JK shocking suspension - Page 4





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  1. #61
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    You Jeep okes are funny, seems the inevitable swop from a Paj to a 4door JK is drawing closer
    [B]Johan Prinsloo

  2. #62
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Quadman View Post
    Hallo it's me again!!
    Time has come for a report back!
    I firstly have to commend Andrew for his professional assistance in this matter. As I am constantly flying all over for business it was difficult setting up a time to have the situation analyzed. Well today was the day.
    I pulled into Andrew's garage and in no time at all he found the problem. The standard Jeep coils have sagged by (I think) 20mm. The other issue was that the wise men who fitted this kit in Roodepoort fitted the rear bump stops the wrong way around. This limited the wheel travel. We decided to turf the standard coils and fit the BDS coils! Man what a difference! It feels like a new vehicle.......
    Again thank you for the brilliant customer care Andrew!
    I now know why they call you BAD SANTA........I walked in thinking I don't need anything else for Swambo's Jeep but I walked out with stuff I never knew I needed, but now I know I needed them all along.......
    Ahh, after all the trivial waffle, Andrew helped his customer, (which he said he would) and low and behold the problem is solved! This thread did however make for some amusing reading! Glad you are sorted Quadman!! Well done Andrew!! Customer service rules!!!

  3. #63
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    Hi, read and read and read, and never seemed to get to the end, so I jumped to the end...

    I have a Sahara 3.8 with OME... is that crap??
    Land Cruiser 79 V8 2015
    Land Cruiser 76 V8 2014

  4. #64
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    I dont think OME is crap at all. Had it on some of our earlier 4x4's. They very popular with the tupperware (toyota) crowd.

    Klein Baas sin - CRF50 with training wheels
    Groot Baas sin - 2016 Ranger 3.2 XLT 4x4 - with some enhancements
    Groot Baas sin - Amarok DC BiTDi 4Motion - With ALL the extra plus RaceChip Pro (SOLD)
    Miesies sin - Jeep JK Wrangler 2 Door - BDS Coils with Zone Nitro Chargers, 35" Bighorns on Mickey Thompson black Side Biters plus other odds 8)
    Groot Baas sin - VW Scirocco TSI - Revotech piggy back - SOLD
    Almal sin - Hummer H3 - Maya the un-stopable
    Miesies sin - Ballistic LTR - 2times SA MX ladies champ
    Groot Baas sin - Ballistic Banshee- strongest 2 stroke in SA
    Groot Baas sin - Ballistic TRX250R - US import with CT 330 motor
    Klein Baas sin - Red Baron 125 Pitbike
    Almal sin - Outbound off road trailer - tricked out

  5. #65
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    OME isn't crap. Lifting a JK 4" with minimal parts is.
    People with OME HD kits on their JK's have been experiencing all sorts of problems.
    Myself (21 years old) and other 'experts' (that send PM's from time to time) have been arguing this case for years now.
    OME realised this too and have updated their kits accordingly for the JK.


  6. #66
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    Estiaan you're right, those are great shocks.
    Used them on 4 of my Cruisers and countless Hilux bakkies.
    Then I found Ironman. Ironman worked even better on our Isuzu's.
    The JK is my first Jeep to upgrade but surely not my first 4x4 and not my first upgrade! The commander was to crap to even try rescueing, the suspension was like "a sofa in the wet". (I must add that I helped my dad around 1994(2nd year student) to build a '68 Gladiator with a rambler V8 and 3 speed box)
    Not mention all our landies from an 88" wheelbase series II (bertha) and many defenders, a disco and then all the way down to Freelanders.
    Even had an old Nissan Patrol which we customised and used to tow our 19' Yeld Cat with. (don't ask me suspension brand, prob some crazy mix)
    Thing is, it took me years to gather info and experience as to what these products/vehicles have to offer.
    I would like to know where you found all your knowledge?
    Was it perhaps the intraweb?
    Just wondering how a 21 year old have all this knowledge on vehicles, suspensions, etc.
    Last edited by Quadman; 2011/11/16 at 08:54 PM.

    Klein Baas sin - CRF50 with training wheels
    Groot Baas sin - 2016 Ranger 3.2 XLT 4x4 - with some enhancements
    Groot Baas sin - Amarok DC BiTDi 4Motion - With ALL the extra plus RaceChip Pro (SOLD)
    Miesies sin - Jeep JK Wrangler 2 Door - BDS Coils with Zone Nitro Chargers, 35" Bighorns on Mickey Thompson black Side Biters plus other odds 8)
    Groot Baas sin - VW Scirocco TSI - Revotech piggy back - SOLD
    Almal sin - Hummer H3 - Maya the un-stopable
    Miesies sin - Ballistic LTR - 2times SA MX ladies champ
    Groot Baas sin - Ballistic Banshee- strongest 2 stroke in SA
    Groot Baas sin - Ballistic TRX250R - US import with CT 330 motor
    Klein Baas sin - Red Baron 125 Pitbike
    Almal sin - Outbound off road trailer - tricked out

  7. #67
    andre` Guest

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    I am also wondering how a 21 year old could have argued this case for years.

  8. #68
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    There's people that value my opinions and input and there's those that don't.
    If youre mature enough to look past my age and take my input and advice without prejudice, good for you. If not, that's your choice too. It doesn't matter to me.
    Last edited by EstianSwanepoel; 2011/11/16 at 11:06 PM.

  9. #69
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    I will lay long money down that 90% of people would not be able to tell one lift from another if you did not tell them what was fitted and just let them drive the vehicles.

    Most people go on price tag and what theyve read on the Internet written by other people that don't know their arse from their elbow never mind under steer from over steer.

    I've just fitted the base zone 4.5" lift to a jk and it is actually a far nicer set up than the 4.5" long arm creaky wobbly long arm kit I drove in a jk the other day.

    I would not have considered a 4.5" lift as all the ones I've driven have been similar , and need an overhaul every 15 minutes because the bushes wore out. But the "cheap" kit seems way better. Obviously it lacks status... But I bet if you weren't able to see the price tag you'd decide it was the expensive one in a blind test.

    Especially if you've never had a lift kit...

  10. #70
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    been an interesting read lol...
    Luke aka Jedi

    1954 Landy Rover Series 1 86"- Rambling Rose
    Best company slogan: Cherrybomb performance exhaust, Disturbing the peace since 1968



  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by EstianSwanepoel View Post
    OME isn't crap. Lifting a JK 4" with minimal parts is.
    People with OME HD kits on their JK's have been experiencing all sorts of problems.
    Myself (21 years old) and other 'experts' (that send PM's from time to time) have been arguing this case for years now.
    OME realised this too and have updated their kits accordingly for the JK.
    Mine just has the 50mm lift... is that a problem with the OME kit?
    Land Cruiser 79 V8 2015
    Land Cruiser 76 V8 2014

  12. #72
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    Light and medium load springs are fine. They only yield 2" of lift, as they should.
    Heavy load yields 4". That's where things start getting messy. Can't lift a JK 4" with coils and shocks and expect everything to work perfectly.

  13. #73
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    KISS...

    keep it simple stupid!! (not you Estian)
    Land Cruiser 79 V8 2015
    Land Cruiser 76 V8 2014

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by EstianSwanepoel View Post
    Light and medium load springs are fine.
    It is important to say this in conjunction with that is fitted to the vehicle, I had BDS medium's in the rear of my Jeep, and just with the steel bumper they cannot handle the load, we are now fitting airsprings tomorrow inside the coils until it can be sorted out.

    But with a stock bumper I am sure it would be fine.

  15. #75
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    Ah, sorry, what I meant with light and medium springs is how the springs are listed in the OME catalogue. I'm referring specifically to OME's "light and medium" coils. Obviously each manufacturer springs have different ratings. One's "medium" coil could be similar to another's "light" coils. Was just referring to OME specifically.

  16. #76
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    I think there is a general misunderstanding of how suspensions work, or even a lack of understanding, even amongst the supposed aeronautical engineers and experts.

    never mind the geometries (and just to clarify, I actually work and design suspensions on a daily basis, not read about them) but the basics of what a shock or spring does seem to be missing from many discussions.

    first of all, a shock provides nearly no suspension action. they suspend nothing. all shocks are in fact gas shocks and all shocks have a very minor amount of 'spring' caused by the compression of the gas within the shock when the shaft is pushed in, and it will force it out, but this is negligble. and thats it as far as suspending action goes. it can't support 20kg. other than that, all they can do is damp the action caused by the motion of the vehicle, which is controlled by the passage of oil through an orifice. this is why they are actually called DAMPERS and not SHOCKS. shock is what you get when you see the price.

    and no, not all dampers are equal, but they have no bearing at all on what is being discussed here.

    blaming your zone/bds/AEV/OME/Ironman/Fox or whatever shocks for sag is just silly. the shock cannot lift or drop the vehicle (unless the spring platform has been moved, but that does not apply here anyway)

    as mentioned, the Wrangler is a pretty simple suspension system, though I'd dispute that aircraft in general have a more complex system. I suppose it depends at what level you are talking, but a Cessna has wheels stuck on struts, hardly anything complex, and even at the very top end an aircraft uses a form of girder fork for suspension - last seen in the automotive world on pre war Harley Davidsons I think. yes it has some hydraulics to put it in and out, and no doubt some exotic electronics on the latest airbus, but the principle is the same. I suspect that the latest Bentley is far more exotic around it's suspension than any plane.

    Basically that was to say, a wrangler has a well proven design of an axle with trailing links and panhard rods. not the best system in the world, but certainly the best for the application, in the same way the pre historic girder system is still the best system to land a plane on.

    plus it has a spring. no pneumatics, no electronically or hydrauically adjustable things to go wrong, it has a simple coil spring. perfect for the application.

    coil springs have a rate. it's measured in Newtons per mm, or kg per cm if you prefer to look at it that way.

    basically, if you take a spring that has a 30N/mm rate and apply a force of 300N it will compress by 10mm

    or, for the non engineers...

    put 30kg on it - it will compress by 1cm
    60kg - 2 cm
    90kg - 3cm.

    easy huh?

    so, if you go and install a 2" lift kit and the rate of the new spring is still 30N/mm all that has changed is that the spring is actually 50mm longer.

    If you put a 50mm spacer under the coil, it will lift by 50mm (depends on leverage and ratios, but as a wrangler has the spring operating directly on the axle this is true)

    you then have issues with the spring becoming coil bound so you need to adjust the bump stop. but the rate in both instances remains the same.

    so if you then put 300kg on the 2 rear springs, the rear will go down by the 50mm you just lifted it by, but it will still be 50mm higher than the original spring would be under the same circumstances.
    Thats it. pretty simple really.

    the Wrangler runs springs of around 30N/mm

    Heavy Duty springs are upgraded run around 35 to 40 N/mm

    put on a heavy bumper - either fit a longer spring of the same rate to compensate, or a 'harder' spring of the same length.

    but if you fit new coils, then add a heap of stuff to the vehicle - it's going to 'sag'

    If you go and drive a buddy's jeep with a 2" lift by manufacturer x, but it's got nothing in it, then compare height and bump through to a jeep with a 2" lift by manufacturer y that has 200kg of stuff in the boot - any comparison of height or perfomrance is a waste of time.

    As a matter of interest jeep install 12 different springs to the JK in the USA depending on spec - I imagine that you can add a few more for the Diesel Euro spec ones too...

    so a 'standard' spring can easily not be the same as another standard spring...
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 2011/11/17 at 10:59 AM.

  17. #77
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    Thanx Apocalypse for the explanation... makes perfect sense....

    As a biker, we often have the same problem, where most offroad machines have a rear shock speced for a 80kg rider... I was last 80kg's 25 years ago, when I couldn't afford one... go figure. So we need to change the rear spring to compensate for increased weight, and presto... the bike works.
    Land Cruiser 79 V8 2015
    Land Cruiser 76 V8 2014

  18. #78
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    I should clarify that if you put on a heavy rear bumper (behind the rear axle) you are 'levering' the springs.

    so what happens is - you reduce load at the front (lift) and transfer that portion to the rear.

    so if the bumper is 60kg more than a standard one - on a level surface it will drop the rear by more than the expected 10mm that 60kg would push the springs down by if it operates directly on the spring.

    so say it lifts the front by 3mm, drops the rear by 13mm or so.

    so how you place your load is critical.

    the nice thing about a JK is the wheels are right back, so load is spread nicely, unlike a twin cab where the rear wheels are ahead of the load area.

    but adding 2 jerry cans, a 37" tyre and lots of steel to support it behind the back axle means you will droop the back more than if it were, for instance, on the roof, while lifting the front.

    so your 4" coils will now lose , say 3" of lift with all the other gumpf in the boot, while your front 4" coils are now making the front ride at 5" up.

    which means that if you did not sort it out when you fitted the kit your castor is now gone completely and you are going to find out what death wobble is...
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 2011/11/17 at 12:39 PM.

  19. #79

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    For those who dont know me I guess i should say i too work each and every day on the development of suspensions for the JK in particular, along with others. Im not just a re seller of products! I work closely with EVO and Full-Traction, so if they can see JKA's credentials and place their products in our hand for RHD development. Than that should speak for its self. " As for Expert i dont know?"


    Apocalypse well put and a good explication of the coil springs and dampeners! Its so true, very few including re salers let al-own thier salesmen on the floor understand the true dynamics and the workings of a suspension system and how vital it is. Getting to the point of the dampener (shocks) and the importance of them. You've explained that point well and reinforces the fact that they have to be suited to the application to control the unsprung and sprung masses.

    You are correct is saying the JK has a very simple system, and in this is its down fall id say. Not enough adjustment. Or self adjustment through design! That said you cant beat it in an off road application. Hens the following.

    The geometries is a valid point you make and would be good to get into. Well knowing your involvement in suspensions, id take it that you would be in agreement with me the that there is no such a thing as "still with in factory spec" after lifting a 4x4 from standard ride hight? And, or some corrective measures need to be done to try get the geometries back. Sure without it may drive or feel fine but it may not be correct, or lets say it could be better, safer and less problematic? The very reason i say on any lift you need to sort out the rear track bar angle, especially on a 2 door. Another point You would understand what happens to the anti squat in a lifted JK as little as 60mm, the very reason a stock JK can out climb a 3" lifted JK on a steep rock face with out corrections in place (my products included with out them in place) When lifting a 4x4 there are many ways it do it and we argue lift kits in the same way as CRD vs V6. No one will win as nether side will say the other is better? Its not about been better they all do the same thing, but more about been comprehensive and complete to sort out the points you raise.

    That brings me to the point that should we not ask the buyer what the Jeep will be used for or what will be add to the Jeep later? Then supply them with the correct coils as you have pointed out in your post Jeep have 12 coils. We have 7 in the 2" range for this very reason. Sure some re sellers will say they ask and do but dont have the correct coil setup in their range. Lets take a CRD running coils that don't have the correct spring rate? What would you say would happen to a coil that has been designed with a spring rate for a V6 and is placed into a CRD? The spring rate is not correct and would sag? As you pointed out rate vs weight. So placing a taller spring in with the same spring rate to compensated for weight, would this still be wrong? according to the maths and your illustration it would be? Would the dampener not work harder to control the sprung weight loaded on the coil bringing on fading of the dampeners? as well as coil bind in some cases because there are to many windings to the coil vs the height they now working in with a shorter bump stop as a longer one cant be used dew to distance, speed and dampening rates causing bottoming out if used. Binding a coil can cause them to sag?

    The setup of the Jeep is critical! It needs to work with a application it will be used for as will as, as many corrective measures need to be done as the budget will allow.

    So in sort i do not think that lifting a JK correctly is a simple process but love every one we do.

  20. #80
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    Well, sure. Any modification is a compromise, and must be properly considered.

    If you want to do it correctly you'd lift the body off the chassis and replace the whole lot.

    but you can carry on forever to a guy about all kinds of angles and just either confuse or leave him with the impression he knows something about it all, especially if he's perused the internet for the rest of his knowledge, which is somewhere between irritating and dangerous.

    and if he is blaming the shock absorbers for a drop in the ride height, you probably need to get that straightened out before discussing geometry....

    Edit - not directed to you at all Shane by the way. but some people DO things, and some people talk a lot about doing them, and how much they want to do them, and how everyone else should be doing them, but they have no experience and no knowledge worth having...
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 2011/11/17 at 04:29 PM.

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