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  1. #1
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    Default Deep Water Crossing!!

    What should you do to your vehicle before and after doing a deep/deepish water crossing (lets say just under the headlights 900mm to 1000mm). Just below the air intake+- (without a snorkel)

    Areas of concern are:

    Electrics
    Cooling Visous Fan
    All pullies and belts
    Water getting into the bell housing
    Water getting into the chassis and cross members
    Wheel bearings

    blah blah blah...

    Lets just hope the doors seal.
    Last edited by Ubermarc; 2011/07/23 at 09:40 PM.
    Marc
    2003 Colt Rodeo D/C 2.8TDi 4x4
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  2. #2
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    Ubermarc,

    A)Avoid water that deep

    If point "A" is not possible then:

    1)Use a car bra - in other words drape a piece of canvas over the front of your car, this prevents water from getting into your engine bay
    2)Extend the gearbox and diff breathers up into the top of your engine bay - some guys even stick fuel filters on the end of those breathers as a nice extra touch.
    3)Give the car a well earned service as soon as the expedition is over. The cost of new oil for engine, box and diffs is minimal compared to damage to any of those units.

    The wheels and chassis and stuff is designed to operate in foul weather, so should be semi OK after the crossing.

    The driving technique of deep crossings is another topic worth discussion as well.

    Roelf

  3. #3
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    Vehicles arent designed to go through very deep water continuously , yet some do with the aid of a snorkel and some other measures.
    But you very seldom hear the after effects later down the line.
    Bushes, bearings, starter motors, alternators ( the lower mounted ones)springs, lights and all the mud that gets into your under carriage, thats a battle to detect and get out.
    Sooner than later some of these issues will crop up.
    If you get the maintenance done asap , there will be a less chance of serious permanent damage.
    Just above the center of the hub is a guide for me.


    This is just opinions from some of the people i speak to with this type of experience.
    ORA
    Last edited by OFFROAD ADDICT; 2011/07/24 at 09:57 AM.
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    Ian is right. The more obvious damage from some of my water crossing and mud sessions are the immediate filling of lights and spots with mud and water. That chrome on the reflectors get eaten away in a matter of days and renders that light useless. I have two Hello Comet 500 in that state at the moment. I have lost an alternator that has been eaten up by mud on the inside. I now have constant problems with the rear oil seal on all three my alternators that pump out my oil after just three or four months. (diesel engine has vacuum pump on the rear of the alternator).

    So far I have been lucky and not once found water in any gearbox, transfer case or diff. A buddy of mine with a Hilux has however lost a front diff (oil was white with water), as well as both front wheel bearings. The shafts seem to have been reduced in size by the mud so that the seals never worked properly again. After every bit of water he drove after that, he had to service the wheel bearing.

    Water inside the cab is another bugger. It takes around three weeks to dry out the carpets. A long time more to get the smell out of them. After more than three years after my drowning, my carpets still start smelling when they get wet.

    Radios and speakers actually do dry out enough to be used again...

    Things you don't usually check and that gave me a wake up call last week, was my CV joints. I popped a CV boot (outer), and upon replacing the boot, I changed the inner at the same due to the work involved to get the drive shafts out. When I took the inner boot off, it was filled with water and the grease had gone white and milky already.
    David/Hillbilly - 1997 SFA Nissan Sani 2,7 TD - 5" lift on 33" tires - Dual Transfer with 4.1 gears

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  5. #5
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    Thanks, guys.

    I've been doing lots of research about it and alot of people only think about the snorkel.

    Yes you don't wanna suck up any water and kill your engine instantly, but even if you make it through the water, have you started the clock for the time bomb?

    I just want to be prepaired if the day comes, that I need to cross some deep water. I'd hate to have to turn arround half way on an outing.

    What driving techniques can you recommend, apart from;

    If you don't want to walk it, don't drive it!
    The correct speed, and try not to stop.
    Marc
    2003 Colt Rodeo D/C 2.8TDi 4x4
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    The speed is probably the more important part of the equation. If the surface is good enough to keep your speed up enough to create a nice bow wave, you have first prize. My drowning came about after I lost traction in a big hole with not enough articulation to keep traction on all the wheels. The moment I lost drive, the water washed back into the engine compartment and into the engine. Until then I had no water in the cab, but standing still with a locked up engine, the water came in through the doors and gearlever rubbers.

    I think our 4x4's are time bombs in many more respects than just water damage. But with a proper servicing schedule and adequate preventative maintenance you should be ok. I think a lot more guys became technically inclined due to 4x4ing than most other hobbies (ways of life). I always drove my cars till things fell off, that way I knew what the problem was. Now I have to think ahead, read of experiences of others on sites like this and keep the van in a good condition to prevent things going wrong later.

    Usually when things go wrong, they take take a few other parts along for good measure. Catching things early, could save you money in the long run.

    Just as a final point and seeing as snorkels have not been mentioned at all here, I have to say that if I had a snorkel on my van that day, I would have saved the engine. It may just have given me the time to get over the cross axle and get some traction to continue on my way. Even if I had taken in a bit of water, at least that I can dry out and be on my way.
    David/Hillbilly - 1997 SFA Nissan Sani 2,7 TD - 5" lift on 33" tires - Dual Transfer with 4.1 gears

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  7. #7
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    Hey David Howzit

    what you say is correct, but the snorkel issue, still has a lot of questions to it.
    The snorkel if fitted properly should do the job.
    We did an exercise one day, of about 6 different vehicles, cruisers ,Jeeps and Landys . We blocked the inlet part of the snorkel and about 80% of there engines were still running.
    This pointed to the fact there was some places where air was coming in. Now when you are in water , this is what you dont want.
    I think the snorkels better use is collecting clean cool air while driving on and offroad.

    The other water problem is with the hot diff.
    I understand and have no facts, but a few have said so. If you are going to go through deep water, let the diff cool down. I dont know if it is directed at both diffs.
    Something to do with cold water hitting a hot diff. Serius damage can be caused.
    What damage , i cant say. I hope some one on the forum can shed some light on this, or it could be a myth.
    ORA
    ORA
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    Ian

  8. #8
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    If you do a search on "wading", there have been a number of threads on this - here's something I posted in November, 2008 on the issue:

    Here's a piece I wrote for Out There magazine in 1996 on river crossings. You may want to paste it as the start of a sticky. Note that this was written when most vehicles only had basic electronics, so on newer vehicles, things have changed:

    DEEP water river crossings are among the most dangerous of all off road driving hazards. If you have any doubt about a river crossing, don't do it. Find an alternative route, or wait for another vehicle to come along. Solo crossings are very dangerous. And, when crossing a river, always prepare yourself for the worst possible scenario.

    You MUST walk the route before driving it. If a river is flowing strongly enough to make you lose your footing, then it will be dangerous for your vehicle. Check for big boulders, holes, tree stumps and other obstacles. If necessary, remove boulders. Mark obstacles with stakes, or have a passenger stand by them.

    If the river you are approaching is in flood because of a recent rain storm, sit back, brew up some tea, and wait it out. River levels drop very quickly in most parts of Africa after rain, and a raging torrent in the morning may be a few drying up puddles in the afternoon. Mark the high water mark with a stick or stone, and watch the rate at which the water level drops -- this will give you a good idea of whether or not it is worth waiting out the flood waters. If necessary, camp the night well above the flood mark.

    Make sure that the exit point on the opposite bank is driveable, and if not, repair it.

    VEHICLE PREPARATIONS

    There are two danger points on petrol engines: The air intake and the high voltage ignition system, starting with the coil, which kicks out an intermittent, very high voltage, low amperage charge through the distributor, or electronic ignition, to the spark plugs.

    This is a “Loskop” charge and is easily side tracked, short circuited or even drowned: Even a light splash is enough to cause misfiring, or total cutout.

    On diesel engines, with no high voltage system, there is no danger of drowning the electrics: But this is what makes diesels susceptible to catastrophic water damage -- the engine will be happily ticking over and water will suddenly enter the air intake, and get sucked into the ignition/compression system, causing irreversible damage.

    On both petrol and diesel engines then, it is the air filter intakes which are the real danger points for engine damage. On "professional" petrol 4X4s, the air intake is always higher than the ignition system, providing a safety cutout system. A diesel engine fitted with an extension wading "snorkel" can often go so deep through the water that the biggest danger is that the driver starts floating and can no longer reach the pedals.

    Damage can also be caused by water leakage through oil dip sticks, oil filter breathers, and breathers on axles, diffs and drain plugs on clutch bell housings.

    BEFORE ENTERING THE WATER:

    1 Loosen or remove the fan belt: This stops water being thrown into the electrical system, and prevents fan blades from being driven into the radiator core by water pressure.

    2 Seal all electrics on petrol engines with rubber boots (this should be standard equipment). If you don't have the necessary boots, use thick plastic bags. A greased rubber surgical glove with the tips of the fingers cut off can be used for four cylinder engines. Greased condoms with their tips cut off and secured with elastic bands also work. Coat the battery terminals with loads of grease.

    3 Spray all electrical components with Q-20, WD40 or other water dispersant or grease them. Keep the Q-20 can handy.

    4 Secure a sack or canvas sheet across the bull bar or radiator grille.

    5 Make sure your rescue equipment is close at hand -- tow cables, shackles, spanners, tools. If the water flow is strong, you may want to consider securing a long tow rope to the front or rear of the vehicle. As you drive, a passenger feeds out or pulls in the rope, using a tree as an anchor. Then, if the vehicle rolls over or the engine is drowned, the rope can quickly be lashed around the tree to prevent total loss of the vehicle.

    On extreme crossings, and if you have the equipment, you can consider stringing a wire cable upstream of the vehicle, with shorter running cables connected to the front and rear of the vehicle with D-shackles.

    6 If you have two vehicles, connect with a tow rope, so the one on dry land can tow the other out of difficulty. If one of the vehicles is fitted with a winch, attach the winch cable of the rear vehicle to the one attempting the crossing. Pay the cable out carefully as the lead vehicle crosses, ready for a crisis. Once they are across, they can return the favour.

    7 Seal your axle breathers. If your clutch bell housing has a drain hole, seal it. (Some vehicles come equipped with a clutch plug). If the engine has a turbo charger, allow it to cool off before attempting to wade.

    8 If the bottom is sandy or muddy, deflate your tyres.

    9 Finally, before entering the water, remove everything off the floor and seats that could be damaged by water. If the water is very deep, you may have to unpack the vehicle and carry goods which could be damaged -- clothes, cameras, dry food stocks -- across by hand.

    CROSSING:

    If the water is above the bottom of your door frames, you must open two doors for the crossing. This allows the water to flow through the vehicle, rather than turn the vehicle into a floating box which will lift the wheels off the bottom, and make you run the risk of turning turtle because of an unbalanced vehicle.

    Unless you elect to go through at high speed, DO NOT wear a safety belt: Should the vehicle roll over, you run the risk of drowning if you are strapped in.

    Slow and steady is the motto. DO NOT CHANGE GEAR ONCE IN THE WATER: WATER WILL ENTER THE CLUTCH PLATE AND CAUSE THE CLUTCH TO SLIP LEADING TO POTENTIALLY DISASTROUS LOSS OF TRACTION. Select your gear in advance -- low range second or first are probably your best options, depending on the severity of the crossing.

    Proceed at a steady, fast walking pace -- this sets up a bow wave in front of the vehicle, accentuated by your canvas sheet or sack, pushing the water to the side. Once you are up and running, there is no stopping, steady momentum is essential. If you are lucky enough, the wake will catch up with you at just the right moment to give you an extra bump from the rear to shove you out of the water onto the far bank.

    If for any reason you should lose power by hitting an obstacle, spinning the wheels or dropping into a hole, and the bow wave overtakes you, you don't have a second to lose:

    If there is any danger of the water rising to the level of the engine air intake or manifold, immediately switch off the engine, even before momentum is lost. Isolate the batteries. If this is not done, a short circuit in the starter motor can cause the engine to turn over and suck water into the cylinders. Do not attempt to restart the engine unless you are certain no water has been sucked into the cylinders. If the water has risen higher than the inlet and exhaust valves or if your air intake is wet, then you have to assume water has got into the combustion chambers.

    If you can recover the vehicle without restarting the engine, then do so, rather than risk the possibility of damaging the engine.

    Hopefully, you will make it safely to the other side, secure the fan belt and remove any temporary shielding you may have attached. If the water was very deep, you will need to check all your transmission oils for water contamination, and change them if necessary. If the water leakage is limited, it is possible to tap off the water, as oil will float on top of the water. If your engine oil is a greyish, milky colour, you will have to change it completely. Dry out your brakes by applying repeated gentle pressure while driving slowly.

    RECOVERING A DROWNED VEHICLE:

    We sincerely hope you will never need to use this advice.

    Get the vehicle out of the water as soon as possible by towing or winching. Place rocks behind the wheels, release the hand brake and engage neutral, open all doors and windows and unpack the vehicle, checking for water damage.

    You might as well set up camp. Let the vehicle stand for an hour or two for the oils to settle.

    Check the sump, diffs and transmission oils (and turbocharger, if fitted) for contamination by loosening the drain plugs and allowing the water to drip out (oil floats on water). If the oil is milky, then it has emulsified with the oil. Leave the oil to stand in the vehicle for a couple of hours, then drain it and leave the oil and water standing to separate out. If it does not lose its milkiness, replace with fresh oil.

    Check all your fuel tanks for water by loosening the drain plugs and draining off water until pure fuel emerges. If there is water in any of the fuel tanks, check all filters, lines and pumps for contamination. In diesels, carefully check the primary sediment bowl.

    Remove and thoroughly drain and dry all electrical motors and check all electrical fittings for water. On petrol engines, remove and dry out the distributor cap and internal components.

    Dry out the air filter. If any moisture is found in the air intake, you have to assume there is water in the cylinders. Even a very small amount can be enough to damage a high performance engine. If your filter is an oil-bath type, change the oil if it is milky. If it is a paper element filter, change the filter if it is wet.

    Dry out everything you can: Combustion chamber passages, HT leads, battery compartments etc.

    If you have even the slightest suspicion that water has entered the cylinders, you must continue with the following procedures: These are rough guidelines, and may differ for different makes of vehicles, so carefully check your own workshop manual for any specific references. The procedures are different for diesel and petrol:

    PETROL ENGINES:

    Take out all the spark plugs, and if the electrics are dry, reconnect and turn the engine in short bursts of not more than two revolutions at a time (literally a split second crank). If the electrics are still wet, use a crank handle, or jack up the back wheels, and turn one of the wheels while in second gear.

    As the engine cranks, water will shoot out of the plug holes. Carry on doing this until all the water is out, then replace all the dried out components, reconnect the electrics and start the engine. Leave it running until warm and listen carefully for strange noises -- and keep sniffing the air for weird smells.

    DIESEL ENGINES:

    WARNING: Keep your face clear of the engine when following this procedure, as any diesel or water expelled will come out under high pressure.

    Remove all the fuel lines and injectors. Place them clear of dirt, in such a way as to drain any water out. Do not tamper with the injectors -- that's a job for professionals. Turn the engine as for petrol engines until no more water comes out of the chambers.

    Dry the injector ports and replace them, carefully following workshop manual specs on seating and torque, bleed the fuel system, refit air filters and intakes, connect electrics and start up. Listen for strange noises, and check for leaks around all the joints and bleed screws.

    As soon as possible, get your vehicle to qualified service personnel for a complete checkup, oil and hydraulic fluid change and an all-round flush and clean of fuel and hydraulic lines.

    It's very complicated, so rather than try a dangerous crossing, rather just park off on the bank of the river and do some birding and wait for the river to drop. It's much more fun than trying to salvage a drowned vehicle.

  9. #9
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    Thanks Tony, alot of excellent information!

    I plan to do a drive through Baviaans Kloof on Sunday the 7th and Monday the 8th August.

    They say there is alot of water at the moment, and we are having good rains today and more predicted for tomorrow. Hopefully the levels won't be as high as what we have been talking about, but I just don't want be take it lightly. I have done the trip anumber of times on my bike, with some nice water, but also completely different.

    Does anybody know how deep it can get in the kloof (water level)?

    Thanks again
    Marc
    2003 Colt Rodeo D/C 2.8TDi 4x4
    32" BFG A/T
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    Amazing info Tony, thanks. I have one thing I would like to add (from expensive experience), the initial hydraulic lock can and does cause damage (diesel engine in this case), but at very low RPM you could just get away with it (as told to me by a diesel mechanic). What I would stress regarding the removal of water from a diesel engine is that your start the turning of the motor by hand and NOT on the starter. You are trying to expel up to 500Ml of water through a 10mm hole, and on the starter, it is just way to quick.

    Ian, when I built my snorkel, I checked it a few times for seal. Up to roof level I could kill the engine by blocking the intake. The head has some water "dispersing" holes and channels that will prevent a solid seal if the head is just blocked off.

    I personally have my dip stick blocked off with a pipe, and the dipstick gets hauled around in the cab under the seat. My diff breathers along with gearbox and transfer case all come together under the bonnet against the firewall. What I also prefer to do with my viscous fan unit, is to brace it with a simple rope setup that prevents it from spinning. That way I don't have to remove two fan belts, one of which drives my power steering, the other my alternator. The other reason is that I would prefer my water pump to still be active even thought the fan is not running.
    Last edited by bfreesani; 2011/07/25 at 07:47 PM.
    David/Hillbilly - 1997 SFA Nissan Sani 2,7 TD - 5" lift on 33" tires - Dual Transfer with 4.1 gears

    http://www.youtube.com/user/davidabcab



  11. #11
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    Thanks David

    I like that bit about the fan and belts, makes alot of sense!

    Do you think the conversion to electric fan would survive getting dunked under water?

    Just a note. This is all about knowledge building, I'm not planning any stupid submarine expiditions
    Marc
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  12. #12
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    Tony after reading your post, a person going through deep water needs their head read.
    Thanks for that informative post although, most is already known, but all in one big go is very direct and informative.
    ORA
    ORA
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    Ian

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    Default Wading

    A very wise man once told me - If you want to play in water, buy a boat...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defenderman View Post
    A very wise man once told me - If you want to play in water, buy a boat...
    I think it should rather be read as " if you want to go through water, use a boat"
    ORA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defenderman View Post
    A very wise man once told me - If you want to play in water, buy a boat...
    "like button... Clicked"
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    Quote Originally Posted by OFFROAD ADDICT View Post
    Hey David Howzit


    The other water problem is with the hot diff.
    I understand and have no facts, but a few have said so. If you are going to go through deep water, let the diff cool down. I dont know if it is directed at both diffs.
    Something to do with cold water hitting a hot diff. Serius damage can be caused.
    What damage , i cant say. I hope some one on the forum can shed some light on this, or it could be a myth.
    ORA

    What happens is that when the diff cools, the air inside "shrinks" and it then "sucks" through the breather. If the breather is under water, it will suck in a lot of water.


    Cooling the diff before the crossing will prevent this or at least reduce the amount of water that will enter.

    C
    If you ain't livin on the edge, you're taking up too much space!

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    Why would anyone want to put a R500K vehicle into a place where only a boat should be?
    He who dares nothing need hope nothing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petronella View Post
    Why would anyone want to put a R500K vehicle into a place where only a boat should be?
    Read your own signature, that's why...
    Interresting thread, thanks for the usefull info. (This one is going into my car emergency file)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petronella View Post
    Why would anyone want to put a R500K vehicle into a place where only a boat should be?
    Petro,

    Sometimes you simply have no choice. The river crossings in Moremi, etc. are prime examples. We had pretty high water levels in June last year, and most of the bridges were not usable.

    They were constructing new bridges whilst we were there. I wonder if anyone knows whether they had all been completed yet?

    But, I do agree - avoid as far as possible. I lost an electric fan in Moremi. Fortunately had some really nifty bush mechanics with me and we had the Jeeps fan fixed and running in no time (sacrificed a toaster in the process).
    Last edited by Jean Kotze; 2011/07/26 at 02:58 PM.
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    Tony,

    Awsome post.

    I am in the process of developing an internal driver training manual for our club. I have compared your comments with what we have to date. There are some issues that you have noted that I would like to include in our manual.

    Do you mind if I quote some of what you have said? Do you want me to list you as reference?

    In some cases you cannot and should not walk a river/stream crossing for safety purposes - rivers that have crocodiles, etc.

    We recommend that, in such cases, that you tie the vehicles together, with the most capable vehicles in front and back. The front vehicle then slowly wades through the water, and if stuck, gets pulled back, a new line is taken, etc. until a good line is found for crossing the river/stream. The vehicles then drives through and can either be pulled through or backwards.

    In cases where the possibility of vehicle drowning or other damage is probable, those vehicles are then simply pulled through.

    Your thoughts on this?
    Last edited by Jean Kotze; 2011/07/26 at 02:57 PM.
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