ULTIMATE Petrol vs Diesel thread - Comparisons - Page 15





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  1. #281
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    Just a reminder that I do have a graph for a Jeep diesel.
    I just need someone to match which box to the diesel, and which box to the petrol in:
    http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/...4&postcount=83

    That's a diesel and a petrol graph, with 2 gearboxes. Everything is from WK model Jeeps.
    I just don't know which gearbox (from the text file, also from WK) goes with the diesel WK, and which gearbox goes with the petrol WK.
    SWAMBO
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    Eurard: For T=2; T=1 but, 1/2T=

  2. #282
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    @RedLineR
    Do you perhaps plan on comparing the Nissan Hardbody 3.3V6 with the 3TD16V?
    Engine capacity is very close, so it could be a very good comparison, perhaps?


    2007 Nissan Navara 4L Auto - Worshond


  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wetkit View Post
    @RedLineR
    Do you perhaps plan on comparing the Nissan Hardbody 3.3V6 with the 3TD16V?
    Engine capacity is very close, so it could be a very good comparison, perhaps?
    If you can supply torque curves for them, I'd be very happy to!
    SWAMBO
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  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThysleRoux View Post
    but just for interest sake, how do you force an automatic to stay in 4th or 5th gear ?

    Thys,

    you may not find it on those American gearboxes that use technology from the 70's, but modern auto boxes all have "manual override". Many of them even have flappy paddle controls on the steering wheel.

    The standard for the "old" boxes was that you only had a "manual" setting for 1st & 2nd (which was ok when you wanted to pull away in second to prevent "digging in" in sand), but new ones give you control of ALL the gears.

    C
    If you ain't livin on the edge, you're taking up too much space!

  5. #285
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    Where are the Jeep experts?!?!?

    I still need an answer on:
    http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/...4&postcount=83
    please!
    Which gearbox goes with the diesel engine in the WK,
    or which gearbox goes with the petrol?
    Either answer is fine, then it's simple process of elimination.
    SWAMBO
    2009 Suzuki Grand Vitara 3.2i V6 Auto
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    Eurard: For T=2; T=1 but, 1/2T=

  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Africa View Post
    Thys,
    you may not find it on those American gearboxes that use technology from the 70's, but modern auto boxes all have "manual override". Many of them even have flappy paddle controls on the steering wheel.
    The standard for the "old" boxes was that you only had a "manual" setting for 1st & 2nd (which was ok when you wanted to pull away in second to prevent "digging in" in sand), but new ones give you control of ALL the gears.
    C
    The autoboxes used in the Toy's are even more archaic than the semi intelligent autobox used in my 2000 MY Jeep and definitely do not have a function to hold the box in a higher ratio than the ECU will determine as optimum, as per the calculations in question. I accept why RedL did the graphs this way, as it is impossible to calculate when the autobox will shif down. Furthermore, all real autoboxes, will override the manual choice once certain parameters have been exceeded, especially on downshifts. I don't know what the case is for a DSG type box, which is essentially a manual gearbox with auto changes and clutch, but none of the off road vehicles compared in this thread has those fitted.

    @ Fluffy:
    Hi All,

    What happened here. This thread was going like a boeing. But it has now been 4 days since some activity. Where are the Petrol guys.

    Could it be the fact that I pointed out, and I believe largely proved that -

    1/. Many of the new vehicles are only available in Diesel.

    2/. With the ones that are available in Diesel and Petrol the Diesels are usually cheaper.

    3/. If you buy new with a service contract, its a no brainer, Diesel is WAY cheaper, and thats without factoring in the Petrols terrible resale value.

    4/. If you factor in high altitude where the lions share of the vehicles in this country are, the Petrols are DEAD in the water on performance.

    Makes you think doesnt it.

    Cheers
    Keith
    The above makes me even more glad that I live in civilization

  7. #287
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    Apoc,

    Have a look at this one.
    It's the 3.6 GC vs the 5.7 GC.

    Check what happens if you ditch the standard 3.06 diffs on the V6 and stick the 3.46'ers in there.

    I want to try and get the GV in there, so I can compare from a performance base that I'm familiar with.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Attached Files Attached Files
    SWAMBO
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    Eurard: For T=2; T=1 but, 1/2T=

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Hi All,

    What happened here. This thread was going like a boeing. But it has now been 4 days since some activity. Where are the Petrol guys.

    Could it be the fact that I pointed out, and I believe largely proved that -

    1/. Many of the new vehicles are only available in Diesel.

    2/. With the ones that are available in Diesel and Petrol the Diesels are usually cheaper.

    3/. If you buy new with a service contract, its a no brainer, Diesel is WAY cheaper, and thats without factoring in the Petrols terrible resale value.

    4/. If you factor in high altitude where the lions share of the vehicles in this country are, the Petrols are DEAD in the water on performance.



    Makes you think doesnt it.

    Cheers
    Keith
    Lack of info
    I've requested a torque curve from Toyota for the Prado, so I can compare it with the Jeep.
    But the lack of torque curves makes it impossible for me to expand the first page
    I do still have to update it with the latest sheet though.

    1) Evidence will be required. Since the GV and GC are petrol only?

    2) Only examples so far are the Toyotas and the Audis I think?

    3) If you do lots of km or plan on selling it once the maintenance runs out. If you do lots of km, you can use the saving to pay for any ad hoc catastrophes, so you can keep it after motorplan has run out. I do very little km.

    4) Did you see the petrol still whips the diesel at altitude? The Pajero's anyways.
    Last edited by RedLineR; 2011/04/19 at 08:53 PM.
    SWAMBO
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    Eurard: For T=2; T=1 but, 1/2T=

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedLineR View Post
    Apoc,
    Have a look at this one.
    It's the 3.6 GC vs the 5.7 GC.
    Check what happens if you ditch the standard 3.06 diffs on the V6 and stick the 3.46'ers in there.
    I want to try and get the GV in there, so I can compare from a performance base that I'm familiar with.
    well, okay, but then (a) your motor runs quite high when cruising... (b) you will thus invalidate your warranty on the motor, drive shafts, diff and gearbox, if not the whole vehicle (c) I imagine this will push up consumption and (d) you add at least R25k to your purchase price....

    V6 is R532k base model, overland R582k, V8 R638k....

    seems to me if you are going to mess with the V6, you may as well just get the V8...

  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    well, okay, but then (a) your motor runs quite high when cruising... (b) you will thus invalidate your warranty on the motor, drive shafts, diff and gearbox, if not the whole vehicle (c) I imagine this will push up consumption and (d) you add at least R25k to your purchase price....

    V6 is R532k base model, overland R582k, V8 R638k....

    seems to me if you are going to mess with the V6, you may as well just get the V8...
    I agree, but it is interesting to see what a change in the diff ratio does for the vehicle!
    Just looking at the curves as-is, it seems like the V6 is suffering due to over-gearing. The 3.46 is also too much of a change, but the 3.06 is just too much for the V6 to handle.
    I just got an email from Suzuki SA, with a nice torque curve for the zook. Gonna punch that in tonight and put it up against the V6 Jeep.
    Last edited by RedLineR; 2011/04/20 at 11:46 AM.
    SWAMBO
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    Eurard: For T=2; T=1 but, 1/2T=

  11. #291
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    Default Nissan NP300 2.5dci vs 2.4i

    Here is my version of these two vehicles. I can't guarantee the accuracy because it is based on graphs I found all over the interweb.

    Redliner, You are welcome to fix and change the format since I plagiarized your original spreadsheet. I would appreciate your interpretation as well.

    In my opinion these two vehicles are very evenly matched.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Boyscout; 2011/04/21 at 12:04 PM.
    Deon Viljoen
    Boyscout

    2012 Land Rover Defender 90 2.2 Tdci S/W Sold
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    2003 D2 GS TD5 Auto sold at 165000km
    1999 D2 GS V8 Auto sold at 178000km

  12. #292
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    Very nice and thanks Boyscout!!!!
    I'll stick those figures into the new sheet this week end!!!
    You can find it on Page 14 if you want to have a look.
    It does graphs and fancy stuff in addition.

    This will definitely go on Page1.
    All credit to you for gathering the info!
    SWAMBO
    2009 Suzuki Grand Vitara 3.2i V6 Auto
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    Eurard: For T=2; T=1 but, 1/2T=

  13. #293
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    This thread has been a real eye-opener.
    Thanks RedLineR.

    Now if I can only find a diesel Jimny's torque curve...

  14. #294
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    I am always amazed at people finding the time to do such hard work which is interesting. However, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. When we go out driving no petrol can match a diesel when it comes to idle speed driving over serious obstacles. I mean for a 3.0 diesel you need at least a 5 litre+ petrol to compare!
    I went out with some guys to Landcruizer Park. One a 4L Petrol Hilux and a 3l Diesel. The obstacle was Telecom Hill, a large rocky hill. The petrol nearly rolled as it needed to be revved to 1500+ rpm not to stall and the diesel at idle could do it. Traction was lost or the clutch had to be used excessively which is dangerous as it cause jerky driving. Owner bragged he is on clutch 3 @ 50'000km! Remember paper is patient. Change the calculations to 650/750 rpm and see the results then.
    We all know at speed the petrol outperform or do they? How come the Le Mans has been won by Diesels lately?
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  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jengel View Post
    Change the calculations to 650/750 rpm and see the results then.
    We all know at speed the petrol outperform or do they? How come the Le Mans has been won by Diesels lately?
    Torque curves don't extend that far down, but it can be seen that the turbo diesels have no boost down there, and the petrols do yield more torque anywhere below 1500rpm.
    Also, the petrols gain larger advantages through gearing, hence a petrol has more torque at the wheels than the equivalent turbo diesel at rpm below 1500rpm.
    There is no reason to expect a TD to deliver more torque from 650-1000rpm, and suddenly take sharp dive, and generate less torque than the petrol from 1000-1500rpm. Those would require massive changes in torque over very tiny rpm ranges.
    Yes, I know people love the "proof is in the pudding", but science doesn't lie, nor do the facts.
    I know people would like to believe differently, and they're free to do so, but this does not change the facts unfortunately.

    Yes, the Le Mans are won by a TD these days. I had a look at the criteria for turbo diesels and petrols in the Le Mans rulebook though. And I don't think the rules and regulations can be anymore biased to turbo diesels than they are currently. That aside, one cloud does not a rain storm make.

    To me, feelings count for nothing. As driver skill could easily swing an observation one way or the other. Objective facts and figures are the only thing that counts and carries any weight.

    If I made mistake in the formulas or the numeration of the torque curves, I'll stand corrected, and indeed correct the error. I wouldn't even be surprised if I made a mistake somewhere. Hence I submitted the calculations for review. But up to this point no one could highlight any errors.

    But, I would really like to thank you for taking the time to atleast look at what's presented. In the end, I cannot ask for more. It gives food for thought, and that in itself is already a win!
    SWAMBO
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    Eurard: For T=2; T=1 but, 1/2T=

  16. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedLineR View Post
    Apoc,
    Have a look at this one.
    It's the 3.6 GC vs the 5.7 GC.
    Check what happens if you ditch the standard 3.06 diffs on the V6 and stick the 3.46'ers in there.
    I want to try and get the GV in there, so I can compare from a performance base that I'm familiar with.
    Why is the Jeeps drivetrain loss 22 % and the Pajero 25 % ?

  17. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgoosen View Post
    Why is the Jeeps drivetrain loss 22 % and the Pajero 25 % ?
    The drivetrain loss, is not only drivetrain loss.
    It also includes losses through things like your alternator, exhaust system etc. since some certification specs do not demand that the engine be certified as it is in the vehicle.
    Now there seems to be some different standards one can certify engine output to. Some DIN specs and SAE specs for instance.
    I have to compensate for this, and I use the drivetrain loss parameter.
    By changing the drivetrain loss I can check things like the 0-100 time for instance. I can then use the drivetrain loss to calibrate the set of figures to actual known values.

    In addition, drivetrain losses do actually differ from drivetrain to drivetrain. But this is not a published figure for any manufacturer, hence I need to check known performance figures, and change the drivetrain loss to suit.
    SWAMBO
    2009 Suzuki Grand Vitara 3.2i V6 Auto
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    Eurard: For T=2; T=1 but, 1/2T=

  18. #298
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    Just a quick thought on a possible cause for a Pajero to have more drivetrain losses: The independent suspension means more universal joints.

  19. #299
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    I redid the Afrikana research ship's electrical drive system a few years ago. The 3 x 6 cylinder diesels run at 650rpm driving large 1000kva generators. They produce 1200kw @ 650 rpm each with turbo's at full blast (2.5 bar pressure) at 650rpm! Look at the trukking industry - torque range from 900 to 2000 rpm. Funny that I don't see petrol engines in these activities. How come the diesels are taking over especially in the 4 wd business. Are the manufacturers that stupid. Time that some people get themselves some real 4x4's and go out and do the real world out of the cities!
    I'm not saying petrol engined vehicles are that bad, but each have their specific area of use. When it comes to low speed rough terrain work like we do, the diesel don't need turbo pressure to outperform a petrol - it's perfectly suited for that market. When you drive like hell (Herman . . .and the flying Safari) then you need a petrol.
    Strange you need about a 4 litre petrol to match a 3 litre diesel??
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  20. #300
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    Jengel, sure you need a 4 liter petrol to match a 3 liter Diesel.. lets see what happens if we lob the Turbo off of the diesel and cut the knees from it..


    1990 Toyota Hilux - In process..
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