ULTIMATE Petrol vs Diesel thread - Comparisons - Page 9





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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeinrichC View Post
    Just over 15% of all passenger cars sold last year were diesels...

    Boy, do I know what it feels like to be in the minority.
    LOL, And if you add all the vehicles you listed together? What's the diesel and petrol percentages? And no backing down now. You went out to make a lekka 5 post spam, now it's time to face the music.
    For diesel to be big fish in a small pond, is not inspiring.

    Not that I consider sales figures a measure of performance anyways. But hey! Feel free to misquote me any day.

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    Last edited by RedLineR; 2011/03/31 at 07:15 PM.
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  2. #162
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    The reason I posted more that one post is due to the stats system I am using delivering the stats in more than one return and I was a bit laizy to wait for all the stats to return and compile one post.

    Looking at total passenger cars and include the double cabs in that; more that 75% are petrol... For info less than 1% are hybrids

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedLineR View Post
    LOL, And if you add all the vehicles you listed together? What's the diesel and petrol percentages? And no backing down now. You went out to make a lekka 5 post spam, now it's time to face the music.
    For diesel to be big fish in a small pond, is not inspiring.

    Not that I consider sales figures a measure of performance anyways. But hey! Feel free to misquote me any day.

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    If you want to say something, and you can't say it in a single post... It's not worth saying...


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  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan01 View Post
    I did that same calculation and I know the Diesel Fortuner's still has a short service interval of 10,000km compared to the 15,000km on the V6 but looking at my calc you should recover the R20,000 more for diesel model in less than 24 months. (That is if my calculations are correct.)
    Just less than 24 months.
    And for those who don't want to open the sheet. He drives 27 000km per year.
    I believe the book value average to be somewhere between 15-20k km per annum.
    So the average driver is looking at 3 years, before he starts saving, which I think is also about the time the warranty runs out, and people start looking to trade their vehicle.

    So without stretching the imagination, it could be said, that there is a very real possibility that the average person could buy a diesel, and trade it, before they've saved a cent.
    But, I'll freely admit, that with the amounts of kilos you're doing, a diesel is definitely worth investigating.
    Last edited by RedLineR; 2011/03/31 at 07:27 PM.
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  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeinrichC View Post
    The reason I posted more that one post is due to the stats system I am using delivering the stats in more than one return and I was a bit laizy to wait for all the stats to return and compile one post.

    Looking at total passenger cars and include the double cabs in that; more that 75% are petrol... For info less than 1% are hybrids
    So after 5 posts of "diesel sold so many vehicles!", only 24% of the vehciles sold were actually diesel? 3 times less than petrols? Or, petrols sold 300% better than diesels?

    ok
    Last edited by RedLineR; 2011/03/31 at 07:28 PM.
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    Correct me if I am wrong but is the Petrol Fortuner not R15 000 more expensive than the diesel?

    Regards

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    It seems this thread is detracting from the community spirit and acting as flame bait. No one side will change the mind of the other, and the fact that people drive diesels like petrol and then damage turbo bearings etc, cannot be linked to reliability for instance. The point of their use in L as 4x4 powerhouses have been proven (for those who care to accept it), so maybe time to move on before you all make more enemies than friends, because this is starting to look like youtube comments

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    Quote Originally Posted by bloues View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong but is the Petrol Fortuner not R15 000 more expensive than the diesel?

    Regards
    Yes, in the comparison I did on the Fortuners, the Auto D4D is cheaper than the V6 (available in auto only).
    Though the D4D performs absolutely horribly because it's fitted with a 4spd auto, instead of a 5spd auto on the V6. It gets trounsed.
    But yes, it is cheaper these days.
    Last edited by RedLineR; 2011/03/31 at 07:38 PM.
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  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by marlonrc View Post
    It seems this thread is detracting from the community spirit and acting as flame bait. No one side will change the mind of the other, and the fact that people drive diesels like petrol and then damage turbo bearings etc, cannot be linked to reliability for instance. (for those who care to accept it), so maybe time to move on before you all make more enemies than friends, because this is starting to look like youtube comments
    I just never know when to let something go
    Actually came on to update the sheets to include things like weight and fuel consumption, but now I'm distracted.

    "The point of their use in L as 4x4 powerhouses have been proven"
    Disproven I'd say, as the pertols consistently make more torque at the wheels below 1500rpm. Because they're either fitted with a shorter ratio diff, or a shorter 1st gear, and TDs don't make power below 1500rpm.
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    Default mmm

    Quote Originally Posted by RedLineR View Post
    So after 5 posts of "diesel sold so many vehicles!", only 24% of the vehciles sold were actually diesel? 3 times less than petrols?

    ok
    mmm, Where.

    In the UK and I suspect most of Europe more than 50% on new car sales are Diesel.

    If you dont take all cars into account and only concider 4x4,s/SUv's in SA, what then...

    4x4's/SUV's that only offer Diesel are -

    Ford Ranger.
    Ford everest.
    GWM Hover.
    Hyundai Santa Fe
    Jeep Patriot
    Defender90
    Defender110
    Defender130
    Mahindra Scorpio
    Maxda BT 50
    Pajero Sport
    Nissan Qasqai
    Ssanyong Actyon
    Ssangyong Kyron
    Ssangyong Rexton II
    Tata Zenon
    Toyota Land cruiser76
    Volkswagen Amarok

    Most of the the rest of the cars offer a huge diesel range with an odd token Petrol model for the dinosaurs..err dinasaws..err, forget it, cave men, amoungst us.

    Keith

    Sorry guys the writing is on the wall, and it is in BIG FLASHING NEON LIGHTS
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  11. #171
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    My stats are based on the South African "pond", the Euro "pond" is the complete oposite and the USA "pond" have lots of fish with V8's...

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    So in SA we're still buying/selling 3x more petrol than diesels currently per year?
    Is there any reason to expect the US to be any different?
    With Europe's stance on CO2 emissions, I can understand that they're forced to buy diesel.

    Diesel will get more, yes.
    Not what this thread is about.
    It wasn't even about sales figures till Heinrich made it so by quoting me, and then quoting sales figures.

    But while we're on the subject... As long as the ratio of petrol and diesel from a barrel of crude remains the same... Petrols will be around. You cannot make diesel from the petrol portion of a barrel of crude oil, and you can't make petrol from the diesel portion of a barrel of crude oil.
    Unless we're going to dump the petrol in the ocean, it'll be here.
    Last edited by RedLineR; 2011/03/31 at 08:54 PM.
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  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    mmm, Where.
    SA I believe.

    Anyways, I'm done with this line.

    It seems some people are not taking kindly to the figures posted. To which I invited peer review.
    Now sales figures are thrown in under my original mandate number 5, as part of performance.
    And I simply asked for total figures, instead of cherry picked figures.

    I don't think there's much I can add, as I don't really see the relevance with performance.
    And though some models are offered in diesel only in SA, they certainly are not making a dent in the 3:1 sales to petrol. Whatever that's worth.
    Then my point, in the post above still stands.
    Crude oil yields both petrol and diesel. Unless the petrol portion can be disposed of in an evironmentally friendly way, petrol will be around as long as diesel.
    And if demand for diesel keeps increasing, market forces dictate, that even the rand value of fuel consumption for both petrol and diesel could become equal, despite petrol's higher consumption. It'll balance out eventually.
    Petrol fuel will be cheap, due to the diminshed demand.
    Petrol vehicles will be expensive due to CO2 taxes.
    Diesel fuel will be expensive, due to the high demand.
    Diesel vehicles will be cheap, due to low CO2 taxes.
    This will lead to transport and food price increases etc, as those sectors rely mostly on diesel.
    And, given the big picture at the time, of a higher purchase price (due to taxes), higher fuel consumption, but cheap fuel. Petrols will remain in the running.
    No doubt that it's currently swinging towards diesel. But supply and demand waits for nobody.
    Last edited by RedLineR; 2011/03/31 at 09:17 PM.
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    Default mmm

    Quote Originally Posted by RedLineR View Post
    I'll check and confirm this list.
    For starters, the GV does not have a diesel here in SA. And even internationally, what is it compared with? The 2.4 or the 3.2?

    M-class Merc the petrol is definitely cheaper.
    On the GL, there is no sister model for the 350cdi
    Landrover doesn't have prices on their website
    Audi the diesels are cheaper for both the Q5, and Q7
    Prado, diesel is cheaper
    Rav4 petrol is cheaper
    Tuareg, petrol is cheaper
    Tiguan, diesel is cheaper
    XC60,70, 90 petrol is cheaper
    Nissan, there is no sister model for the 2.5

    The point of this thread was that a larger capacity naturally aspirated Petrol was better than a smaller Diesel Turbo.

    So I based my vehicle choice on that criteria which is exactly what was used for all the comparisons that have been done so far.

    So in your order, from Leisure Wheels mag.

    M-class Merc the petrol is definitely cheaper.
    - ML350 CDI R702K, ML 500 R827K Conforms to the engine size criterea. The 350 Petrol doesnt.


    On the GL, there is no sister model for the 350cdi -
    On the GL exactly the same argument as ML Large Petrol, small TD
    Gl 500 Petrol R1011K - Gl 350 Diesel R877K, besides you only get a choice of two.

    Landrover doesn't have prices on their website - Leisure Wheels Mag does.
    Freelander II - 3.2 V6 Petrol HSE R489K - 2.2 Diesel HSE R489K
    Discovery 4 - 5.0 Petrol HSE R753K - 3.0 TDV6 HSE R752K
    Range Rover Sport - 5.0 V8 Petrol R1227K - 3.6 TDV8 R1187K
    Range Rover - 5.0 V8 Petrol R1421K - 4.4 TDV8 R1394K

    Audi the diesels are cheaper for both the Q5, and Q7
    Comparable cars
    2.0 Petrol and Diesel same Price R420K
    3.2 TFSI Petrol R530K - 3.0 TDI R549 Marginal less than 5%

    Prado, diesel is cheaper
    4.0 V6 Petrol R673K - 3.0 D4d R654K

    Rav4 petrol is cheaper
    Correct my Oops

    Tuareg, petrol is cheaper
    Correct - But this on the range released this month. The V6 petrol is not comparable in spec. Go back a month when the choice was a 3.0 TDI or a 4.2 V8 Petrol and the situation was very different.

    Tiguan, diesel is cheaper
    Correct

    XC60,70, 90 petrol is cheaper
    XC60 3.0T Petrol R536K - D5 2.4 Diesel R496K
    XC70 3.2 Petrol R596K - D5 2.4 Diesel R602K (1% difference)

    Nissan, there is no sister model for the 2.5
    What about the 4.0 V6 Petrols, similar situation to the Mitsu's,Toyota's. Both in Navara and Pathfinders.

    Thats without the cars on my list that you didnt dispute their values.

    And we can go on and on disputing spec levels and which models to choose etc

    Fact is there is a trend and the writing IS on the wall.

    Keith
    Cheers

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  15. #175
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    Default Hi Red

    Quote Originally Posted by RedLineR View Post
    SA I believe.

    Anyways, I'm done with this line.

    It seems some people are not taking kindly to the figures posted. To which I invited peer review.
    Now sales figures are thrown in under my original mandate number 5, as part of performance.
    And I simply asked for total figures, instead of cherry picked figures.

    I don't think there's much I can add, as I don't really see the relevance with performance.
    And though some models are offered in diesel only in SA, they certainly are not making a dent in the 3:1 sales to petrol. Whatever that's worth.
    Then my point, in the post above still stands.
    Crude oil yields both petrol and diesel. Unless the petrol portion can be disposed of in an evironmentally friendly way, petrol will be around as long as diesel.
    And if demand for diesel keeps increasing, market forces dictate, that even the rand value of fuel consumption for both petrol and diesel could become equal, despite petrol's higher consumption. It'll balance out eventually.
    Petrol fuel will be cheap, due to the diminshed demand.
    Petrol vehicles will be expensive due to CO2 taxes.
    Diesel fuel will be expensive, due to the high demand.
    Diesel vehicles will be cheap, due to low CO2 taxes.
    This will lead to transport and food price increases etc, as those sectors rely mostly on diesel.
    And, given the big picture at the time, of a higher purchase price (due to taxes), higher fuel consumption, but cheap fuel. Petrols will remain in the running.
    No doubt that it's currently swinging towards diesel. But supply and demand waits for nobody

    err Which is exactly why the pendulum is swinging.
    Hi Redliner,

    Please relax. I am not disputing your figures.

    I am merely pointed out that there are a great many options where the Diesel is cheaper to buy and cheaper to run IF you are the type of buyer that buys new and sells just before motorplan expires.

    AND this is completely in line with one of your stated Aim Number 8

    "8 ) The perceived saving in fuel, when buying a turbo diesel, is only a partial picture. I will highlight some of the other factors to consider, and include some examples."

    I have merely added to your research and added some info for you to concider.

    Just a little note, I dont care who is doing the research. If you look at the Bakkie and SUV sector alone, there is no way that Petrols outsell Diesels by 3 to 1 in SA.

    Recent example - Leisure Wheels April 2011 - discovery 4, Pathfinder, Prado shootout.

    Total sales last 5/6 months.
    D4 Diesel 933 - Petrol 169
    Pathfinder Diesel 100 - Petrol 13
    Prado Diesel 613 - Petrol 723

    Add to this my list of Diesel ONLY offerings, no way 3:1

    Cheers
    Keith

    Cheer up, its a debate, not a lynching.
    Last edited by Fluffy; 2011/03/31 at 09:51 PM.
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  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post

    Recent example - Leisure Wheels April 2011 - discovery 4, Pathfinder, Prado shootout.

    Total sales last 5/6 months.
    D4 Diesel 933 - Petrol 169
    Pathfinder Diesel 100 - Petrol 13
    Prado Diesel 613 - Petrol 723

    That's what I said in one of my earlier replies... In "our forum segment" (SUV & Bakkie) diesels far out sell petrol's.


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    100% with you Keith and Haydes.
    The 3:1 is total vehicle sales, as quoted by Heinrich. (75% petrol, and he noted a 1% Hybrid). And we don't have a third fuel source in the market, so that leaves 24% for diesel. Post #162.

    While I don't dispute that when looking at bakkies and SUVs, that diesel outsells petrol, I doubt this is a recent development? Probably been that way for a good couple of years? I'm also not sure if this is an indication of "how good" a diesel is? Could it be that there are just limited petrol models available, and they seems to be reserved for the top-of-the range models? Not exclusivly, I mean VW does have the V10 as their range topper. But Merc has petrols at the top of their lists. Jeep has petrols at the top of their lists. Fortuner has a petrol at the top of it's list. And so does the Nissan Pathfinder.
    If the shift to diesel is recent. Is it market preference, or financial pressure due to the latest recession?

    If it's market preference, what does that mean? Does it mean diesels are good?
    If so, would the overall picture of 3:1 for petrol, mean that petrols are better?

    But yes, I have not yet addresses point number [8] in any of the tables or posts on the first page yet.
    But I'll get to it.
    I've been keeping an eye on the forum during the last week or 5. Just noting the generic "my turbo diesel is broken/giving trouble due to injectors/turbo failure", vs threads about naturally aspirated petrols failing in components unique or comparable to the common failed diesel components.
    And honestly, it's a pretty one sided affair.
    Threads like guys just double checking the turbo replacement procedure, as it's becoming DIY these days. This to me is alarming. Not that it requires special skills or anything, but that it's so common place.
    "What are you doing this weekend?"
    "Replacing the turbo on my kid's TDi. Replaced the one on my Pajero a week or so back, so I think this one will be easy."
    Other thread i saw was a guy complaining that the dealer can't get his diesel right.
    Other thread a guy was just complaining that he's on his 3rd turbo and he's on 60 000km.
    Some general threads on trouble shooting glow plugs.
    Hard starting
    Lack of power
    And shame, in jgoosen's case, the cost of a replacement TD engine, compared to the equivalent petrol. R30k vs R120k.
    These are not small amounts of money we're talking about.
    And I'm sure you'll agree that these threads are far more common than we'd like to see, and certainly more common with diesels than petrols.

    And yes, while under motorplan, you don't have to worry.
    But the same as you can use the argument that our forums sits in the "4x4 bakkie and SUV" segment, so I can argue that our forum also mostly sits outside of motorplan and warranty.

    It gets difficult to weigh these things up. But I'll get there.
    Last edited by RedLineR; 2011/03/31 at 10:29 PM.
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    Default Nobody wants a second hand gas guzzler

    Quote Originally Posted by RedLineR View Post
    And yes, while under motorplan, you don't have to worry.
    But the same as you can use the argument that our forums sits in the "4x4 bakkie and SUV" segment, so I can argue that our forum also mostly sits outside of motorplan and warranty.
    Okie Dokie,

    Let me give you some more lead for your pencil.

    As noted, if you are in the new car, motorplan camp, with my list of cars, then, to me, it is a no brainer.

    BUT

    While forum members may be a bit savy when it comes to buying second hand TD's the general public arent as clued up. And Joe Public is terrified of fuel consumption.

    Consequently, with second hand Petrol V6's and V8's, in many cases, you cant give them away second hand. So if you are savvy and buy used, there are some great bargains out there.

    Happy, OK.

    Cheers
    Keith
    Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedLineR View Post
    Could it be that there are just limited petrol models available, and they seems to be reserved for the top-of-the range models? Not exclusivly, I mean VW does have the V10 as their range topper. But Merc has petrols at the top of their lists. Jeep has petrols at the top of their lists. Fortuner has a petrol at the top of it's list. And so does the Nissan Pathfinder.
    It gets difficult to weigh these things up. But I'll get there.
    What can I say. Some people have more money than brains.

    Keith
    Cheers

    ZS5KAD
    3 V8's
    NA TwinTurbo SuperCharger
    A V6 and an inline 4

    The frogs are starting to notice that the water is getting warm but it is already too hot to do anything about it.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    The point of this thread was that a larger capacity naturally aspirated Petrol was better than a smaller Diesel Turbo.

    So I based my vehicle choice on that criteria which is exactly what was used for all the comparisons that have been done so far.

    So in your order, from Leisure Wheels mag.

    M-class Merc the petrol is definitely cheaper.
    - ML350 CDI R702K, ML 500 R827K Conforms to the engine size criterea. The 350 Petrol doesnt.


    On the GL, there is no sister model for the 350cdi -
    On the GL exactly the same argument as ML Large Petrol, small TD
    Gl 500 Petrol R1011K - Gl 350 Diesel R877K, besides you only get a choice of two.

    Landrover doesn't have prices on their website - Leisure Wheels Mag does.
    Freelander II - 3.2 V6 Petrol HSE R489K - 2.2 Diesel HSE R489K
    Discovery 4 - 5.0 Petrol HSE R753K - 3.0 TDV6 HSE R752K
    Range Rover Sport - 5.0 V8 Petrol R1227K - 3.6 TDV8 R1187K
    Range Rover - 5.0 V8 Petrol R1421K - 4.4 TDV8 R1394K

    Audi the diesels are cheaper for both the Q5, and Q7
    Comparable cars
    2.0 Petrol and Diesel same Price R420K
    3.2 TFSI Petrol R530K - 3.0 TDI R549 Marginal less than 5%

    Prado, diesel is cheaper
    4.0 V6 Petrol R673K - 3.0 D4d R654K

    Rav4 petrol is cheaper
    Correct my Oops

    Tuareg, petrol is cheaper
    Correct - But this on the range released this month. The V6 petrol is not comparable in spec. Go back a month when the choice was a 3.0 TDI or a 4.2 V8 Petrol and the situation was very different.

    Tiguan, diesel is cheaper
    Correct

    XC60,70, 90 petrol is cheaper
    XC60 3.0T Petrol R536K - D5 2.4 Diesel R496K
    XC70 3.2 Petrol R596K - D5 2.4 Diesel R602K (1% difference)

    Nissan, there is no sister model for the 2.5
    What about the 4.0 V6 Petrols, similar situation to the Mitsu's,Toyota's. Both in Navara and Pathfinders.

    Thats without the cars on my list that you didnt dispute their values.

    And we can go on and on disputing spec levels and which models to choose etc

    Fact is there is a trend and the writing IS on the wall.

    Keith
    That would mean that Ican use the models you quoted in head to head performance comparisons?
    I tried to keep the engine sizes close to eachother, but if you're happy to put a 3.2L petrol against a 2.2 liter TD, like in FL. Sure, though I wouldn't have.
    Or for the RRS, a 5 liter V8, against against a 3.6 liter TD?
    For the GL and ML, pretty much the same?

    As for the writing being on the wall...
    As I said, market forces and what we can get from crude oil dictate otherwise.
    Petrol and diesel will die together when a viable alternative power source is found. There simply is no other way.
    It's now the third time (I think) that diesel is more expensive than petrol.
    I don't know if diesel will ever be cheaper than petrol again. I just don't follow that side of the news closely enough.
    But, if what you are saying is true, that there is a substantial move to diesel, not a gradual one. Then diesel prices will go only one way.
    And with that, will go farmers' overheads, and thus food prices, and transport costs.
    I don't predict doom and gloom or anything like that.
    But I believe that if the world continues to move toward diesel, petrol will be next "cheapest on fuel" vehicles.
    There is no other outcome I can see.
    Diesel suffers from sulphur emissions, which is why refinery costs are also going up, as the demand for lower and lower sulpher diesel increases.
    SWAMBO
    2009 Suzuki Grand Vitara 3.2i V6 Auto
    Me
    2003 Ford Focus 2.0

    Eurard: For T=2; T=1 but, 1/2T=

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