ULTIMATE Petrol vs Diesel thread - Comparisons - Page 3





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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedLineR View Post
    I agree Fluffy!
    The gearboxes should've been the other way around!

    But, it's also the only models I know of that the TD version is cheaper than it's petrol sister.

    This is slowly changing, when you leave the bakkie segment and head into premium SUV territory the gap is either very narrow or the petrol is more expensive. FL2, D3, D4, RRS, RR, Grand Vitara, ML, GL, Porche, Patrol, Q5, Q7, Outback, Prada, Touareg, Tiguan, Volvo...even Pathfinder if you compare the 2.5TDi

    Really weird one that. Coupled with the large difference in engine capacity, it really renders the comparison invalid, as the D4-D cannot even make the V6's max torque.

    Hoping to do the Nissans next.

    Which Diesel old 2.5 or new 3.0 V6?
    Please see text in BLUE above.

    Keith
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  2. #42
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    ok did a few random checks and all seems true. still cant believe it! leon can you maybe bring in the manual diesel or just supply the ratio specs so that we can have a look at the outcome please!
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by BansheeZA View Post
    Heavy are u sure the calcs are correct for the Fortuner? that is a huge difference between the 2...... im not there like saturday night to help check everything.... will take a calculator and do a few random checks.
    Did double check some of them. Thanks for the effort!
    Also couldn't believe the difference.
    The torque converter will help the D4D out a bit though. As the torque ratio will be closer to the stall torque ratio, the lower the rpm.
    But not enough to make up those huge differences.
    Last edited by RedLineR; 2011/03/28 at 01:10 PM.
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    Eurard: For T=2; T=1 but, 1/2T=

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    very interesting!!!

    In the Mitsu - the motor sizes are actually very close - 3.2 TD and 3.5 Petrol...

    I think from the figures they are fairly closely matched - I think Red would agree with this in his analysis. win some and lose some between the 2. I think it's a bit odd that both the diesel and Petrol rev so high at the 120 km/h mark on these vehicles? Practically nothing in the gear ratios....

    Toyota - ERK!!!! what were they thinking? I am sure the manual version must be better. I have only driven them in manual...

    very interesting. It also seems very apparent to me that a lot of the Diesel motors out there are governed to their torque output - I would make an assumption here that this is more due to drivetrain issues than any other reason - they simply limit the injected fuel to limit output...
    I agree Apoc.
    For the Mitsu comparison, I'll grant that the diesel would be easier to drive (less shifting in search for power), at low speeds.
    But, as for performance, the petrol would eat the diesel just about everywhere. I did find some speeds (at the top of the rev range of the petrol), where it would be impossible for the petrol to change down, and it would have a deficit to the point that it's wheel torque is greater than that of the diesel.
    A very close one.
    Last edited by RedLineR; 2011/03/28 at 12:50 PM.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Please see text in BLUE above.

    Keith
    I'll keep on bringing the price into the comparisons, so we can note this.

    It's actually on the NP300. It was requested by Senin. So it's something like a 2.5TD vs a NA 2.4 petrol, or something along those lines.
    http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/...0&postcount=28
    Last edited by RedLineR; 2011/03/28 at 12:52 PM.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by BansheeZA View Post
    ok did a few random checks and all seems true. still cant believe it! leon can you maybe bring in the manual diesel or just supply the ratio specs so that we can have a look at the outcome please!
    Thanks for the check up!
    Yes, I must have a look for those manual ratios.
    Do you get the V6 and d4d in some models with manual boxes on both?
    SWAMBO
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  7. #47
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    have the ratios for the diesel manual but not the diff ratio- cant seem to find it so quickly. any one have a idea?? Uys

    1st 4.313
    2nd 2.330
    3rd 1.436
    4th 1
    5th 0.838
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  8. #48
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    It does not appear that Toyota has a 4.0 V6 with a manual box in it's product lineup?

    Is it available internationally?, as the graph that Coenraad gave me, does show a de-rated V6 for manual transmissions.
    The comparison will be invalid for SA though, as I can't find any reference to a Manual 4.0 V6 model.
    Last edited by RedLineR; 2011/03/28 at 12:49 PM.
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  9. #49
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    Got a link from AlexF,
    Seems to have everything I need!
    http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com.au/...dfs/pajero.pdf



    Quote Originally Posted by RoelfleRoux View Post
    RedL,

    Yip thanks, also got it down loaded eventually.

    I agree, the wrong engines.

    http://www.mitsubishi-motors.co.za/M...Specs_2010.pdf

    This one has the ratios and the correct "top end" kw and Nm figures, but not the curves. I'll keep digging.
    SWAMBO
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  10. #50
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    I still think turbo diesels are better. OI WHO SAID THAT?











    regards

    Dave
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  11. #51
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    You did get a 4l v6 Hi Lux in manual. My brother and brother in law both have 4l manuals. I don't know where to get the specs though. They are both 2006 models.

  12. #52
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    Mitsubishi Pajero figures are up!
    That's the new 147kW diesel, with 441Nm of torque!

    Thanks AlexF for the brochure!
    SWAMBO
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedLineR View Post
    Mitsubishi Pajero figures are up!
    That's the new 147kW diesel, with 441Nm of torque!

    Thanks AlexF for the brochure!
    now that is close..........
    "Blue Thunder"
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  14. #54
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    Mmm I am starting to wonder whether I should have bought the diesel after all... It was quite a bit more expensive. On the Wrangler the petrol comes with 4 spd box where the diesel comes with 5 spd. This drives much better for me. But also, the 130 kW diesel goes 20-30% faster up the hills than the 140kW petrol with the caravan in tow.

    Without checking the numbers yet, I guess it could have something to do with what I would define as socially accepted rpm range.


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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeepiscool View Post
    Mmm I am starting to wonder whether I should have bought the diesel after all... It was quite a bit more expensive. On the Wrangler the petrol comes with 4 spd box where the diesel comes with 5 spd. This drives much better for me. But also, the 130 kW diesel goes 20-30% faster up the hills than the 140kW petrol with the caravan in tow.

    Without checking the numbers yet, I guess it could have something to do with what I would define as socially accepted rpm range.
    I think you'll score more with the 5spd box.
    If the Fortuner comparison is anything to go by, the much longer ratios on a 4spd box absolutely kills torque at the wheels.
    But it is a comparison that's coming, once I get all the data together. It seems most likely that it'll be a WK comparison though.
    SWAMBO
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  16. #56
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    Excellent thread !

  17. #57
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    RedLineR, you are a star!

    So even when Pajero increased the torque and kw of their DiD motor by 22% and 29% respectively recently, it still doesn't get up to the high standard set by the 3.8V6.

    The only requirement for us V6 boys is to remember to drop TWO gears to keep up with the oil burners. Which is why the box will drop two gears on the V6 to overtake from 100km/h. My standard operating procedure is to assess the need for speed when overtaking is imminent and make a call on manual or auto. Auto gets the job done so much quicker, but calls on quite a few revs to do so. So if the need for speed is low, Ill slip the box to manual and either keep it in 5th or drop down to 4th.

    Your graphs also show why cruising at 125 (GPS speed) results in the box almost NEVER dropping to 4th in cruise control mode. If I stick the speedo on 120 (GPS 116), then I get really good consumption (12l/100km), but the box will surreptitiously slide into 4th to get up the steeper hills. If I feel like saving even more fuel, then Ill quietly press on the load pedal on the downhill to have some extra momentum for the uphill. Where of course the DiD (even the 121kw version) will stay in 5th for ever and ever while cruising.

    As far as fuel consumption goes, Im prepared to state for the record that my DiDs used 30% less fuel (when cruising at 116km/h) than the current 3.8V6. Those numbers are 9l/100km and 12l/100km respectively. When I just simply drive from Barberton to Jhb, the numbers normally come to 10 and 13 respectively.

    Fortuner Gents, are you happy with the revs/speed for the V6 model in the table. I get the feeling that the rev number in your table at 120 is higher than what one pick up in the various threads on the forum? often backed up by GPS speed readings. Im pretty convinced that both the Fortuner and the Hilux cruise at 2000rpm at 120km/h or am I off the ball here?

    Roelf

  18. #58
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    Just remember, that these tables are by no means complete.
    There's no reduction for drivetrain losses for instance.
    But because I leave certain losses out for all models, the picture is still accurate, though the actual numbers might be off.

    My biggest worry is on autos. As I have no specs on the torque ratios and slip on an of the auto boxes.
    Yes, the same torque converter will have the same characteristics, doesn't matter if it's connected to a petrol or diesel, but I don't even know if the same torque converter is used in some instances.

    This should not change the overall picture, but could very well influence the numbers.
    SWAMBO
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoelfleRoux View Post
    Fortuner Gents, are you happy with the revs/speed for the V6 model in the table. I get the feeling that the rev number in your table at 120 is higher than what one pick up in the various threads on the forum? – often backed up by GPS speed readings. I’m pretty convinced that both the Fortuner and the Hilux cruise at 2000rpm at 120km/h – or am I off the ball here?

    Roelf
    My Hilux 4.0 V6 auto sits at ~2300rpm in 5th gear at 120km/h (GPS) which is ~130km/h indicated on the standard 255/70 R 15 tyres.
    Last edited by Blue Shirt; 2011/03/29 at 01:00 PM. Reason: corrected tyre size
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    Can you please do a comparison for the Hilux auto models, unless they identical to the Fortuner in terms of gear ratios. Wheel size changed from 15" to 16" in 2008 or 2009, on the Fortuner it went from 16" to 17".
    - Nothing comes at a higher price than that which is free.

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