ULTIMATE Petrol vs Diesel thread - Comparisons - Page 2





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  1. #21
    Louisf Guest

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    I sure hope that after RedLineR has completed his project, I'll have clarity on whether I should replace my petrol Prado with a Pajero Di-D!

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    We already know the results, they were posted in the first post.

    All we are waiting for is somebody to manipulate some spread sheet figures to correspond.

    Sorry, but if somebody says

    - I am going to do some tests and calculations and see what the outcome is - I would go along with that.

    But when somebody says

    - These are the results, all I have to do now is dream up some tests and calculation to veryify them - Then the system is biased and squewed before it even gets off the ground.
    Every scientific study, like for instance clinical trials on medicine, are required to predict the outcome, before any testing is done.
    The expected outcome has to be clearly defined.
    That is the purpose of it.

    Like the cosmic microwave background. Before it was measured and observed, that study had to define and disclose what they expected to find, before the baloon went up.

    That, and I want to stir a little bit
    SWAMBO
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    Eurard: For T=2; T=1 but, 1/2T=

  3. #23
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    Update:
    First set of figures and calculations are in!
    Mitsubishi.
    Can anyone please help with published fuel consumption figures for the Triton 3.2Di-D and identical 3.5L MPi?
    SWAMBO
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    Eurard: For T=2; T=1 but, 1/2T=

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    RedL,

    Great stuff....

    I wondered why you used the 3.5 in the comparison, but now I see you were looking at the Triton. I'll patiently wait for the Pajero comparison. The 3.8MIVEC vs the 140kw DiD

    We had an educational experience going up Akkadispass. First two years in a 2006 DiD GLS and the third year in the 3.8 petrol. The last time in the 3.8, when we got close to the top, SWAMBO asked me when are we going to get to the steep section. My answer to her was that I'm also wondering where the steep section is, because we must be nearing the top of the pass.

    Bottom line: the petrol motor just purred up that pass without breaking into a sweat. I see on average a 30% increased fuel consumption from the DiD to the V6

    Thanks so far for your hard work.
    Roelf

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    Just had a quick look at the Pajeros just now Roelf.
    http://www.mitsubishi-motors.co.za/M...Specs_2010.pdf
    Unfortunately there are no torque curves for these engines in the brochure.
    Can you assist with these from owners manuals or something?
    SWAMBO
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    Eurard: For T=2; T=1 but, 1/2T=

  6. #26
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    Default Unstir

    Quote Originally Posted by RedLineR View Post
    Every scientific study, like for instance clinical trials on medicine, are required to predict the outcome, before any testing is done.
    The expected outcome has to be clearly defined.
    That is the purpose of it.

    Like the cosmic microwave background. Before it was measured and observed, that study had to define and disclose what they expected to find, before the baloon went up.

    That, and I want to stir a little bit
    Hi,

    Just to unstir a little. Please not condemning, just commenting.

    Yes experiments are done with a goal in mind.

    The goal in this case would be to model the drivetrains of comparable Diesel and Petrol version siblings and then compare there performance and suitability in an offroad 4x4 environment.

    Using this method nobody gets a bloody nose when the results dont match the assertions.

    Well done on your efforts so far.

    I think that doing the modelling in Low Range is probably more important than anything else for the test of 4x4 offroad ability. Yes the shape of the curves wont change, but the speeds will. And the speeds will be more appropriate for the 4x4 scenario as apposed to a flat out dice on tar. who drives there car flat out from red line to red line.

    As I said this is not trivial stuff. Once you start modelling wheel spin and have to start modelling tread patterns and surface conditions, which you will need to do to prove your point " 7) Traction limits are reached well before high torque values at low rpm have any influence.", then things are goint to get really hairy.

    Keith

    PS - Would you be averse to me manipulating your spread sheet, the format, not the data so that I can graph it.
    Cheers

    ZS5KAD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    PS - Would you be averse to me manipulating your spread sheet, the format, not the data so that I can graph it.
    No problem!
    Just be careful of that inconsistent rpm interval. It's the main reason I couldn't graph anything.

    But I did try to save it by adding the possibility to graph it in 250rpm intervals.
    One could use a nice 4th order curve to ftt along know points, and calculate the intermediaries, to provide a smothed torque curve at 250rpm intervals.
    It should then be possible to actually create some graphs to visually represent what I've had to describe in text so far.

    I just have not mustered the courage to tackle this yet. Nodding-off behind the desk at the moment. Last night took it out of me

    FWIW, the low range data for the mitsubishi triton's is actually pretty simple.
    Every wheel torque on both petrol and diesel x1.9, and every speed /1.9. It might be more complicated on other vehicles where the transfer case ratios differ between petrol and diesel variants. For the Triton's the overall picture remains exactly the same, only the numbers differ.
    Last edited by RedLineR; 2011/03/27 at 02:22 PM.
    SWAMBO
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    RedL,

    I found this document (below), but it refuses to completely download on my PC. Not sure what the prob is, but maybe you want to give it a try. I think the required data for the Gen3 2006 should be there.

    http://www.bukkehave.com/upload/06_pajero_gene.pdf

    Roelf

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoelfleRoux View Post
    RedL,

    I found this document (below), but it refuses to completely download on my PC. Not sure what the prob is, but maybe you want to give it a try. I think the required data for the Gen3 2006 should be there.

    http://www.bukkehave.com/upload/06_pajero_gene.pdf

    Roelf
    Not the engines you were looking for, but the brochure does have torque curves, but no ratios
    No gear, transfer case or diff ratios.
    SWAMBO
    2009 Suzuki Grand Vitara 3.2i V6 Auto
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    Eurard: For T=2; T=1 but, 1/2T=

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    RedL,

    Yip thanks, also got it down loaded eventually.

    I agree, the wrong engines.

    http://www.mitsubishi-motors.co.za/M...Specs_2010.pdf

    This one has the ratios and the correct "top end" kw and Nm figures, but not the curves. I'll keep digging.

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    Thanks Roelf,
    I'm busy compiling the Toyota Fortuner figures in the meantime.
    SWAMBO
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    Eurard: For T=2; T=1 but, 1/2T=

  12. #32
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    Toyota Fortuner Auto comparison done
    Last edited by RedLineR; 2011/03/28 at 11:13 AM.
    SWAMBO
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    well - when do you post it?

    or are the results not to your liking?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    well - when do you post it?

    In the beginning

    or are the results not to your liking?
    Redliner reserved the first few posts in the thread for report backs. I presume that this was done that they will all be together and not scattered all over the place.

    Keith
    Cheers

    ZS5KAD
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    The frogs are starting to notice that the water is getting warm but it is already too hot to do anything about it.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    well - when do you post it?

    or are the results not to your liking?
    Posted the Mitsubishi Saturday night/Sunday morning 1am
    Posted the Toyota just now.

    The results are just fine

    Indeed Keith! Didn't want the threads to get cluttered. So all the results will go on page1 of that thread.
    SWAMBO
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    oh - sorry, been out of action for a few days due to being on set for all hours of the day and night...

    will go back and find them

  17. #37
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    Default Fortuner

    Fortuner results noted.

    What were Toyota thinking.

    Turbo Diesels have a very narrow power band which lends itself, or more properly, mandates a few more gears. Modern TdI's have 6/7/8 speed gearboxes.

    Surely Toyota got the boxes the wrong way round in the Tuna.

    Then again traditionaly Toyota have always been a decade behind other brands when it comes to Auto's. Not bashing Toyota here.

    Keith
    Cheers

    ZS5KAD
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    The frogs are starting to notice that the water is getting warm but it is already too hot to do anything about it.....

  18. #38
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    I agree Fluffy!
    The gearboxes should've been the other way around!

    But, it's also the only models I know of that the TD version is cheaper than it's petrol sister.

    Really weird one that. Coupled with the large difference in engine capacity, it really renders the comparison invalid, as the D4-D cannot even make the V6's max torque.

    Hoping to do the Nissans next.
    SWAMBO
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    Heavy are u sure the calcs are correct for the Fortuner? that is a huge difference between the 2...... im not there like saturday night to help check everything.... will take a calculator and do a few random checks.
    "Blue Thunder"
    Gert Ferreira
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    very interesting!!!

    In the Mitsu - the motor sizes are actually very close - 3.2 TD and 3.5 Petrol...

    I think from the figures they are fairly closely matched - I think Red would agree with this in his analysis. win some and lose some between the 2. I think it's a bit odd that both the diesel and Petrol rev so high at the 120 km/h mark on these vehicles? Practically nothing in the gear ratios....

    Toyota - ERK!!!! what were they thinking? I am sure the manual version must be better. I have only driven them in manual...

    very interesting. It also seems very apparent to me that a lot of the Diesel motors out there are governed to their torque output - I would make an assumption here that this is more due to drivetrain issues than any other reason - they simply limit the injected fuel to limit output...

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