Mixing 2-stroke oil into Diesel




View Poll Results: Do you add 2 stroke to your diesel?

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  • Yes in my diesel

    137 63.13%
  • No!

    45 20.74%
  • Yes in my petrol

    15 6.91%
  • Huh? I haven't bothered to read up on the subject. Why must I use 2 stroke?

    20 9.22%
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  1. #1
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    Wink Mixing 2-stroke oil into Diesel

    Hi guys

    on Sunday I had a chat with LandyLuver about the eternal 2-stroke oil debate.

    This has in the last two years gained a lot of momentum in Germany, after they started mixing 5% bio diesel with the normal diesel fuel. Now bio diesel in Germany is a mixture of raps seed oil and ethanol. This makes the concoction hygroscopic, i.e. it will absorb moisture (water!!!).

    You now get an idea why there is such a high failure rate on VHP pumps and injectors on CRD engines in Europe.

    This whole concept of mixing 2-stroke oil with diesel is nothing new. It started in Scandinavia and Northern USA among the fishermen' fleets in Winter.

    But in our south african context, we first have to get a proper understanding about the quality of diesel:

    1. Normal diesel is 500ppm sulphur content - Cetane - lower

    2. Premium diesel is 50ppm sulphur content - Cetane - higher

    3. "African countries diesel (Sadec countries and further north) can be anything up to 8000ppm sulphur content

    If we now go back to the olden days of 10-15 years ago, it was not uncommon for diesel in SA to have a 3000ppm sulphur content. In those days one had to change the oil every 5000km as otherwise one ended up with a jelly like substance in the engine, also called the black death or sludge.

    I am now going back to the topic at hand. The highest cetane rating in SA diesel is found in the Sasol 50ppm diesel. This 50ppm diesel (irrespective of brand) also has a reduced lubrication property which leads to defective injectors, see for example Toyota 3 litre bakkie engines.

    In two-stroke oil we get 4 different quality ratings, which are based on the JASO (Japanese Automotive Standards Org.) scale:

    JASO-FA very basic single grade SAE30 or SAE40 based 2-stroke oil (premix only)

    JASO-FB Used for most premix industrial 2-stroke engines and scooters

    JASO-FC "Low ash burn" used for separate oil injection and most outboard motors. this oil can be mineral or part synthetic

    JASO-FD This is fully synthetic 2-stroke oil for racing engines. It is not suitable for mixing with diesel, because a) too expensive and b) not compatible with cats and particle filters.

    For All Series LR and Disco1 and 2 a Jaso-FB rated oil is fine. For Disco 3 and 4 a JASO-FC rated oil has to be used, such as the Fuchs oil.

    Now in order to provide better lubrication but at the same time also better power delivery from the engines, the ideal solution seems to be to add 2-stroke oil (see above) in a mixing ratio of 1:200 i.e. 500ml per 100lt diesel.
    This will increase the cetane rating by 3-5 points and will provide the following benefits:

    1. Much better and more complete combustion (lower EGT)

    2. Self cleaning of engine internals, as JASO-FC compliant 2-stroke oil burns cleaner and better than diesel. Due to this there is also about a 3-5% gain in fuel economy.

    3. Sufficient lubrication of high pressure components in the diesel injection system.

    4. Much quieter starting in the morning and smoother running

    5. Reduced smoking

    6. In engines with particle filter "burn free" action is reduced from every 600-700km to between every 1200-2000km

    7. Much lower "clowd content" of diesel exhaust fumes typically from 0.95 down to 0.47. This is measured in Germany at the TüV.

    8. Large government fleets in Germany report fleet reliability (MB Cdi, BMW CRD, Audi Tdi etc. etc. to exceed 400'000km WITHOUT VHP pump or injector failures

    So the above deliberations give some well documented indication, why adding 2-stroke oil to diesel is such a clever move.

    I run my 1999 Disco1 300Tdi on Sasol 50ppm diesel with a 1:200 mixing ratio of Sasol Corwa-120 2-stroke oil added.

    I get on long distance travel fully loaded between 8.9 to 10.8lt/100km depending on how heavy my right foot is. I have done a number of trips with 1000km per (standard capacity) tank.

    So now that I have kickstarted this thread, lets hear from the members out there.

    Disclaimer:
    This is my personal view and in no way whatsoever serves as an instruction or official guide line. All product names mentioned are the property and/or trade mark of their relevant owners.
    Last edited by hgbosch; 2010/10/16 at 12:20 PM.
    George Bosch
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  2. #2
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    I think this is the clearest 2-stroke post thus far.
    Thanks.

    I ran my 3.8V6 on 2-stroke from Barberton to Port Nolloth during the autumn. With a full Richterveld camp load and trailer in tow, I was getting slightely better than 12l/100km at legal cruising speeds. I was worried about the CAT, but six months and 10 000km later all is still fine with the CAT.

    Roelf

  3. #3
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    Thankyou very much!!!!

    I have been battling with the idea of putting two stroke oil in my triton, and you have just clarified the advantage of the use of oil in the diesel. My next tank will get a load of oil.
    As I understand it looks as if the FC would be the correct two-stroke oil for my vehicle, ie... triton 2.5
    2015 Mitsubishi triton 2.5 4x4

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    Nice to know.

  5. #5
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    HGBOSCH, very interesting reading. I've put a 200ml bottle into a tank on my Disco V8i. Didn't experience any difference also wasn't 100% certain. Just with regards to petrol motors, does this adding 2stroke to the fuel do exactly the same as per the diesel motors? Another question is adding the 200ml to a 80lt tank harmful?
    Your comments would be appreciated.
    Platkar driver...
    '99 Land Rover Discovery 3.9 V8i - SOLD
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    I will drive a Land Rover again...

  6. #6
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    Interesting post! I asked a LR technical specialist about adding 2 stroke oil and he emphatically said DON'T DO IT! Now he may have said this because perhaps that has to be his official "LR response" - all I could et out of him was that it is not recommended and neither is it necessary. I was specifically referring to my 2010 Puma.

    So if I did add 2 stroke oil - which one would I use for my vehicle? I guess it would invalidate the warranty too.

    Thanks for the info!
    2010 Defender Puma 110 Hardtop

    U gotta LIVE b4 u can die!

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    I am yet to find a mechanic that knows what I am talking about with UDF filters or 2-stroke oil. They just believe what Toyota feeds them.
    LC 78 Troopie 1HD-FTE
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teejay View Post
    Interesting post! I asked a LR technical specialist about adding 2 stroke oil and he emphatically said DON'T DO IT! Now he may have said this because perhaps that has to be his official "LR response" - all I could et out of him was that it is not recommended and neither is it necessary. I was specifically referring to my 2010 Puma.

    So if I did add 2 stroke oil - which one would I use for my vehicle? I guess it would invalidate the warranty too.

    Thanks for the info!
    Hi Teejay

    For modern landys the JASO-FC compliant oil is the only one. Once added to the fuel tank, before filling up it will form an emulsion with the diesel. As this oil burns much cleaner than diesel, there are no side effects. Quite the contrary.

    As far as manufacturers responses to this topic are concerned, always keep in mind, that they are doing good business selling injectors!

    There is a workshop directive with one of the top german luxury car manufacturers, to add JASO-FC compliant 2-stroke oil to their CRD engines diesel tank to quieten down noisy injectors.

    Also read in my posting above about the german fleet operators who clock up over 400000km with CRD diesels without changing injectors
    George Bosch
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  9. #9
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    Thanks George

    2 questions from my side -
    1. Whats a VHP Pump?
    2. Whats the rating of the Sasol Corwa 120. JASOFC rated?

    I drive the same engine as you do...300Tdi

    300 Tdi 90" mmmm
    Disco 4

  10. #10
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    Question 3 -
    Does one buy Corwa straight form the Service station or is it a case of going to the distributors depot?

    300 Tdi 90" mmmm
    Disco 4

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by AjayDisco View Post
    HGBOSCH, very interesting reading. I've put a 200ml bottle into a tank on my Disco V8i. Didn't experience any difference also wasn't 100% certain. Just with regards to petrol motors, does this adding 2stroke to the fuel do exactly the same as per the diesel motors? Another question is adding the 200ml to a 80lt tank harmful?
    Your comments would be appreciated.
    there is no harm in adding 2 stroke to a petrol as it will add lubrication to the valves and compression rings and even improve the operation and life of the injectors. just remember that 2 stroke was designed for petrol engines (albeit 2 stroke engines) also fitted with sparkplugs but entirely relying on the lubrication from their oil only.
    as mentioned before, grand prix racing teams use it in their engines and we all know those motor pull 18 000 rpm.
    normal lubrication just cannot cope with that sort of requirements.
    i would however caution not to add too much as you may hinder proper ignition of the sparkplugs.
    i have been running my V8 with 2 stroke for the past 2 years and have had no negative effect and believe that it has aided the motor in running well.

    just another point i wish to add is the fact that adding bio or 2 stroke is like adding "antifreeze" to the diesel. it retards gelling in cold weather and improves starting.

    Land Rovers never die, they simply become organ donors!

  12. #12
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    LR and other manufacturers cannot recommend the use of 2 stroke , for the following reason:

    Diesel is sold here at 50 ppm sulfur. In the USA and other 1st world countries it is sold at 15 ppm sulfur - legislated for environmental reasons.
    Lubrication oils ( including 2 stroke )have a sulfur content of typically 3000 ppm ie 200 times higher than the ultra low sulfur diesel.
    It is illegal in the USA (I dont know about Europe) to market any product that has a higher sulfur content than the diesel fuel itself . This is despite the fact that the high dilution ratio means the mixed fuel will still have a low sulfur content.For a manufacturer to advocate usage of 2 stroke in diesel would be illegal - so they must not get involved in the debate. Getting involved has further implications - any advocacy for 2 stroke addition can bring up claims that engine is defective - ask owners of the D4D - which could lead to major legal claims against the car company.

    Dave

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    Hi Guys
    This might be a bit off topic but maybe usefull to some .

    My brother bought a bt50 and read on this forum about mixing two stroke .
    So he started mixing two stroke to the diesel.
    About 2 months after he got the bakkie it developed a diesel leak somewhere on the fuel rail.
    So he decided to run that tank of diesel empty and fill up without the two stroke before he phoned mazda to book it in for repair.

    He told me that he was worried that mazda would find out that there is 2 stroke in the diesel wich could cause all sorts of warranty issues.

    I pressume manufacturers here would not honor the warranty if they were to find out about the two stroke ?

    I ask this because i took my mothers bm in for a service one day and while i was waiting there this woman from bm gets on the phone to one of the customers and says something like this ......
    "Hi sir yes we have sent a fuel sample away for analysis and are waiting for the results "

    So it is possible to test the fuel for "foreign" matter !

    But would it cause your warranty to be null and void ?

    Would be interesting to know .

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landy777 View Post
    Thanks George

    2 questions from my side -
    1. Whats a VHP Pump?
    2. Whats the rating of the Sasol Corwa 120. JASOFC rated?

    I drive the same engine as you do...300Tdi
    Hi Landy777

    VHP = Very high pressure pump, used in CRD diesel applications, typically operating at between 1600-2200 bar pressure


    Sasol Corwa (excerpt from the Sasol website)
    This is a specially formulated self-mixing 2-stroke engine oil with low ash-forming properties to prevent plug fouling and ring sticking.
    Because of its excellent thermal stability, corwa 120 is particularly recommended for high temperature applications such as high-output air-cooled engines which are lubricated either by autolube systems or petroil mixtures. These include chain saws, generators, lawn mowers, mopeds, motorcycles and scooters. Sasol corwa 120 is not intended for outboard motors.

    Corwa-120 is available from Sasol fuel stations in 200ml and 500ml bottles.


    I trust that I have answered your questions

    Disclaimer:
    This is my personal view and in no way whatsoever serves as an instruction or official guide line. All product names mentioned are the property and/or trade mark of their relevant owners.
    Last edited by hgbosch; 2010/10/11 at 10:51 PM.
    George Bosch
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by pretdave View Post
    LR and other manufacturers cannot recommend the use of 2 stroke , for the following reason:

    Diesel is sold here at 50 ppm sulfur. In the USA and other 1st world countries it is sold at 15 ppm sulfur - legislated for environmental reasons.
    Lubrication oils ( including 2 stroke )have a sulfur content of typically 3000 ppm ie 200 times higher than the ultra low sulfur diesel.
    It is illegal in the USA (I dont know about Europe) to market any product that has a higher sulfur content than the diesel fuel itself . This is despite the fact that the high dilution ratio means the mixed fuel will still have a low sulfur content.For a manufacturer to advocate usage of 2 stroke in diesel would be illegal - so they must not get involved in the debate. Getting involved has further implications - any advocacy for 2 stroke addition can bring up claims that engine is defective - ask owners of the D4D - which could lead to major legal claims against the car company.

    Dave
    george made reference to the use of biodiesel which is sulphur free for all intents and purposes. if you can source biodiesel, add approx 10% by volume to the normal diesel if you are concerned about warranty or other issues.
    LR also makes a big song and dance about using 50ppm and that failing to do so may void your warranty. warranty conditions can only be enforced if the product is sold in a region where access to the consumable specified is freely available. having their product promoted in Southern Africa where the access to 50ppm is limited and north of our border downright impossible to obtain almost certainly guarantees that they can refuse warranty claims as it almost certain that the customer cannot comply with the requirements 100% of the time.
    if you were to use 2 stroke with a said sulphur content of 3000ppm added to 50 ppm diesel, the nett effect would be that at a dilution of 1:200, the sulphur content will be raised to 65ppm.
    this in effect means that it is still 9 times healthier than 500ppm.

    Land Rovers never die, they simply become organ donors!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pretdave View Post
    LR and other manufacturers cannot recommend the use of 2 stroke , for the following reason:

    Diesel is sold here at 50 ppm sulfur. In the USA and other 1st world countries it is sold at 15 ppm sulfur - legislated for environmental reasons.
    Lubrication oils ( including 2 stroke )have a sulfur content of typically 3000 ppm ie 200 times higher than the ultra low sulfur diesel.
    It is illegal in the USA (I dont know about Europe) to market any product that has a higher sulfur content than the diesel fuel itself . This is despite the fact that the high dilution ratio means the mixed fuel will still have a low sulfur content.For a manufacturer to advocate usage of 2 stroke in diesel would be illegal - so they must not get involved in the debate. Getting involved has further implications - any advocacy for 2 stroke addition can bring up claims that engine is defective - ask owners of the D4D - which could lead to major legal claims against the car company.

    Dave
    Hi Dave

    you are quite correct with your deliberations.

    The TÜV in Germany (Roadworthy Inspection Authority) is aware of the 2-stroke oil issue and does not penalize motorists for using it. It is very widely accepted practice with the taxi fleets in Germany.

    JASO-FC or equivalent 2-stroke oil forms an emulsion with the diesel. When manufacturers test diesel for foreign particle contamination, they primarily are looking for water dilution or the presence of paraffine. 2-stroke oil and diesel are both fuel oils
    George Bosch
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  17. #17
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    Hi LandyLuver

    LR and other manufacturers have to insist on 50ppm diesel due to its much higher cetane rating and therefore more complete combustion, i.e. less soot and carbon deposits.

    The mixture of JASO-FC compliant 2-stroke oil further reduces soot and carbon deposits. this is the main reason, why the burn free cycles of particle filters are extended when using this practice. A further benefit is the increased reliability of CRD high pressure components, such as VHP pumps and injectors.

    Disclaimer:
    This is my personal view and in no way whatsoever serves as an instruction or official guide line. All product names mentioned are the property and/or trade mark of their relevant owners.
    Last edited by hgbosch; 2010/10/11 at 10:52 PM.
    George Bosch
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  18. #18
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    Eastern Germany and Eastern Europe all the way through to China still run a great majority of all vehicles on 2 stroke from 2 stroke cars like the Trabant etc to motorcycles.
    Vietnam, Korea, Japan, China etc all have at least 50 2 stroke motorcycles for every 4 stroke car.
    2 stoke is also extensively used in powerboating, chainsaws and a host of other daily applications.
    i personally believe that modern 2 stroke oil is also formulated to burn away and leave very little residue in the form of smoke or soot deposits.
    we all want a cleaner environment but have to realise that sometimes low economic potential will retard progression to modern technology.
    the use of paraffin is far more toxic and potentially damaging to the environment and widely used in SA.

    Land Rovers never die, they simply become organ donors!

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    @george
    if so, why are they so adamant that the use of the 2 stroke is not encouraged and threats of voiding warranties are raised?
    i often believe that it because of ignorance.

    Land Rovers never die, they simply become organ donors!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by landyluvver View Post
    @george
    if so, why are they so adamant that the use of the 2 stroke is not encouraged and threats of voiding warranties are raised?
    i often believe that it because of ignorance.
    LandyLuver

    Manufacturers are making lots of money selling prohibitively priced injectors and VHP pumps.

    Do you really think they are keen to see that revenue stream disappear

    George Bosch
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