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  1. #1
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    Default "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    The terms I've used:
    NEED's are cheaper than WANT's.
    WANT's are cheaper the HOBBIES
    HOBBIES being "priceless"

    Coupled with "replacement cost" of all the equipment after X-years being inevitable.

    Feed back the spare power ... are you SURE about that? The costs to do that? The possible earlier replacement costs?

    And then term "off-grid" - right ok fine whatever.

    For the brainy one among us, why all the above makes for salient contemplation:
    https://businesstech.co.za/news/ener...-south-africa/
    Political Correctness
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    Default Re: "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    I'm not even calculating.

    just nice to have eskom switched off
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    Default Re: "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    I read that article.

    To me it just sounds like scare tactics to dissuade people from going solar by means of telling them they might lose money.

    Proudly brought to you by Eskom?

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    Default Re: "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    We live in Africa, so you have to be provide for yourself to a great extent. The authorities don't actually want to pay for grid feed either, as they make a profit on selling electricity. How much is peace of mind worth, and to have electricity?!

    If you investment repayment over the life of the plant is more then the monthly electricity bill, then its not worthwhile other wise, I would say?
    Johan Kriel

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  8. #5
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    Default Re: "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    The whitepaper was based on data from Discovery Greenís platform, which has 343 points of connection from 58 businesses in 17 industries.
    Pointless article based on a very small sample, solar makes a lot MORE sense for business due to their consumption profile compared to home users that generate in the day and consume at night.

    With above inflation increases for the foreseeable future I cannot see how solar is not a good investments if done right.
    Last edited by mullerza; 2024/06/13 at 12:44 PM.
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  10. #6
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    Default Re: "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    We were "off" this morning with no explanation whatsoever. I did not know until my neighbor asked me.
    Stranger

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  12. #7
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    Default Re: "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    Meer as 12j gelede al begin met bystandbattery en inverter. Omtrent 6j gelede panele by die huis gevoeg vir die erge beurtkrag van die tyd. Toe kry ons die afgelope vier jaar nie beurtkrag nie.
    Daarna 96 panele op 'n grid tie by die fabriek met 2x driefase stelsels.
    Tans genereer ons +60% van totale energieverbruik plaaslik. Geldbesparing R8000-R10000 per maand. Installasie binne drie jaar die uitgawe terug gespaar.

    Wat meer kan ek sÍ?
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  14. #8
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    Default Re: "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    Since install

    From Grid - 2611kW (in a roundabout sort of way that I would rather not discuss)
    From Solar - 6431W
    Consumption - 9042kW

    That's without any geyser timer involved, but I've since put that back in so expect it to drop slightly (not as much as you'd think)

    Due to a work around there is no need to cycle my physical batteries, I cycle a virtual battery. If the virtual batter ever disappears then I'll get Node Red set up and manage it a lot more carefully and drop those numbers.

    Over-invested - nope, not until my municipal use is zero. And if the MK chops get their hands on eThekwini that will be sooner rather than later.

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  16. #9
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    Default Re: "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    Interesting to see the replies on this post of mine about "Warning for solar users".


    Hint, over and over one would hear the question: I have so much spare, my batts are charged by 10am. What do I do with the spare? ... and then ideas come forth to solve that "21ste century problem".

    The original document: https://www.discoverygreen.co.za/ass...hite-paper.pdf

    In there, the key part of my post, I quote:
    As soon as generation becomes wasted, the pricing pathway begins to decrease at a slower rate. This is because the business must compensate the renewable energy supplier for generation that is not needed, increasing the effective price of consumed energy. The point of maximum savings, as highlighted in the results tables, is the point where the pricing pathway reaches its turning point. However, provided that the effective weighted price of consumed energy never exceeds the utility price of electricity, the business will continue to make some financial savings.
    Business, home user, it is a balancing act.
    Political Correctness
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    Saw this in a pub - no idea why the wife does not see it so:
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    Default Re: "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post
    Interesting to see the replies on this post of mine about "Warning for solar users".


    Hint, over and over one would hear the question: I have so much spare, my batts are charged by 10am. What do I do with the spare? ... and then ideas come forth to solve that "21ste century problem".

    The original document: https://www.discoverygreen.co.za/ass...hite-paper.pdf

    In there, the key part of my post, I quote:


    Business, home user, it is a balancing act.
    We can talk about balancing acts as much as we want, but if the power provider (Eskom) cannot provide power, then there is no business. Last year, our fairly new business had 786hours of run time on our 450kva generator. Now that is how you kill a business. So overinvesting can be whatever, but it is better than no power. Our longest period of no power was 10 days.
    Mike


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  20. #11
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    Default Re: "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    Our business sells solar electricity mostly in commercial and residential complexes. The investment return sweet spot is 80% of solar supply when the sun shines and max 2 hours of battery for loadshedding protection. If self sufficiency is the objective obviously the investment returns drop proportional to the quantum of batteries.

    What's lurking in the background is the desire of Eskom and the municipalities wanting supplement lost revenue by means of a fixed capacity charge. Depending on the amount this could have the opposite effect as it may force a drive to total self sufficiency.

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  22. #12
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    Default Re: "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    Moment one caters for LS, or unreliable Eskom, the sums change drastically ... gets very personal.
    5kWh or 50kWh the personal sums.

    If the drive is for reliable electricity for a business, depending on the sector, it gets really interesting, the sums.
    Don't do it you close down.
    Do it at the cost you need to, your investment risk increases exponentially, as your goods get more expensive, can also close down if it goes out of "market related pricing".
    Business people tend to be very much aware of the sums.


    My core point, home user having their batts charge by 10am, what now ...

    As per River Rat:
    The investment return sweet spot is 80% of solar supply when the sun shines and max 2 hours of battery for loadshedding protection.
    Political Correctness
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    Saw this in a pub - no idea why the wife does not see it so:
    I'm not opinionated ... I'm just always right!

  23. #13
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    Default Re: "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    My core point, home user having their batts charge by 10am, what now ...

    Run your washing machines, dryers, pool , heat pump, geysers on [ not all together - monitor draw]

    all off [sequentially] before the PV produces equivalent to draw.

    my 2c.

    cc

    PS - only 2 of us. fairly large house. Eskimo off since begin March. careful monitoring. 15kwh storage.
    Last edited by Capt Chaos; 2024/06/14 at 09:21 AM.
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    Default Re: "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
    We were "off" this morning with no explanation whatsoever. I did not know until my neighbor asked me.
    My point here being that when the grid goes down, production in your business stops. That for me is the balancing act
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    Default Re: "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    Solar system also improves the value of your property, so maybe your solar investment is covered anyway.
    Johan Kriel

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  27. #16
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    Default Re: "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    I installed solar at my home 3 years ago. Have not had loadshedding since. The pain of the money is long gone but the electrical supply makes up for it.

    There is a fine balance between generating enough and over investing. It is mostly determined by your solar objectives. I kept my escom / council as back-up and very specifically use a small amount of council power just so that my account does not go to absolute zero. I simply dont trust them.

    Next I am sorting my water supply as well as quality of water. Will take me a while.

    If you want an accurate overview of Escom, download the report that was done by VGE? plus other German companies. It is a really good technical (and other) overview. This will provide a scary real genuine picture of the state of Escom. (it is on the treasury website, for public consumption). The most worrying part is that no matter what Escom decides to do with the old coal power stations, NOBODY is going to finance renewing any coal power stations - even if it was done properly and corruption free.

    If you have a business that is seriously dependent on electricity.... read and think again. PM me for more info.
    Find the solutions, not the problems.

  28. #17
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    Default Re: "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    I had three requirements

    Run the house, less the geyser from sunset to sunrise off batteries if needed. My case 15kW/h
    Recharge the batteries to 100% with full or mostly full sunlight available. 12x545w panels
    Inverter must be able to cope with geyser easily. 8kW inverter

    Anything for me more than that was overkill for my household.
    Last edited by Blikka; 2024/06/14 at 10:20 AM.
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    Default Re: "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    Quote Originally Posted by River Rat View Post
    Our business sells solar electricity mostly in commercial and residential complexes. The investment return sweet spot is 80% of solar supply when the sun shines and max 2 hours of battery for loadshedding protection. If self sufficiency is the objective obviously the investment returns drop proportional to the quantum of batteries.

    What's lurking in the background is the desire of Eskom and the municipalities wanting supplement lost revenue by means of a fixed capacity charge. Depending on the amount this could have the opposite effect as it may force a drive to total self sufficiency.
    This is the problem when real world decisions are made on ideology and not reality.

    We invested heavily in solar over the last 6 months and currently generate 2MWh per day and that is only 60% of our demand, solar generation is limited by daytime demand (we run 24/7) not capacity so we are investing in another 600KWh of battery capacity to push that self generation over 70%. If Eskom pushes through large fixed capacity charges then it will be cheaper for me to cut the cord and add more battery capacity & self generate the shortfall with my 400kva generator than pay their charge.

    As part of our SSEG application we HAVE to push power brack into the grid, which we are happy to do but at the same time the municipality cannot tell us when they will be able to let us do it so at the monent I have at least 1MWh going to waste every day.
    Last edited by mullerza; 2024/06/14 at 11:17 AM.
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  30. #19
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    Default Re: "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    I had a look and they managed to lose me on the first line...

    I am rather considering increasing my capacity to further reduce my reliance on the grid and potentially include solar power for the rental properties. My main concern would be "sharing" peak load with the tenants, as peak load is always the concern. If eskom carries on with their intended plan of upping the "connection" fee, the math will shift even further in favour of solar. And with a number of installers currently offering crazy good deals (my installer is offering a 12kW system for the same money I paid for my 5kW system 2 years ago) it is becoming more and more tempting to just go off grid fully.

    That being said, I have had this debate too many times to count, I am either right or super bad at math... I don't regret my solar install at all.
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  31. #20
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    Default Re: "Over-investing" in Solar systems - what is the balancing point?

    Quote Originally Posted by mullerza View Post
    This is the problem when real world decisions are made on ideology and not reality.

    The investment return sweet spot is 80% of solar supply when the sun shines and max 2 hours of battery for loadshedding protection.
    We invested heavily in solar over the last 6 months and currently generate 2MWh per day and that is only 60% of our demand, solar generation is limited by daytime demand (we run 24/7) not capacity so we are investing in another 600KWh of battery capacity to push that self generation over 70%. If Eskom pushes through large fixed capacity charges then it will be cheaper for me to cut the cort and add more battery capacity & self generate the shortfall with my 400kva generator than pay their charge.

    As part of our SSEG application we HAVE to push power brack into the grid, which we are happy to do but at the same time the municipality cannot tell us when they will be able to let us do it so at the monent I have at least 1MWh going to waste every day.[/QUOTE]
    We have discounted any feed in tariff from our investment feasibilities simply because they are so low and further can you imagine getting your money from a bankrupt ANC/EFF run municipality . If your feasibility needs income from a feed in tariff our view is that all you will have is paper money.

    As a matter of interest I have an interesting conversation with our local DA councillor of a DA run municipality questioning the rationale of a low feed in tariff, I explained why their tariffs are too low for investment. I went further to explain how the municipality is missing an opportunity by not upping the rate to make it viable for investment but keeping it below the Eskom supply cost. In essence they would have cheaper electricity to sell at a higher margin, the blank stare I got tells me why I am in business and he is in politics.

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