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  1. #41
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

    Quote Originally Posted by Morne - Skip View Post
    Actually the last signature on paper, before a plane's door is closed, is the captain's
    I am trying read the rest below, but we just had a Captain make us change our AWB, to read the way he understood it, contrary to what our DG packers, told us. Swambo is DG certified as well, but the Captain would not sign it off, until we did it his way.

    We are under investigation for clients not "knowing" what is DG or not and packing it emigrating' relocation etc..yet we tell them...I can start a hair and beauty salon

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  3. #42
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

    Quote Originally Posted by HugoNotte View Post
    1) the Daily Maverick article should have been fact checked before it was published.
    2) Accra to Johannesburg is a 6 hours flight. If the engine surge had to do with contaminated fuel, why did it happen 5 hours into the flight and not much earlier?
    3) an engine stall is an aerodynamic phenomenon and even as a former jet engine mech, I can’t see a correlation between an engine stall and fuel contamination.

    Criticising the crew for not diverting to Gaborone, into thunderstorms, which may very well cause wind shear on approach or landing, with the power of only one engine just shows lack of understanding of sound decision making. Proper wind shear, or a microburst are difficult to handle and push most aircraft to their performance limits on all engines running, but facing that on one engine might well proof fatal. Anyone who has done a single engine go around in the simulator would know how little performance margin there is.
    After all Johannesburg was rather close and, considering the weather conditions, could have well been the nearest suitable airport in that situation.
    Some might want to read up on the definition of “suitable airport”.
    2. 11 December 2018. Kinshasa to Brussels A330 fuel contamination. The first time they had engine problems was over Algiers. The left engine flamed out. Restarted at 27000’ climbed back to altitude. No2 surged and flamed out and relight on approach into Brussels.
    3. What are the odds of having fuel contamination on the ground and then having a unrelated engine stall in the cruise. After 25 years of Airbus flying and 16000+ hours I would be hard pressed to believe that the stall was not related to the fuel issue.
    Last edited by Beesblaas; 2022/07/09 at 10:25 PM.
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  5. #43
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

    Quote Originally Posted by heyyahhey View Post
    I grew up around aviation. It just does not work that way.
    I watch Broncolero and Probable Cause with Dan Gryder, I dont think I will be flying in the US.

    Yankees are the last source of advice I would seek for gun safety and flying

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  7. #44
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

    Quote Originally Posted by HugoNotte View Post
    1) the Daily Maverick article should have been fact checked before it was published.
    2) Accra to Johannesburg is a 6 hours flight. If the engine surge had to do with contaminated fuel, why did it happen 5 hours into the flight and not much earlier?
    3) an engine stall is an aerodynamic phenomenon and even as a former jet engine mech, I can’t see a correlation between an engine stall and fuel contamination.

    Criticising the crew for not diverting to Gaborone, into thunderstorms, which may very well cause wind shear on approach or landing, with the power of only one engine just shows lack of understanding of sound decision making. Proper wind shear, or a microburst are difficult to handle and push most aircraft to their performance limits on all engines running, but facing that on one engine might well proof fatal. Anyone who has done a single engine go around in the simulator would know how little performance margin there is.
    After all Johannesburg was rather close and, considering the weather conditions, could have well been the nearest suitable airport in that situation.
    Some might want to read up on the definition of “suitable airport”.
    Quite correct, engine stall is an aerodynamic result but it actually can be caused by fuel control / bleed issues, (where was stall mentioned anyway?). Engine surges and roll back are most definitely be caused by fuel flow issues. It can and has happened after some hours in flight. (Refer BA 777 at Heathrow some years back, where icing in the fuel caused engines to roll back on approach.)

    Now connect the dots. Firstly, fuel contamination is allowed to enter the tanks and it would seem to have caused start issues. In flight you have engine rollback. In modern airliners malfunctions are rare but having a probable symptom of fuel contamination cause essentially an engine failure, points to a common factor.

    Please re-read post #28, where I stated I do not know the conditions prevailing for choosing the best suitable airport. It’s really pointless debating the meaning of suitable, I think all understood it to mean the nearest airport where it can land safely. An airport underneath you is often not the closest for landing, stating the obvious.


    Using single point refuelling, what is the risk on the remaining engine? One report stated that both engines surged, even during approach.

    Point is, a number of serious incidents that have happened on one flight and yes it affects the safety of the airline and its users, the airline's statement in response does not inspire confidence in my book.

    The CEO calls upon the “non negotiable safety management system” – it’s required by law. The same SMS was supposed to enable staff to catch and prevent this sequence of events. Successful?
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  9. #45
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

    Quote Originally Posted by HannesS View Post
    In a decidedly anti-SAA tone that is laced with racist prejudice against a decorated black senior pilot, Captain Vusi Khumalo, he bandies a series of falsehoods about the incident on SAA’s Flight 9053 that flew out of Accra, Ghana on 15 April 2022 under the command of Captain Khumalo.

    The moment he played the race card it means he's got nothing else to defend with.
    If one looks at Prof. Lamola's previous publications it is very clear where his bias lies.
    ....

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  11. #46
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

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  12. #47
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

    Quote Originally Posted by Estee View Post
    I watch Broncolero and Probable Cause with Dan Gryder, I dont think I will be flying in the US.

    Yankees are the last source of advice I would seek for gun safety and flying


    Was not offering advice, Viking. Just stating that the go-no go decision in that case would not have been with the Captain alone.

    And I’m quite sure ‘Murican aviation in general is a hell of a lot safer overall than African aviation. Flown enough around Africa to be pretty confident in that.

    Gun safety - the problem rests with culture and nut bags, not guns or the safety training of the responsible majority.

    Though I am baffled by some who sign for guns for their mentally whacked kids, like this psychopath in Chicago…

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  14. #48
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

    Just a comment about water in jet fuel.

    Generally engines tolerate it quite well, but things can be quite unpredictable when it starts to freeze. It can do this in various places in the fuel and fuel control system, and at various times, depending on how the cold soak progresses in those various places.

    I had an engine out due to water freezing in the FCU (fuel control unit) 2.5 hours into a 3 hour flight. And only on one engine. So assumptions about things being affected in a predictable way by water are not really sound.
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  16. #49
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

    Interesting and quite a straight interview, also explaining why it could not land at the nearest airport:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhGhundUKzw
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  17. #50
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

    ....and then this happened....

    https://www.citizen.co.za/news/south...november-2022/

    My options of flying out on a direct flight is either SAA or Air Peace (Nigerian)
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  19. #51
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

    Talking about contaminated fuel, I flew in a Dana Airline flight in Nigeria and 2 weeks later the same plane crashed about 14 km from Lagos on approach due to fuel contamination.
    On a flight back from Abuja I on Virgin Nigeria 737. Craft had no aircon running when we boarded (APU not running) They used GPU to start engines and only then did aircons start working. When we landed at Lagos when airflaps lifted the amount of leaking hydraulics was mind boggling. Not to mention both these airlines don't exist anymore.
    Flying in with SAA from JHB the aircraft was always shut down prior to parking. The aircraft was then towed to position as they could not navigate gangway to aircraft.
    Its a wonder there aren't many more accidents with the number of flights by African national carriers.

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  21. #52
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

    According to another report, there was an engineer in the SAA cockpit when this happened. He woke up when the wing collided with the Safair rear...
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  23. #53
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

    I have to fly SAA tomorrow.
    Ive been getting emails the past two days saying if I pay an extra R385 I can book up the seat next to me to not have to sit next to anyone.
    How very bizarre!

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  25. #54
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    I have to fly SAA tomorrow.
    Ive been getting emails the past two days saying if I pay an extra R385 I can book up the seat next to me to not have to sit next to anyone.
    How very bizarre!
    Not a bad idea. Then you will also have 2 oxygen masks to yourself...
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  27. #55
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

    flight is empty then...

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  29. #56
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    I have to fly SAA tomorrow.
    Ive been getting emails the past two days saying if I pay an extra R385 I can book up the seat next to me to not have to sit next to anyone.
    How very bizarre!

    Safair also offers the option of booking out the middle seat. But maybe they only pester the passengers of "considerable circumference" about it?
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  30. #57
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeml View Post
    According to another report, there was an engineer in the SAA cockpit when this happened. He woke up when the wing collided with the Safair rear...
    Copy of a voice note received claimed the guy was in the loo !!

    "They were towing it from Charlie 7 and Safair was in Charlie 2 and the towbar unhitched or broke, the engineer in the aircraft that were supposed to monotoring the brakes was in the loo..... 5 bays later the SAA clipped the Safair"
    Last edited by 280iNyati; 2022/11/14 at 05:49 PM.
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  32. #58
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

    SAA is going to grounded soon...due to lack of funds.


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  33. #59
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

    Tow bars can't really break.. they've got shear ratings... the bolts will just brake and disconnect itself from the tug, violent but does happen sometimes.. shouldn't damage the aircraft if used properly.

    The guy in the cockpit really does nothing, he can't brake the aircraft without it being on and the hydraulics all pressurized. He's normally only there for radio calls to the "ground / tower" in case they need him to stop (which he then communicates to the tug driver) and of course to get approval to taxi + park brake and possibly brakes in an emergency but you're flattening the battery chop chop and you will damage the tug/tow bar/aircraft if you slam on brakes.. APU running different story of course.

    I'm not sure of the exact point of impact of these two aircraft, but taxing isn't rocket science... they have painted lines that you must follow, you can't willy nilly cruise around. One of the two aircraft was not on their respective lines so to speak.

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  35. #60
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    Default Re: SAA flight nearly went very bad!

    Quote Originally Posted by jeeperscreepersXJ View Post
    Tow bars can't really break.. they've got shear ratings... the bolts will just brake and disconnect itself from the tug, violent but does happen sometimes.. shouldn't damage the aircraft if used properly.

    The guy in the cockpit really does nothing, he can't brake the aircraft without it being on and the hydraulics all pressurized. He's normally only there for radio calls to the "ground / tower" in case they need him to stop (which he then communicates to the tug driver) and of course to get approval to taxi + park brake and possibly brakes in an emergency but you're flattening the battery chop chop and you will damage the tug/tow bar/aircraft if you slam on brakes.. APU running different story of course.

    I'm not sure of the exact point of impact of these two aircraft, but taxing isn't rocket science... they have painted lines that you must follow, you can't willy nilly cruise around. One of the two aircraft was not on their respective lines so to speak.
    The Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) should be on for towing providing power and basic hydraulics. Normally the tow vehicle is in contact with the tower/ground, smaller aircraft can be towed otherwise but will normally have the means to stop with cockpit operated brakes.

    The Flysafair aircraft was in the parking bay stationary, so probably where it was supposed to be. As far as I have read elsewhere, the tow bar sheared (or broke, it's really the same thing ), and the SAA aircraft rolled apparently uncontrolled with the wingtip to tail impact some distance on.

    Hopefully a suitable board of inquiry will determine all the causal factors to minimise the chance of it reoccuring.
    Last edited by Pointer41; 2022/11/14 at 06:58 PM.
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