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  1. #1
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    Default Lithium and trickle charger...?

    So my setup was as follows.
    C tek 250S DC/DC
    2 x AGM batteries
    C tek MXs 5.0

    So as my vehicle is a holiday vehicle and stands for long periods it was wired so that you plug in 220V via the MXS 5.0 that will then charge via the DC/DC the 2 AGM's and the main battery.

    I have now upgraded to the National Luna DC/DC and a Blue Nova Lithium.

    My question is, is it still a good idea to let the trickle charger via the DC/DC keep the Lithium battery full and maintain the main battery.

    Reason is that I read that it is better to keep a Lithium stored at 80% as to 100%, if the trickle charger is connected it will bring the Lithium to 100% and then float it.

    2nd question the MXs5 also has the option to RECON, I am fairly sure one should not use this option on the Lithium battery

    So should I rather not use the trickle charger via the DC/DC, but how do I then maintain my main battery cause if I connect the trickle directly to main battery it will still go through to DC/DC and Lithium Battery.

    Should I change to a charger that does not have the recon option if I can still use it?
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Lithium and trickle charger...?

    Quote Originally Posted by offroadbiker View Post
    So my setup was as follows.
    C tek 250S DC/DC
    2 x AGM batteries
    C tek MXs 5.0

    So as my vehicle is a holiday vehicle and stands for long periods it was wired so that you plug in 220V via the MXS 5.0 that will then charge via the DC/DC the 2 AGM's and the main battery.

    I have now upgraded to the National Luna DC/DC and a Blue Nova Lithium.

    My question is, is it still a good idea to let the trickle charger via the DC/DC keep the Lithium battery full and maintain the main battery.

    Reason is that I read that it is better to keep a Lithium stored at 80% as to 100%, if the trickle charger is connected it will bring the Lithium to 100% and then float it.

    2nd question the MXs5 also has the option to RECON, I am fairly sure one should not use this option on the Lithium battery

    So should I rather not use the trickle charger via the DC/DC, but how do I then maintain my main battery cause if I connect the trickle directly to main battery it will still go through to DC/DC and Lithium Battery.

    Should I change to a charger that does not have the recon option if I can still use it?
    Can you not switch of the the DC to DC to stop it charging the aux battery? I do not know the Ctek products well, if not, you could always put in an isolator switch between DC to DC and the blue nova. As you are correct that a lithium battery prefers being stored at closer to 50% SOC
    Mike

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  4. #3
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    Default Re: Lithium and trickle charger...?

    The National Luna manual has a description of how to charge the aux battery with an external charger (page 13).

    I would disconnect the main battery from the National Luna if you want to charge it. I do not know if this is necessary but I would do is as a precaution.

    To charge the Blue Nova you need a charger that supports LifePo4. I have a Victron that from the manual it seems that it can be connected to keep the Blue Nova charged.
    Pete Williamson

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  5. #4
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    Default Re: Lithium and trickle charger...?

    Lithium chemistries hate trickle charging.
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  7. #5
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    Default Re: Lithium and trickle charger...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiceman View Post
    Lithium chemistries hate trickle charging.
    I was thinking the same, although the trickle charger will go through the DC/DC still not sure if it is a good idea.

    Otherwise I just need to disconnect the negative pole from the main battery every time I connect the trickle charger?

    I see that the Victron Blue Smart 12Volt 15 Amp charger with Bluetooth has a Lithium option thought....

    The one reason I do have this setup is that I do camp at normal campsites as well where one can park your vehicle under a nice big tree or shade net and then the solar panels on the tent roof becomes obsolete so I just plugged into 220V and all the 12V fridges and lights were still fine over a long period as the batteries was charged via the MXS5
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    Default Re: Lithium and trickle charger...?

    I only know about cell phone Li-Ion batteries and what I read on the internet. The simplest way to sort a Lithium battery out, is to disconnect it from the charger when its full. Do yourself a favour and read up on LiFePo4 batteries. If your charger is certified for LiFePo4 batteries, then it should work. There's a lot of different Lithium battery chemistries with different requirements. Maybe a battery management system will be the best option. I specifically didn't suggest a monitor since it implicates that a person monitors the monitor.
    Current - 2009 Mazda BT50 3.0CRDi 4x4 d/c
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    Default Re: Lithium and trickle charger...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiceman View Post
    Lithium chemistries hate trickle charging.
    Over time we will learn more about this tech. Victron and other manufacturers of lithium do indicate a 13.5-13.7V for trickle. We have a so seen by charging a lithium to 100% shortens the life by a big margin.
    This brings the question - do lithium profiles on chargers that are make for lithium charge to 100% or not?

    Then during trickle a lead acid charges at low current. If a 13.5V fixed voltage is applied to a lithium it charges at a much higher current to about 90% full which improves the life.
    Further a 5 day test was done to charge a 120Ah lithium @ 10A and discharged @20A The same test was done by charging at 20,30 and 40A. In all cases the input vs output was 98% +. This implies that the charge rate is not that important.

    If the lower charge rate will affect the life is not known. This test was thanks to one of our members that shared the link.

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    Default Re: Lithium and trickle charger...?

    Quote Originally Posted by offroadbiker View Post
    I was thinking the same, although the trickle charger will go through the DC/DC still not sure if it is a good idea.<br>
    <br>
    Otherwise I just need to disconnect the negative pole from the main battery every time I connect the trickle charger?<br>
    <br>
    I see that the <span style="font-family: Poppins, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font color="#000000">Victron Blue Smart 12Volt 15 Amp charger with Bluetooth </font></span><span style="font-family: Poppins, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font color="#000000">has a Lithium option thought....</font></span><br>
    <br>
    <span style="font-family: Poppins, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font color="#000000">The one reason I do have this setup is that I do camp at normal campsites as well where one can park your vehicle under a nice big tree or shade net and then the solar panels on the tent roof becomes obsolete so I just plugged into 220V and all the 12V fridges and lights were still fine over a long period as the batteries was charged via the MXS5</font></span>
    <br>
    <br>That charger (Victron) has Absorption, Float and Storage (trickle) disabled when you select the Li-ion profile.



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    Default Re: Lithium and trickle charger...?

    What I understand from Victron is that they just lower the float charge volt setting that it basically cannot charge. For storage its better to disconnect.
    Last edited by JLK; 2021/10/21 at 09:43 PM.
    Johan Kriel

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    Default Re: Lithium and trickle charger...?

    Quote Originally Posted by JLK View Post
    What I understand from Victron is that they lust lower the float charge volt setting that it basically cannot charge. For storage its better to disconnect.

    Which Victron are the referring to?
    The IP65 does what I mentioned above, it disables float.



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    Default Re: Lithium and trickle charger...?

    This is from the Demo mode in the app. On the charger itself, it disables (LED's off) Float, etc.

    Name:  VICTRON IP 65.jpg
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  17. #12
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    Default Re: Lithium and trickle charger...?

    Quote Originally Posted by hatjohan View Post
    Which Victron are the referring to?
    The IP65 does what I mentioned above, it disables float.
    Ok, mostly refers to solar controllers . But the data sheet of the IP65 says 13.5V for float charging.
    Last edited by JLK; 2021/10/21 at 09:48 PM.
    Johan Kriel

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    Default Re: Lithium and trickle charger...?

    The IP65 seems to be an option, but must then be connected directly to the battery.

    In my setup, the Trickle charger is connected via the National Luna DC/DC to the battery.

    I can not get confirmation if the DC/DC has the same function as the IP65 although it has the Lion setting, and as the IP65 will run through the DC/DC will the DC/DC not negate that function from the IP65??


    Then however, if you look at the National Luna Green box which has the same DC/DC in it has a port to connect a charger like the IP65 or other trickle charger, but it does not state if it is just for charging or can one connect a trickle charger over a long time to it.


    As previously my system was set up to maintain 2 AGM's and the main battery and now with the Lithium maintenance seems to be only required for the main battery I think I should change my setup that the main battery is isolated when maintained and thus the Lithium is not charged at all when the vehicle is parked. - =1 Trickle charger for main battery

    I will then only use the current setup when I camp and can not use the solar panels to charge the Lithium battery via the trickle charger and DC/DC, as the 2 fridges and lights will be drawing current the whole time the trickle charger should not bring the Lithium to 100% over an extended period .... = 1 Charger for Lithium when in use and no solar
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    Default Re: Lithium and trickle charger...?

    Testing

    From the Blue Nova Manual.

    Parameter.........Cell V Value 12V Eq ............Comment
    V high cut-off....16.0 V Over voltage.............Battery will isolate automatically.
    V high set.........14.1 V 100% SoC................Constant voltage set point. Charger must pause until V float is reached.
    V bypass...........14.0 V................................Internal set to battery for balancing.
    V float..............13.6 V.................................Charger must reconnect when this voltage is reached.
    V reconnect.......12.0 V.................................Mains or generator must reconnect to charge batteries.
    V low set...........11.6 V.................................Inverter must switch off the load.
    V low cut-off......11.2 V.................................Under voltage. Battery will isolate automatically.

    Don't connect the output of one charger to the input of another. Especially a Smart Charger. The first charger needs to see a battery to be able determine state. If it see's a charger, eg the DC/DC, it will get confused. Performance is highly unpredictable.

    ---------------------

    My choice would be.

    Driving - DC/DC only.

    Camping without Mains - Solar and DC/DC

    Camping with Mains - Ctek Mx 5 connected directly to the battery - but preferably a decent Smart Charger with a Lithium function. Ideally a Smart charger should be left in Power Supply mode when camping, not charging mode.

    When you get home after camping - Charge the battery for a day with the mains charger. Disconnect battery.

    When you go camping again - Charge the battery for a day with the mains charger before you leave.

    Notes -

    1/. If the drive is going to be longer than 3-4 hours, leave out the 1 day pre-charge.
    2/. If the Smart Lithium Charger has a battery maintenance function, the leave it connected as per the manual.
    Last edited by Fluffy; 2021/10/22 at 09:44 AM.
    Cheers

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  21. #15
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    Default Re: Lithium and trickle charger...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Testing

    Don't connect the output of one charger to the input of another. Especially a Smart Charger. The first charger needs to see a battery to be able determine state. If it see's a charger, eg the DC/DC, it will get confused. Performance is highly unpredictable.

    ---------------------

    My choice would be.

    Driving - DC/DC only. Yes - that is the case

    Camping without Mains - Solar and DC/DC Yes that is the case

    Camping with Mains - Ctek Mx 5 connected directly to the battery - but preferably a decent Smart Charger with a Lithium function. Ideally a Smart charger should be left in Power Supply mode when camping, not charging mode. My ctek MX 5 is kaput so thinking of changing it to a Victron IP65 15A charger.

    So you would not connect the IP65 to the DC/DC??

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    Default Re: Lithium and trickle charger...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Testing

    From the Blue Nova Manual.

    Parameter.........Cell V Value 12V Eq ............Comment
    V high cut-off....16.0 V Over voltage.............Battery will isolate automatically.
    V high set.........14.1 V 100% SoC................Constant voltage set point. Charger must pause until V float is reached.
    V bypass...........14.0 V................................Internal set to battery for balancing.
    V float..............13.6 V.................................Charger must reconnect when this voltage is reached.
    V reconnect.......12.0 V.................................Mains or generator must reconnect to charge batteries.
    V low set...........11.6 V.................................Inverter must switch off the load.
    V low cut-off......11.2 V.................................Under voltage. Battery will isolate automatically.

    Don't connect the output of one charger to the input of another. Especially a Smart Charger. The first charger needs to see a battery to be able determine state. If it see's a charger, eg the DC/DC, it will get confused. Performance is highly unpredictable.

    ---------------------

    My choice would be.

    Driving - DC/DC only.

    Camping without Mains - Solar and DC/DC

    Camping with Mains - Ctek Mx 5 connected directly to the battery - but preferably a decent Smart Charger with a Lithium function. Ideally a Smart charger should be left in Power Supply mode when camping, not charging mode.

    When you get home after camping - Charge the battery for a day with the mains charger. Disconnect battery.

    When you go camping again - Charge the battery for a day with the mains charger before you leave.

    Notes -

    1/. If the drive is going to be longer than 3-4 hours, leave out the 1 day pre-charge.
    2/. If the Smart Lithium Charger has a battery maintenance function, the leave it connected as per the manual.
    Can you perhaps explain why the charger needs to be in supply mode when camping with main power?
    Last edited by Spiceman; 2021/10/22 at 10:10 AM.
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    Default Re: Lithium and trickle charger...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiceman View Post
    Can you perhaps explain why the charger needs to be in supply mode when camping with main power?
    A charger determines what to do when charging a battery by sensing what the battery is doing. For instance, it will determine that the battery is charged or charging by measuring how much current it draws. Typically it will determine that a battery is nearing 100% as the current drawn starts to fall to zero, or some specific low limit.

    If you have a fridge/freezer and other things running off the system the charger gets confused. In Power Supply mode the Charger becomes a dumb voltage output, so as the loads draw current the draw that current primarily is supplied from the "Power Supply". For short high current loads the current supply may be shared by the battery and the power supply, proportional to their present state and capability. Once the load is removed (fridge switching OFF eg) the battery will then be "floated" back to the power supply voltage which is essentially a trickle charge.

    That's why the chargers are called Battery Chargers, they are designed to charge batteries not run fridges. To run fridges (loads) you need to put the "Charger" into "Power Supply" mode.
    Cheers

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    Default Re: Lithium and trickle charger...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    A charger determines what to do when charging a battery by sensing what the battery is doing. For instance, it will determine that the battery is charged or charging by measuring how much current it draws. Typically it will determine that a battery is nearing 100% as the current drawn starts to fall to zero, or some specific low limit.

    If you have a fridge/freezer and other things running off the system the charger gets confused. In Power Supply mode the Charger becomes a dumb voltage output, so as the loads draw current the draw that current primarily is supplied from the "Power Supply". For short high current loads the current supply may be shared by the battery and the power supply, proportional to their present state and capability. Once the load is removed (fridge switching OFF eg) the battery will then be "floated" back to the power supply voltage which is essentially a trickle charge.

    That's why the chargers are called Battery Chargers, they are designed to charge batteries not run fridges. To run fridges (loads) you need to put the "Charger" into "Power Supply" mode.
    Thanks Uncle Fluffy.
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    Default Re: Lithium and trickle charger...?

    No



  27. #20
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    Default Re: Lithium and trickle charger...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    A charger determines what to do when charging a battery by sensing what the battery is doing. For instance, it will determine that the battery is charged or charging by measuring how much current it draws. Typically it will determine that a battery is nearing 100% as the current drawn starts to fall to zero, or some specific low limit.

    If you have a fridge/freezer and other things running off the system the charger gets confused. In Power Supply mode the Charger becomes a dumb voltage output, so as the loads draw current the draw that current primarily is supplied from the "Power Supply". For short high current loads the current supply may be shared by the battery and the power supply, proportional to their present state and capability. Once the load is removed (fridge switching OFF eg) the battery will then be "floated" back to the power supply voltage which is essentially a trickle charge.

    That's why the chargers are called Battery Chargers, they are designed to charge batteries not run fridges. To run fridges (loads) you need to put the "Charger" into "Power Supply" mode.
    Noted uncle Fluffy and thanks for the info.
    I have a CTEK MXS10 charger which I'm currently using to charge my Hubble Lithium 100Ah when not travelling and I have become concerned recently that it might not be the right charger for lithium. Can someone perhaps set my mind at ease here because the manual does not make any mention regarding lithium. The MXS10 has car mode (14,4v) AGM mode (14.7v) and power-supply mode (13,6) though. My Optimate 6 however does state in the manual that it shouldn't be used for lithium.
    I have the WRND DC-DC MPPT lithium charger for off-grid use though.
    Perhaps, I should connect the WRND to the Lithium and then the MXS10 to the WRND on power supply mode?

    Thanks
    Last edited by Ray v.Beveren; 2021/10/31 at 07:12 PM.

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