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  1. #1
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    Default Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

    Someone mentioned to me this week that they heard on the radio, Eskom proposes to penalise users which only make use of their supply after hours or at peak demand times.

    Thus, you get charged extra for units consumed during these periods if you do not show consumption during daytime hours.

    I'm not sure if this is something new, or been on the table for a long time.

    This would directly affect those with hybrid systems making use of solar supplement during the day and not having a battery backup to counter for their evening use.

    Anyone with more information on this?

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

    Quote Originally Posted by bloudraad View Post
    Someone mentioned to me this week that they heard on the radio, Eskom proposes to penalise users which only make use of their supply after hours or at peak demand times.

    Thus, you get charged extra for units consumed during these periods if you do not show consumption during daytime hours.

    I'm not sure if this is something new, or been on the table for a long time.

    This would directly affect those with hybrid systems making use of solar supplement during the day and not having a battery backup to counter for their evening use.

    Anyone with more information on this?
    Well first they will have to change all the existing residential energy meters to meter than can do time of use billing.

    Industrial users are all on time of use tarrifs so it's not something new at all.

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    Default Re: Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

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    Default Re: Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

    I would not break my neck based on the mentioned tariff. Where off peak is measured the rate can be as low as 80c/kwh depending on the Mwatt/Mva contract.
    There are so many options at present. As said consumers will have to arrange for new meters before it can be rolled out to the masses.

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    Default Re: Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

    Simple. Install your own izinyonka.

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    Default Re: Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaan Pot View Post
    Well first they will have to change all the existing residential energy meters to meter than can do time of use billing.

    Industrial users are all on time of use tarrifs so it's not something new at all.
    But this is a different proposal if true, they're saying you will pay more in off peak if you don't use power in peak demand times. It's a bizarre notion, goes counter to every single idea of right sizing infrastructure and sustainability. They'll basically be forcing Eskom to build capacity to an artificial peak demand just to have it idling in off peak. It's such a nutcase idea I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's true.
    Nemo me impune lacessit

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    Default Re: Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

    I agree that it would take time to implement any rollout which makes use of this strategy and for it to be fair and accurate.
    My concern is it becoming yet another burden to the few in order to supplement the masses. Every year we see the rise of tarrifs and solar becomes more attractive.

    Eskom is under threat from all angles.

    The more homeowners and businesses are trying to become self reliant because of the failure, capture of Eskom, call it what you want, the more government reralise they can not subsidise those who will not, and can not pay, unless they come up with another plan.
    In every scenario, this proposes that those who can look after themselves also need to look after the rest , and as long as government can sell this concept to the masses they will be voted for.

    I hope I'm not drifting from my own topic, but unfortunately politics seem intertwined when it comes to this subject.

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  11. #8
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    Default Re: Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gungets Tuft View Post
    But this is a different proposal if true, they're saying you will pay more in off peak if you don't use power in peak demand times. It's a bizarre notion, goes counter to every single idea of right sizing infrastructure and sustainability. They'll basically be forcing Eskom to build capacity to an artificial peak demand just to have it idling in off peak. It's such a nutcase idea I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's true.
    Exactly! When the sun shines and you don't make use of their energy, you will be penalized if you make use of it after dark.
    Last edited by bloudraad; 2021/10/02 at 01:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

    Itís an interpretation of wording. They are not penalising anybody for anything. They are discounting off peak rates. Common practise the whole world over.
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    Default Re: Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    It’s an interpretation of wording. They are not penalising anybody for anything. They are discounting off peak rates. Common practise the whole world over.

    So what you're saying is that if I spend a whole lot of money to counter the Eskom mismanagement of the past, I can not benefit from any discounts they offer?
    As mentioned in my original post, this proposal seems to harm those not making use of their supply during daylight /solar hours.
    As far as I can gather the proposal suggests to charge customers more for usage during non daylight hours if it becomes evident that they have exclude Eskom, or provisioned for themselves with regards to usage during daylight hours.
    Perhaps I just perceive things differently, but if the notion of billing you more for less is the future, it certainly coincides with all municipality rates and taxes I'm paying at the moment.
    Last edited by bloudraad; 2021/10/02 at 02:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

    Quote Originally Posted by bloudraad View Post
    So what you're saying is that if I spend a whole lot of money to counter the Eskom mismanagement of the past, I can not benefit from any discounts they offer?
    As mentioned in my original post, this proposal seems to harm those not making use of their supply during daylight /solar hours.
    As far as I can gather the proposal suggests to charge customers more for usage during non daylight hours if it becomes evident that they have exclude Eskom, or provisioned for themselves with regards to usage during daylight hours.
    Perhaps I just perceive things differently, but if the notion of billing you more for less is the future, it certainly coincides with all municipality rates and taxes I'm paying at the moment.
    You do seem a little confused.

    Think carefully - during the day you can capitalize big time on your investment. Mow the lawn, pump some water from the borehole, clean the pool, run the aircon/dishwasher/tumbledrier/oven/geyser/arcwelder you name it.

    When the sun goes down, don't. It's not that complicated.

    Hell you can even charge your batteries when the sun is shining and use that to heat the geyser at 4AM.
    Last edited by Fluffy; 2021/10/02 at 03:24 PM.
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    Default Re: Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

    If this really is on the table, it probably relates to the fact that you can now set up a grid tied system where you feed electricity back into the system from your solar panels during the day, building up credits.

    So if lots of people are going to do this, they will soon sit with an excess of power during the day. These people also don't pay for any usage during the day because of the credits that they built up. So Eskom is desperately scrambling to keep the goose laying those golden eggs.


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    Default Re: Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    You do seem a little confused.

    Think carefully - during the day you can capitalize big time on your investment. Mow the lawn, pump some water from the borehole, clean the pool, run the aircon/dishwasher/tumbledrier/oven/geyser/arcwelder you name it.

    When the sun goes down, don't. It's not that complicated.

    Hell you can even charge your batteries when the sun is shining and use that to heat the geyser at 4AM.
    If it's one tariff at peak times and a lower tariff in off peak, then that's standard and I accept that. If the off peak tariff is dependent on how much (not how little) you use in peak then it's bizarre and designed to punish those who use solar power. I'd love to believe that it's the former, but sometimes the minds of those in charge work in mysterious ways, so I'd not be surprised if the solar owners are penalised. They've already floated the "licensing" of solar idea which also implies you're billed for not using municipal power.

    I would be going balls to the wall on solar if I wasn't thinking of selling and downsizing, I don't think I'd get my money back on a solar investment if I sold in the next 2-3 years.
    Last edited by Gungets Tuft; 2021/10/02 at 03:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    You do seem a little confused.

    Think carefully - during the day you can capitalize big time on your investment. Mow the lawn, pump some water from the borehole, clean the pool, run the aircon/dishwasher/tumbledrier/oven/geyser/arcwelder you name it.

    When the sun goes down, don't. It's not that complicated.

    Hell you can even charge your batteries when the sun is shining and use that to heat the geyser at 4AM.
    I have no problem paying what everyone else pays for the service at any given time.
    If you are going to single me out because I'm preferring not to make use of your unreliable service and charge extra when I do, then your calculations are flawed and will only lead you into a further downward spiral.
    Heck, those who have opted to supplement their supply by installing solar should be compensated for keeping the fragile grid active!

    My post revolves around this issue, whether you are going to be paying extra in "downtime" for deciding not using Eskom service during the day, when solar is in direct opposition to their current revenue generation preference/concept/principal, whatever you want to call it.
    Last edited by bloudraad; 2021/10/02 at 04:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gungets Tuft View Post
    If it's one tariff at peak times and a lower tariff in off peak, then that's standard and I accept that. If the off peak tariff is dependent on how much (not how little) you use in peak then it's bizarre and designed to punish those who use solar power. I'd love to believe that it's the former, but sometimes the minds of those in charge work in mysterious ways, so I'd not be surprised if the solar owners are penalised. They've already floated the "licensing" of solar idea which also implies you're billed for not using municipal power.

    I would be going balls to the wall on solar if I wasn't thinking of selling and downsizing, I don't think I'd get my money back on a solar investment if I sold in the next 2-3 years.
    Where on earth is there any evidence of "If the off peak tariff is dependent on how much (not how little) you use in peak then it's bizarre".

    It only exists in somebodies twisted imagination. The very first post was flawed, with hearsay, and somebodies misguided and uneducated interpretation.

    It's "round the fire beer talk", totally unfounded, and pat ourselves on the back we know everything better.

    I want to see an official statement of intent and implementation of "charging people with Solar System more during {off-peak periods} to punish them".

    Ironically, why cant this be seen as " encouraging people with Solar System to maximise their use during the day to help reduce their Carbon Footprint" Again ironically, that's what all the bunny hugging Solar System implementers profess to be doing. Did somebody mention "Hypocrits"
    Last edited by Fluffy; 2021/10/02 at 04:42 PM.
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  24. #16
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    Default Re: Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Where on earth is there any evidence of "If the off peak tariff is dependent on how much (not how little) you use in peak then it's bizarre".

    It only exists in somebodies twisted imagination. The very first post was flawed, with hearsay, and somebodies misguided and uneducated interpretation.

    It's "round the fire beer talk", totally unfounded, and pat ourselves on the back we know everything better.

    I want to see an official statement of intent and implementation of "charging people with Solar System more during {off-peak periods} to punish them".

    Ironically, why cant this be seen as " encouraging people with Solar System to maximise their use during the day to help reduce their Carbon Footprint" Again ironically, that's what all the bunny hugging Solar System implementers profess to be doing. Did somebody mention "Hypocrits"

    Fluffy, I appreciate your reply.

    I can guarantee you that it was a sober conversation. I too would like to see a "statement of intent' as you mention, but somehow doubt Eskom can recover from the peril they find themselves in without passing the bill onto those who are already paying. They can't keep up with demand and now we have the power ships saga too.
    The current government will not revert and frankly don't stand a chance to recouping the billions owed from their voters. (around the corner).

    Someone is going to have to pay for all of this and it is me and you.

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    Default Re: Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

    TOU (Time of Use) tarriffs makes 100% sense with all the options of "renewable" energy sources available lately. Most non residential and bigger Eskom customers are already on tarriffs with TOU rates, with there being a Low and High season and three rates (Peak, Standard and Off-Peak).

    The fastest pay back on solar is a grid-tied system without having to add any batteries. Payback for commercial customers are currently on just over 4 years. It currently makes absolute sense for businesses (that are able to) to install a correctly sized grid-tied PV system.

    The problem comes in that if more and more businesses do this, Eskom will have excess generation capacity during the day, but not enough at night. They still have to have available full peak generation capacity at all times. It is not easy to start and stop coal fired power stations and it can not be done within seconds as demand changes.

    So the only logical sense would be to have TOU tarriffs. At a certain stage, the difference between Peak, Standard and Off-Peak (based on a customer's demand curve over 24hrs) would make a battery backup/storage system worth the investment. Without differing rates, everyone would install grid-tied solar without batteries, and just keep on making the Eskom demand curve out of balance. The only different factor we have in SA is power outages. It is not the only reason to get batteries.

    In some countries, rates are directly linked to supply and demand. With the recent outages in California, people reported paying 100 fold more for power that what they normally would have. It makes sense for utilities and the total grid, but not so nice for the end-user/customer.
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    Default Re: Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

    Quote Originally Posted by bloudraad View Post
    Fluffy, I appreciate your reply.

    I can guarantee you that it was a sober conversation. I too would like to see a "statement of intent' as you mention, but somehow doubt Eskom can recover from the peril they find themselves in without passing the bill onto those who are already paying. They can't keep up with demand and now we have the power ships saga too.
    The current government will not revert and frankly don't stand a chance to recouping the billions owed from their voters. (around the corner).

    Someone is going to have to pay for all of this and it is me and you.
    I was insinuating that by the time you got the message it had been "around the fire" a few times, not that you weren't sober....
    Cheers

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    Default Re: Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    I was insinuating that by the time you got the message it had been "around the fire" a few times, not that you weren't sober....
    No campfires, got the story straight from the proverbial horseís mouth. I will admit that the person might have his own interpretation of what he heard on the radio😊

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  30. #20
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    Default Re: Eskom penalty tariff rumour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey-D View Post
    TOU (Time of Use) tarriffs makes 100% sense with all the options of "renewable" energy sources available lately. Most non residential and bigger Eskom customers are already on tarriffs with TOU rates, with there being a Low and High season and three rates (Peak, Standard and Off-Peak).

    The fastest pay back on solar is a grid-tied system without having to add any batteries. Payback for commercial customers are currently on just over 4 years. It currently makes absolute sense for businesses (that are able to) to install a correctly sized grid-tied PV system.

    The problem comes in that if more and more businesses do this, Eskom will have excess generation capacity during the day, but not enough at night. They still have to have available full peak generation capacity at all times. It is not easy to start and stop coal fired power stations and it can not be done within seconds as demand changes.

    So the only logical sense would be to have TOU tarriffs. At a certain stage, the difference between Peak, Standard and Off-Peak (based on a customer's demand curve over 24hrs) would make a battery backup/storage system worth the investment. Without differing rates, everyone would install grid-tied solar without batteries, and just keep on making the Eskom demand curve out of balance. The only different factor we have in SA is power outages. It is not the only reason to get batteries.

    In some countries, rates are directly linked to supply and demand. With the recent outages in California, people reported paying 100 fold more for power that what they normally would have. It makes sense for utilities and the total grid, but not so nice for the end-user/customer.

    The UK has a system where they pay top dollar, err Pounds, for feed-in during peak hours. People are using their EV's batteries to subsidise their car installments. Germany and France stopped paying feed-in and penalise PV systems. Many different models around the world, none perfect, and ESKOM isn't necessarily the big bad wolf in this respect. In fact it is not even ESKOM, it's NERSA who regulate and decide these things.

    TOU is actually easy to manage, you don't really have to switch power stations off and on in seconds. Besides, cheaper daytime electricity will encourage power hungry industry to make hay while the sun shines and flatten the curve. (now where have I heard that before. ) One of Eskom's biggest problems is actually the supply and cost of fuel, be that coal or Diesel. The country also have Green and Carbon points to consider. Domestic PV system will save on fuel and pollution.

    The real problem is having to size the network to cover peak demand, and honestly, I think it is a bit naive to use your PV when it suits you and then expect Eskom power to just be there when it suits you. The problem is the billing system. For most of us the network provision or connection charge is pro-rata in you bill. It should be a separate connection fee and energy use charge system, which is essentially what COCT do in a round about way.
    Cheers

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