Results 1 to 10 of 10
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Centurion
    Age
    34
    Posts
    313
    Thanked: 343

    Default Rated recovery points?

    What defines if a point is a rated recovery point please?

    I would like to know if these stock ones can be safe to use in a recovery situation? They are on the chassis two in the front and one in the rear.
    I can see the bumpers on both side getting in the way if the rope is at an angle but straight recovery should work.

    Front

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20211011_080757.jpg 
Views:	59 
Size:	298.5 KB 
ID:	632559
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20211011_080802.jpg 
Views:	56 
Size:	267.8 KB 
ID:	632560

    Rear
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20211011_080721.jpg 
Views:	54 
Size:	291.4 KB 
ID:	632561
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20211011_080736.jpg 
Views:	46 
Size:	198.1 KB 
ID:	632562
    Dont take anything I say as actual advice or fact. I dont.

    Haval H9 2.0T AWD
    Ex 2019 Ranger DC XLT Manual 4x4
    Ex 2017 Ranger DC XL Auto 4x4

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Langebaanweg
    Age
    44
    Posts
    2,445
    Thanked: 1877

    Default Re: Rated recovery points?

    I'd say they are more for towing.

    Like towing a vehicle or this vehicle if it's without fuel for example.
    '07 Land Rover Defender 110 TDI 300 Kalahari (Meisiekind˛)
    '84 Land Rover Defender 110 V8 4-speed Hardtop (Meisiekind) Sold after 12 years of fun and hard work.
    The only thing needed for evil to triumph is for a good man to do nothing.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Kempton Park
    Age
    48
    Posts
    3,898
    Thanked: 1893

    Default Re: Rated recovery points?

    The whole concept of "rated" recovery points is in my view a potentially dangerous concept which is very much abused in the 4x4 industry.

    The concept comes from lifting and rigging practices, where each piece of equipment comes with either a label or tag permanently affixed to the equipment (normally the case with straps and chains) or with a certificate.
    In these applications, these items are strictly controlled, with frequent/regular inspections and so forth.

    I know of NOBODY who supplies recovery points for 4x4's which come with test certificates. Our ropes, straps etc. normally do have labels on them, but I suspect very few of us adhere to the recommended inspection and replacement schedule for such equipment.

    The even bigger problem is that very few people have any idea of what the ratings should be, even if "rated" equipment is used. And even fewer people actually have the knowledge to determine whether such equipment is mounted to the vehicle in such a way that they can effectively transfer such a load to the vehicle without ripping out a chunk of whatever part of the vehicle they are bolted to. Once again, in lifting and rigging, operators are trained to know how to use the equipment, and to evaluate whether the equipment is suitable to the task in hand.

    As a general rule, I feel your recovery points should be able to handle about three times the GVM (gross weight) of your vehicle, but they need also to be the strongest link in the recovery chain. Your snatch rope/strap, shackles etc. should all be weaker. If your snatch strap/rope (in particular) is rated higher than that, your recovery points and any other metal objects need to be stronger. Either that, or replace the snatch with a smaller one.

    Now understand that I don't know how big the components in the photos are, nor how well they are attached, but the front recovery points look fairly beefy and appear to be mounted to what I expect is probably a very strong area of the chassis. I suspect they are at least adequate for any recovery method where momentum of force multiplication is not used. In other words, I feel they should be fine for normal towing and normal winching, but if you have to start tying the winching vehicle to a tree to stop it moving, or haul out the snatch blocks, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate. I would even say that you may be able to snatch to those points IF you used a bridle to share the load equally between both sides of the vehicle.

    The rear points do not inspire me with that much confidence. I think the points themselves are probably adequate, but the way they are bolted to the chassis appears less so. Unless those bolts are much bigger than they appear to me.

    Lastly, especially with regard to the rating of your snatch rope/strap but other recovery items as well, keep in mind that bigger is not always better. Firstly, specifically with regard to snatch equipment, the more you stretch it, the more effective it is. But the higher the rating, the more force you need to stretch it, and thus the more dangerous the situation becomes. Lastly (and this applies to all the equipment), you can conceivably get to a point where you pull the vehicle off it's axles. Pretty sure somebody has.

    Just my two cents.
    Last edited by Peter Connan; 2021/10/11 at 11:08 AM.
    Beat-up rat rod of a '96 Nissan Patrol that bears the evidence of many wonderful adventures (and a few stupid indiscretions).

  4. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Peter Connan For This Useful Post:


  5. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Rustenburg
    Age
    52
    Posts
    4,805
    Thanked: 8797

    Default Re: Rated recovery points?

    Thank you, well said

    There are many things that are considered "good four by four advice" that is just marketing driven as facts..
    _______________________________________
    Andrew van Staden
    FJ - 2 Batteries, a tow bar, OME, Adventurers, and a drawer
    Ex:
    Ranger 3.2, LC 76 V8, Navara 2.5, NP300, Patrol 4.8, Everest 3.0, Jimny 1.3, Defender 110 SW Puma

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Hedgehog For This Useful Post:


  7. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Centurion
    Age
    34
    Posts
    313
    Thanked: 343

    Default Re: Rated recovery points?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Connan View Post
    ...

    The rear points do not inspire me with that much confidence. I think the points themselves are probably adequate, but the way they are bolted to the chassis appears less so. Unless those bolts are much bigger than they appear to me.

    ...
    Thanks that makes a lot of sense. Here are some more pics of the rear one with measurements as reference? I tried to see the bolt but too dark to see inside inside the chassis.

    I have never needed a snatch but its always nice to know what my options are in a situation before hand.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20211011_111516.jpg 
Views:	42 
Size:	237.3 KB 
ID:	632593
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20211011_111546.jpg 
Views:	37 
Size:	252.7 KB 
ID:	632594
    Last edited by PsyPhin; 2021/10/11 at 11:24 AM.
    Dont take anything I say as actual advice or fact. I dont.

    Haval H9 2.0T AWD
    Ex 2019 Ranger DC XLT Manual 4x4
    Ex 2017 Ranger DC XL Auto 4x4

  8. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    De Wildt
    Age
    59
    Posts
    42,754
    Thanked: 19865

    Default Re: Rated recovery points?

    Quote Originally Posted by PsyPhin View Post
    Thanks that makes a lot of sense. Here are some more pics of the rear one with measurements as reference? I tried to see the bolt but too dark to see inside inside the chassis.

    I have never needed a snatch but its always nice to know what my options are in a situation before hand.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20211011_111516.jpg 
Views:	42 
Size:	237.3 KB 
ID:	632593
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20211011_111546.jpg 
Views:	37 
Size:	252.7 KB 
ID:	632594
    Those are 10.9 (900MPa) high tensile bolts. 2 x 12mm diameter bolts give over 67 Kilo Newtons of shear strength.

    I'd say they would survive most recovery attempts except for insanely high load snatches.

    But there are engineers on the forum that can chime in on material strength.
    Jakes Louw
    2012 Jeep Sahara Unlimited 3.6 V6
    Percivamus

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to jelo For This Useful Post:


  10. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Pretoria
    Age
    51
    Posts
    1,362
    Thanked: 2051

    Default Re: Rated recovery points?

    Quote Originally Posted by PsyPhin View Post
    Thanks that makes a lot of sense. Here are some more pics of the rear one with measurements as reference? I tried to see the bolt but too dark to see inside inside the chassis.

    I have never needed a snatch but its always nice to know what my options are in a situation before hand.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20211011_111516.jpg 
Views:	42 
Size:	237.3 KB 
ID:	632593
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20211011_111546.jpg 
Views:	37 
Size:	252.7 KB 
ID:	632594
    It will be better to remove one bolt to physically measure the diameter of it since the shear strength is directly related to the diameter and the material (grade) its made of.
    Current - 2009 Mazda BT50 3.0CRDi 4x4 d/c
    Previous - 2005 Ranger 2.5 tdi 4x2 d/c (277 422km)

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Spiceman For This Useful Post:


  12. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Centurion
    Age
    34
    Posts
    313
    Thanked: 343

    Default Re: Rated recovery points?

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    Those are 10.9 (900MPa) high tensile bolts. 2 x 12mm diameter bolts give over 67 Kilo Newtons of shear strength.

    I'd say they would survive most recovery attempts except for insanely high load snatches.

    But there are engineers on the forum that can chime in on material strength.
    Thanks for this, after looking into 10.9 bolts which I didn't know was a thing, I would feel happy using these points in a recovery situation.
    There does seem to be stronger options out there but maybe overkill for my use. First plan would be to use the 2x front ones together.
    Dont take anything I say as actual advice or fact. I dont.

    Haval H9 2.0T AWD
    Ex 2019 Ranger DC XLT Manual 4x4
    Ex 2017 Ranger DC XL Auto 4x4

  13. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Robertson/ Larissa, Greece
    Age
    57
    Posts
    6,355
    Thanked: 5606

    Default Re: Rated recovery points?

    I am not a John Cadogan fan but the guy talks sense some time. A very interesting video he made on tensile strength etc.
    There is never a right time to do the wrong thing and never a wrong time to do the right thing!

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Francois Theron For This Useful Post:


  15. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Kempton Park
    Age
    48
    Posts
    3,898
    Thanked: 1893

    Default Re: Rated recovery points?

    With a head dimension of 15mm, I would think those bolts are more likely to be M10 than M12 although either is possible.

    Let's assume M10. That gives a combined shear load at yield strength of 7200kg for the two bolts on one hook. However, that has no safety factor.

    I would however say that my recommendation for how to use the rear points would be similar to what I described earlier for the front points. In other words, I reckon you can do normal recoveries of one of those, and spread the load to both points for a snatch (if there are two).
    Beat-up rat rod of a '96 Nissan Patrol that bears the evidence of many wonderful adventures (and a few stupid indiscretions).

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Peter Connan For This Useful Post:


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •