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  1. #21
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexP View Post
    Once the law on 10ppm diesel does take effect, I think that the government should regulate the price of diesel, as it does petrol, and a dedicated task team comprised of government and refinery experts should undertake continuous testing of the diesel on sale at filling stations to make sure that it adheres to the correct standards.
    Genuine question, how often have you found sub-par diesel dispensed in SA?

    I can't say I have ever experienced this so just wondering why we need to spend millions on testing something which is quite well self-regulated?

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by bobscratchit View Post
    E10 in UK

    Aswell as the ban in diesel in Europe soon, this is happening!

    E5 and E10

    www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/what-is-e10-fuel-and-how-could-it-affect-you/
    Won't happen here anytime soon.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    So everything is going electric eventually. Africa does not have the infra structure to sustain electric car chargers everywhere etc etc etc. Do you think it will really happen in Africa?

    Moving away from diesel and petrol do you guys thing the Arab nations with all the oil will allow it?

    And last, what about the the petrodollars? USA will lose so much.
    Whats your thoughts?

  5. #24
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    Electric passenger vehicles might happen in fhe future, but what % of diesel is consumed by passenger vehicles?

    Extra heavy trucks, train locos, generators etc will be running of fossil fuel long after most of us will be pushing daisies.

    IMHO
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  7. #25
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Pint View Post
    Genuine question, how often have you found sub-par diesel dispensed in SA?

    I can't say I have ever experienced this so just wondering why we need to spend millions on testing something which is quite well self-regulated?
    Truth be told, I have experienced such bad diesel in my tank that I had to have the tank drained and professionally cleaned. Granted this was many years ago.

    But a very good buddy of mine worked for a company that specialised in draining and cleaning fuel tanks at garages & depots that had been contaminated. The diesel was taken to specialist companies who re-purified the diesel and then sold it quite cheaply, often being bought by garages in bulk and sold on to the public.
    My other buddy is a fuel injection specialist on Cummins, Cat, Volvo, Perkins amongst others, and he has warned me on numerous times about buying recycled diesel. It often is not refined enough and can cause pump failure which is expensive to repair and recalibrate ect.

    Best advice that he did give me was to buy diesel from depots and garages with a high volume turnover such as truck stops. The diesel is usually cleaner and fresher.
    I met some crazy people.... They made me their leader.

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  8. #26
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    Reported elsewhere on this forum was the experience of purchasing watered down diesel at Twee Rivieren, Kgalagadi filling station recently, but that was due, iirc, to the driver adding water to replace the fuel he "borrowed". The tow and repair were paid by the filling station.

    I'm more concerned with grit / sand getting into my tank while filling or in the garage's tank.
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  9. #27
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch Dassie View Post
    Reported elsewhere on this forum was the experience of purchasing watered down diesel at Twee Rivieren, Kgalagadi filling station recently, but that was due, iirc, to the driver adding water to replace the fuel he "borrowed". The tow and repair were paid by the filling station.

    I'm more concerned with grit / sand getting into my tank while filling or in the garage's tank.
    water in diesel is far worse then grit sand getting into the diesel, filters pre pump filling will take that out and if get any in your tank your filter will filter it out, water in diesel and injectors is a disaster injector tips get worn and can explode,
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  10. #28
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by clivemd View Post
    water in diesel is far worse then grit sand getting into the diesel, filters pre pump filling will take that out and if get any in your tank your filter will filter it out, water in diesel and injectors is a disaster injector tips get worn and can explode,
    and drip on the piston.

    I've added another fuel filter. Both also "trap" water.
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  11. #29
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by MariusFourie View Post
    Being RSA, the first thing I think of, is that refineries made a deal with cadres about this.

    Fuel is cleaner now for the environment but costs more. Half of the increase goes to fuel company and half to politicians.
    Actually not. The refineries are privately owned and it will cost them a fortune to upgrade to European standards of fuel. That is why this "requirement" has been talked about for more than a decade but with no progress. We simply can't afford it. The problem will come when you can't buy a new car that can run on our lower quality fuel. So we've been kicking this can down the road and at some point we may run out of road.

    Quote Originally Posted by LouisXander View Post
    Engen is closing down their refinery converting it into a storage facility, will import fuel and distribute from the refinery, so they will easily overcome this obstacle.
    This is exactly what will happen to other refineries as well. The refineries already do not make money and the cost of upgrading means they will rather spend a fraction of that to change their infrastructure and just import and distribute final product.

    Quote Originally Posted by maxo View Post
    Caltex left Cape Town years ago. The Cape Town refinery is now owned by Astana, but has been closed for more than a year due an explosion. Most fuel in Cape Town is imported at present.
    Astron, not Astana. Currently they plan to restart in July 2022 but it may be even later.
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  13. #30
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    Any idea if MB site is producing any fuel or is it just LPG?
    Peter
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  14. #31
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch Dassie View Post
    I just noticed this posting at: https://mybroadband.co.za/news/motor...JxQtU4ponyaEPg

    "South Africa published regulations that lower the [sulphur] content allowed in the country’s diesel fuel, which may force some oil refineries to upgrade in order to meet the standards.

    Diesel grades allowed for sale may not exceed 10 parts per million, or ppm, according to a government notice on petroleum product regulations dated Aug. 31.

    The rules will come into effect in September 2023.

    Climate-change regulations are prompting a shift away from traditional fuels.

    Many of South Africa’s oil refineries will need to upgrade equipment in order to meet new standards, and may not be competitive operating with their current configurations.

    Some plants are evaluating their options, while others are converting to terminals capable of importing cleaner fuels.

    The higher 50ppm grade accounts for the majority of South Africa’s diesel consumption, according to a 2018 presentation by the South African Petroleum Industry Association.

    It said at the time that '10 ppm production may present a severe challenge.' ”
    SA diesel quality is good. I understand that all diesel manufactured in SA is 10ppm spec. It is cheaper to just sell the 10ppm as manufactured but market it as 50ppm (regulation costs are expensive), or have the leeway to blend up to 50 ppm as advertised than to market it as true 10ppm and then maintain the strict quality regulations. In addition with many of our refineries in sub-optimal state currently most fuel is being imported (at the higher spec anyway). Not good for our economy but good for our diesel engines.

  15. #32
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    Sasol produces petrol, diesel and chemicals at it's plants in Secunda Mpumalanga. This is made from mainly coal that is mined in the area as well as from natural gas coming by pipeline from the Vulanculos area in Mozambique. Due to the process used for the manufacture, the sulphur content of this fuel is close to zero.
    Sasol also refines crude oil at the Natref facility near Sasolburg. Natref is a joint venture between Sasol and Total. Sasol has the majority shares and also operates the facility. The crude oil is imported via pipeline from the coast and diesel and petrol is produced. The sulphur content of the diesel manufactured (refined) in Sasolburg is quite high as the Natref facility was commissioned in 1971 (50 year old technology).
    Diesel produced in Secunda, diesel produced in Sasolburg and diesel imported is blended to meet the specifications, including the sulphur content specifications. It is interesting to note that a 10ppm (parts per million sulphur) diesel will not have more than 10 ppm sulphur, likewise a 500ppm diesel will not have more than 500 ppm sulphur. If you buy a 10ppm diesel, the sulphur content can be anything between 0,1ppm and 50ppm, if you buy a 50ppm diesel, the sulphur content can be anything between 0,1ppm and 50ppm, etc.
    Various oil companies work together to reduce logistical costs and so called "fuel swops" are a very common practice in industry. This means in practice that fuel needed at the coast will most probably be imported or refined at the coast, while fuel produced or refined inland will be used inland. Anyone who have spend time at a bulk fuel depo where trucks and trains are loaded with fuel to be dispatched to the various filling stations will know that you see many different branded fuel trucks loading from the same fuel depot. As an example, if you fill up at a Sasol branded filling station in the Western Cape, the fuel has not been produced by Sasol (with 99,99% probability). The cost of transporting the fuel from Secunda or Sasolburg to Cape Town is just by far too high.
    Older inefficient refineries around the world are and will be phasing out over time as new mega refineries that is run extremely efficient, at low cost and produces fuel meeting the latest international specifications are build around the world. This is called globalisation and economy of scale and is a continuation of the industrial revolution. The cost of putting up a new refinery and running it economically to serve South Africa, will only be possible with massive government incentives or ownership. This will however not make any economical sense, but may be done for political reasons (eg Mossgas Gas-To-Liquids). This phenomenon of globalisation and economy of scale is developing in every industry since the first Ford model T, as an example a vehicle manufacturer in South Africa (eg Toyota) will focus on a specific model (eg Hilux) that will be exported globally while other models will be imported. It is thus not a matter of IF, but rather of WHEN the old South African refineries will be closed and fuel be imported. And neither we or any government can stop this development, because we are part of the world and are driving vehicles of which the fuel specifications are not set nationally but internationally. The Secunda Coal-To-Liquid facility with all of the coal mines feeding it, is currently planned to run up to 2050.
    The oil companies operating in South Africa are all very well aware of these developments and are working together with the government in the planning of the future of fuel needs in South Africa through SAPIA (South African Petroleum Industry Association).

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  17. #33
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch Dassie View Post
    I just noticed this posting at: https://mybroadband.co.za/news/motor...JxQtU4ponyaEPg

    "South Africa published regulations that lower the [sulphur] content allowed in the country’s diesel fuel, which may force some oil refineries to upgrade in order to meet the standards.

    Diesel grades allowed for sale may not exceed 10 parts per million, or ppm, according to a government notice on petroleum product regulations dated Aug. 31.

    The rules will come into effect in September 2023.

    Climate-change regulations are prompting a shift away from traditional fuels.

    Many of South Africa’s oil refineries will need to upgrade equipment in order to meet new standards, and may not be competitive operating with their current configurations.

    Some plants are evaluating their options, while others are converting to terminals capable of importing cleaner fuels.

    The higher 50ppm grade accounts for the majority of South Africa’s diesel consumption, according to a 2018 presentation by the South African Petroleum Industry Association.

    It said at the time that '10 ppm production may present a severe challenge.' ”

    Our local refined and imported "50ppm" diesel has been much closer to 10ppm for a long time.
    It is reported that due to some of the imports varying up to 15ppm or slightly higher Govt decided that all product is classified as 50ppm irrespective of actual Sulphur content.
    So, it is not an exclusive Sasol domain.
    The regulations will make no difference to that what you have been putting in your tank for a long time

  18. #34
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete View Post
    Any idea if MB site is producing any fuel or is it just LPG?
    It produces fuel.
    That's why I pay R15.25/l for 50ppm standard here
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  19. #35
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    Bit confused. So they want to ban 50ppm but I can still buy 500ppm and I just did at our Agri.
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  20. #36
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by jfh View Post
    Bit confused. So they want to ban 50ppm but I can still buy 500ppm and I just did at our Agri.
    Why would you want 500ppm?

    All it does is sludge your oil.
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  21. #37
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    Why would you want 500ppm?

    All it does is sludge your oil.
    My 300TDi was happy on 500 and I always did oil change every 5000KM
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  23. #38
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    Why would you want 500ppm?

    All it does is sludge your oil.
    All it does, is lubricate all the moving parts.
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  24. #39
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Henris View Post
    All it does, is lubricate all the moving parts.
    Sulphur is not a good lubricant
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  25. #40
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    Default Re: South Africa banning 50ppm diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    Sulphur is not a good lubricant
    yes not on its own but when it mixes with other minerals in the fuel it helps with pump and injector lubrication
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