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  1. #41
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    Default Re: The fabled 3500kg towing capacity

    Some time ago, at the Wallmansthal offramp in a Southerly direction, one of these Destinations vans like in the pic wagged a Prado as in the pic. I have added specs so there is a clear idea of the weight of both vehicle and van. I do not know speed or cicumstance of what happened that day. All I could see was that the van/tow combo were completely out of control and veered from the right lane off the road onto the inside dirt, then accross the double lanes, accross the dirt triangle of the onramp, took out the signboard on the outside of the onramp. From there it ran back over the highway and ended up facing in a Northern direction. Fortunately nothing overturned but there was lots of damage that could be seen.
    This past weekend on the way home from Rust de Winter another one of these extra large vans were ahead of me towed by a hilux. It joined the highway at the Hammamskraal onramp and flew away into the direction of Pretoria. If a van that size can upset a Prado, what will it do to a hilux? People can obviously tow 2ton plus but they do not take into account of what all that weight will do once it is upsetted by a crosswind or somethong else. Stupid if you ask me.
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    HENK


  2. #42
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    Default Re: The fabled 3500kg towing capacity

    He's certainly a bit of an acquired taste, but it is rare to find info from someone who has the tech qualifications and is not in the pocket of a manufacturer or advertiser. Top tip - you can play YouTube at 1.5X speed (or faster) :-)

  3. #43
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    Default Re: The fabled 3500kg towing capacity

    If you drive like a tool while towing a heavy load, then you are a tool and should probably not be towing. My son has just done his towing license, and the only thing they teach is how to park with a trailer. They did not cover actually driving with a trailer, taking turns much wider, making use of the gears more, leaving longer braking distance, how to drive down long hills, how not to overtake trucks down hill if you have a caravan etc etc.

    Towing with a heavy trailer, driven properly, is no more dangerous than driving with a 56ton truck that has a much bigger tow vehicle to trailer delta. The problem comes in when people drive with heavy trailers in the same way they would with an empty vehicle.

    I pretty much always drive like a truck driver when I am towing heavy. I tend to limit my max speed to around 100-110km/hr. If I am on a long decent, I use the gearbox in combo with the brakes, to ensure the brakes are always below boiling pt if they are needed. ON a very serious decent, like driving down into Inanda Valley to Inanda Dam, I will decend in first gear, even if it takes ages. But I have never had an issue and have seen quite a few vehicles in bushes on the roadside, when I was driving down there, that did not exercise the same amount of caution. Most importantly I keep left and pass right. Its amazing how many caravaners sit in the overtaking lane and donít move over for anyone.

    Probably the biggest issue, it that the new vehicles are more and more powerful with each new generation and allow previously impossible towing speeds. Towing a 3 ton horse box or Ski boat was never going to be a high speed affair with a 2&1/4 petrol Landrover with 60hp on a good day. Doing it with a 500hp 800Nm vehicle is gets you into a totally different set of problems, that were not possible in the older vehicles.

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  5. #44
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    Default Re: The fabled 3500kg towing capacity

    So if i am not mistaken:

    Amarok V6 Tare is 2070kg


    • It is rated by the manufacturer to tow up to 3500kg braked.
    • In theory, I can legally tow up to 3500kg braked with an EB License
    • GCM 6000kg - Trailer, Payload and Tare as per VW Spec Sheet


    But according to our law here in sunny Souf Efrika,
    I can only tow up to the Tare weight of the vehicle, meaning I can actually only tow 2070kg with a V6 Amarok?
    1985 Toyota Fj45 Landcruiser 4.2 P/U (Sold),
    1991 Jeep Wrangler YJ 4.0 Sport (Sold),
    2006 Toyota Hilux 3.0 D4D D/C Raider (Sold),
    1984 Suzuki Sj410 1.0,(Sold)
    1991 Jeep Wrangler YJ 4.0 Renegade
    2007 Jeep Wrangler JKU 3.8 Sahara
    2014 Jeep WK2 3.6 Overland

  6. #45
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    Default Re: The fabled 3500kg towing capacity

    You are wrong. You can only tow up to tow vehicle tare if trailer has only overrun brakes. You can tow up to manufacturers rating if trailer have proper service brakes.
    Mike Nieuwoudt
    '89 LR 110 V8

  7. #46
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    Default Re: The fabled 3500kg towing capacity

    And "proper service brakes" are not available in SA.

    Snooker.
    Last edited by JohanMaree; 2021/08/17 at 09:23 AM.
    Johan Maree
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  9. #47
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    Default Re: The fabled 3500kg towing capacity

    100% correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by backmarker View Post
    So if i am not mistaken:

    Amarok V6 Tare is 2070kg


    • It is rated by the manufacturer to tow up to 3500kg braked.
    • In theory, I can legally tow up to 3500kg braked with an EB License
    • GCM 6000kg - Trailer, Payload and Tare as per VW Spec Sheet


    But according to our law here in sunny Souf Efrika,
    I can only tow up to the Tare weight of the vehicle, meaning I can actually only tow 2070kg with a V6 Amarok?
    ....

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  11. #48
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    Default Re: The fabled 3500kg towing capacity

    Quote Originally Posted by JohanMaree View Post
    And "proper service brakes" are not available is SA.

    Snooker.
    Like Hydraulic Disc brakes with its own master cylinder on the trailer?
    1985 Toyota Fj45 Landcruiser 4.2 P/U (Sold),
    1991 Jeep Wrangler YJ 4.0 Sport (Sold),
    2006 Toyota Hilux 3.0 D4D D/C Raider (Sold),
    1984 Suzuki Sj410 1.0,(Sold)
    1991 Jeep Wrangler YJ 4.0 Renegade
    2007 Jeep Wrangler JKU 3.8 Sahara
    2014 Jeep WK2 3.6 Overland

  12. #49
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    Default Re: The fabled 3500kg towing capacity

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike N View Post
    You are wrong. You can only tow up to tow vehicle tare if trailer has only overrun brakes. You can tow up to manufacturers rating if trailer have proper service brakes.
    ok where can i reference that in the act?
    1985 Toyota Fj45 Landcruiser 4.2 P/U (Sold),
    1991 Jeep Wrangler YJ 4.0 Sport (Sold),
    2006 Toyota Hilux 3.0 D4D D/C Raider (Sold),
    1984 Suzuki Sj410 1.0,(Sold)
    1991 Jeep Wrangler YJ 4.0 Renegade
    2007 Jeep Wrangler JKU 3.8 Sahara
    2014 Jeep WK2 3.6 Overland

  13. #50
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    Default Re: The fabled 3500kg towing capacity

    Quote Originally Posted by backmarker View Post
    Like Hydraulic Disc brakes with its own master cylinder on the trailer?
    Can be hydraulic, electric or pneumatic.
    Important is that there is a power source actuating the brakes.
    2012 FJ Cruiser
    1983 FJ60 Landcruiser -sold-

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  15. #51
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    Default Re: The fabled 3500kg towing capacity

    Quote Originally Posted by stephenplumb View Post
    Towing with a heavy trailer, driven properly, is no more dangerous than driving with a 56ton truck that has a much bigger tow vehicle to trailer delta. The problem comes in when people drive with heavy trailers in the same way they would with an empty vehicle.
    I agree with this. When I was doing lessons for my BE licence, my instructor taught me the same way he teaches the CE licence. Some of it was a bit overkill, but better that way than the other way.

    In Ireland, the speed limit for towing is 80kph. It's frustrating when you've a small trailer behind a 2T truck on the motorway but makes sense when someone is towing a 1.5T caravan with a family saloon. There's also a recommendation that you don't tow a caravan more than 80% of the kerb weight of the tow vehicle, or 100% for experienced towers. Towing a 3.5T plant trailer with a pallet of cement in it is fine but the weight is high and uneven in a caravan, so I'd never want a 3.5T caravan behind me. My caravan is 1.5T and I regularly have to slow down below 50kph on the bumpy back roads of Ireland because it would quickly get out of control otherwise (and I don't want my stuff flying around inside the caravan).

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  17. #52
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    Default Re: The fabled 3500kg towing capacity

    Quote Originally Posted by backmarker View Post
    Like Hydraulic Disc brakes with its own master cylinder on the trailer?
    I am hopefully getting my trailer upgraded. I fitted an oil filled disk axle last year, however it was cable operated from the overrun coupling.

    I am now chucking the cable operated calipers and replacing with hydraulic callipers and then fitting the hydraulic actuator. My trailer actual mass is now very close to my tare. With no fuel, I am probably around 2000kgs and I have not checked what the tare on the Hilux is, however I am having the trailer registered as a 2500kg GVM to give me some room to work with.

    Should start with the install this week if all goes well. Dead keen to test it next time I am in KZN as I am getting quite tired of the boat thumping into the car every time i apply brakes. This should be completely eliminated with the new setup. I can also allow the trailer to brake independent of the tow vehicle if I should choose for long decents etc.

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  19. #53
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    Default Re: The fabled 3500kg towing capacity

    Quote Originally Posted by stephenplumb View Post
    I am hopefully getting my trailer upgraded. I fitted an oil filled disk axle last year, however it was cable operated from the overrun coupling.

    I am now chucking the cable operated calipers and replacing with hydraulic callipers and then fitting the hydraulic actuator. My trailer actual mass is now very close to my tare. With no fuel, I am probably around 2000kgs and I have not checked what the tare on the Hilux is, however I am having the trailer registered as a 2500kg GVM to give me some room to work with.

    Should start with the install this week if all goes well. Dead keen to test it next time I am in KZN as I am getting quite tired of the boat thumping into the car every time i apply brakes. This should be completely eliminated with the new setup. I can also allow the trailer to brake independent of the tow vehicle if I should choose for long decents etc.
    I do not understand. If you reregistered your trailer why not to match your Hilux's tare? Although the trailer can load your required mass this legal issue is all about the discs and not the weighbridge.
    Even if you upgrade the brakes it is for your own safety and you will still have a bad time with a difficult official who will not listen to your brake issue as the discs are not right.
    Johan Maree
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  20. #54
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    Default Re: The fabled 3500kg towing capacity

    Quote Originally Posted by JohanMaree View Post
    And "proper service brakes" are not available in SA.

    Snooker.
    Perhaps try LA Axles in Germiston and enquire about Carlisle Hydrastar service brakes? They are more into supply for the boating / fishing boat trailers.
    Or Hydrapro Trailer and Marine
    Or Aloe Caravans
    Last edited by Mike N; 2021/08/17 at 02:00 PM.
    Mike Nieuwoudt
    '89 LR 110 V8

  21. #55
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    Default Re: The fabled 3500kg towing capacity

    Quote Originally Posted by backmarker View Post
    ok where can i reference that in the act?
    A careful reading of Regulation 151 of the NATIONAL ROAD TRAFFIC ACT, 1996 (ACT No. 93 OF 1996) and the NATIONAL ROAD TRAFFIC REGULATIONS should do it.

    Brakes on trailers
    151. (1) Subject to the provisions of subregulation (4), no person shall operate on a public road a trailer, ifó
    a. the mass of such trailer and any load thereon is 750 kilograms or less and--
    i. does not exceed half of the tare of the drawing vehicle, unless such trailer is equipped with at least a parking brake or other device for keeping such trailer stationary; or
    ii. exceeds half of the tare of the drawing vehicle but does not exceed such tare, unless such trailer is equipped with a parking brake and either an overrun brake or a service brake;
    b. the gross vehicle mass of such trailer exceeds 750 kilograms but does not exceed 3 500 kilograms and does not exceed the tare of the drawing vehicle, unless such trailer is equipped with a parking brake and either an overrun brake or a service brake; or
    c. the gross vehicle mass of such trailer exceeds the tare of the drawing vehicle or 3 500 kilograms, whichever the case may be, unless such trailer is equipped with a parking brake and a service brake, and where more than one trailer is drawn by a drawing vehicle, the foregoing requirements shall apply in respect of each such trailer, and in such event the gross vehicle mass shall be construed as the total of the gross vehicle mass of all trailers so drawn.
    (2) The service brake of a trailer shall be capable of being operated by the driver of the drawing vehicle while such vehicle and drawing vehicle are in motion.
    (3) If the service or overrun brake of a trailer is capable of being used as a parking brake, a separate parking brake need not be fitted to such trailer.
    (4) Notwithstanding subregulation (1)(c), if a trailer referred to in that subregulation is drawn by a tractor and such tractor is not designed for or capable of operation at a speed exceeding 35 kilometres per hour on a reasonably level road, such trailer may be equipped with an overrun brake in lieu of a service brake.
    Mike Nieuwoudt
    '89 LR 110 V8

  22. #56
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    Default Re: The fabled 3500kg towing capacity

    Quote Originally Posted by JohanMaree View Post
    I do not understand. If you reregistered your trailer why not to match your Hilux's tare? Although the trailer can load your required mass this legal issue is all about the discs and not the weighbridge.
    Even if you upgrade the brakes it is for your own safety and you will still have a bad time with a difficult official who will not listen to your brake issue as the discs are not right.
    The boat trailer can easily exceed the tare. 2500kgs is about the lightest I can get away with. The trailer will be fully legally compliant with the new setup.

  23. #57
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    Default Re: The fabled 3500kg towing capacity

    I thought id ask the insurer here is there response:

    in summary:

    You can tow heavier than the Tare if:


    • You have service brakes on the trailer
    • You have an EB license
    • You do not exceed 3500kg towing on license restriction
    • You do not exceed Gross Combined Mass of the vehicle or in other words the trailer must not exceed GVM of the vehicle



    Should the trailer be equipped with its own braking system and fall into the category of 751 kg to 3 500 kg GVM, then the Tare of the drawing vehicle must be more than or equal to the GVM of the trailer! If you have brakes fitted to the trailer you can tow up to your vehicle’s GVM providing that you do not exceed the 3500 kg trailer GVM. If you are going to tow a trailer that exceeds 3500 kg GVM, the trailer must have a service brake in addition to over-run brakes.
    In addition to this there are other parameters that define what your car may or may not tow. The GCM or Gross Combined Mass has to be displayed on a vehicle’s identification plate. To determine what the vehicle may tow you have to subtract the GVM from the GCM, i.e. GCM less the GVM = 2925 kg -1725 kg = 1200 kg
    Brakes: Roadworthy requirements
    • Any trailer up to 750 kg GVM requires a parking brake.
    • Trailers weighing between 751 kg and 3 500 kg require a parking brake and overrun brake/service brake.
    • Trailers weighing in excess of 3 500 g require a parking brake and service brake.
    It is interesting to note that a parking brake can be a brick behind a wheel.

    Gross combination mass (GCM): As the term implies, it is the sum of the GVM of the towcar and the vehicle manufacturer’s maximum towing capacity for that vehicle – that is, the mass of the fully laden tow vehicle plus the maximum towing capacity as stated by the manufacturer.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by backmarker; 2021/08/19 at 11:00 AM.
    1985 Toyota Fj45 Landcruiser 4.2 P/U (Sold),
    1991 Jeep Wrangler YJ 4.0 Sport (Sold),
    2006 Toyota Hilux 3.0 D4D D/C Raider (Sold),
    1984 Suzuki Sj410 1.0,(Sold)
    1991 Jeep Wrangler YJ 4.0 Renegade
    2007 Jeep Wrangler JKU 3.8 Sahara
    2014 Jeep WK2 3.6 Overland

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