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Thread: Climate science

  1. #81
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    Default Re: Climate science

    Quote Originally Posted by Bex View Post
    I did not watch the video of Ben Davidson, I was more interested in the elitists direction your post was going, it was only a slight hint of it, but heyyahhey's post is giving it some substance.


    Like it or not, you are dismissing the majority of the world population as unable to understand the complexities and this leaves you with not many options as to how they need to be "handled" , either subjugation to a ruling class or elite, or allow them into the debate so that they can be educated.

    Yes there are those that are un-educateable, but debate will expose them for what they are.

    I am sure that I agree with both of you about the complexities of science.
    Elitist controlling the un-educated? What rubbish! I get the impression that you have not read anything I have posted on this matter and just commenting on the poster. How does pointing out that in my opinion that we have a snake oil salesman in play here make me a controlling elitist? Ben Davidson is not some poor guy that needs information he has his own entrenched view which he makes money out of. He needs the debate as a marketing exercise to make money so here's your manipulating elitist if you are looking for one, perhaps you should actually check this out. Disagree with me on my opinion if you wish but as a common courtesy it would be nice if you actually do so from a more informed position by addressing the content as opposed to the poster so that we can shift the discussion into a more mature one.

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    Default Re: Climate science

    Quote Originally Posted by River Rat View Post
    Elitist controlling the un-educated? What rubbish! I get the impression that you have not read anything I have posted on this matter and just commenting on the poster. How does pointing out that in my opinion that we have a snake oil salesman in play here make me a controlling elitist? Ben Davidson is not some poor guy that needs information he has his own entrenched view which he makes money out of. He needs the debate as a marketing exercise to make money so here's your manipulating elitist if you are looking for one, perhaps you should actually check this out. Disagree with me on my opinion if you wish but as a common courtesy it would be nice if you actually do so from a more informed position by addressing the content as opposed to the poster so that we can shift the discussion into a more mature one.
    I do not disagree with your opinion that he may be a snake oil salesman, I disagree with the opinion that he should not be allowed to debate the scientists if they are so disposed.
    This argument of mine seems to be relevant to the thread?

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    Default Re: Climate science

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    you actually support my argument: scientists follow grant money...........
    And YouTube channels do not chase clicks and views? Thus we can believe them?

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    Default Re: Climate science

    Quote Originally Posted by JS-V8 View Post
    And YouTube channels do not chase clicks and views? Thus we can believe them?
    Didn't say that. All I'm saying is that they're all after money and fame. There is always some carrot.
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  5. #85
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    Default Re: Climate science

    Quote Originally Posted by Bex View Post
    I do not disagree with your opinion that he may be a snake oil salesman, I disagree with the opinion that he should not be allowed to debate the scientists if they are so disposed.
    This argument of mine seems to be relevant to the thread?
    Disagreeing with my opinion is absolutely relevant however implying that I'm an elitist trying control the uneducated isn't. To the point regarding the debate, I posted a link to a scientist that took him on only to find himself subjected to a whole lot of vitriol with very little contribution to educating anybody. So I don't blame other scientists for recognising that he or she is being set up and refusing to enter the debate.

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    Default Re: Climate science

    Fascinating discussion: I find myself mostly agreeing with both sides. Many many mistakes attributable to scientists. As they say: 'its not an exact science itself'.
    However, over time, weight of evidence, general scientific consensus by those who know, does bring some 'theories' as close to being 'facts' as is possible.
    If you are discussing one of those theories with a person who does not want to be convinced, and/or has some other agenda making them believe, or at least pretend to believe alternatives, then debate is an utter waste of time. And the scientist cannot win that one, ever. I do not try and convince such people.
    And this thing about elites - yeah , I know, a big right wing talking point. I'll concede that. But, I happen to agree that the vast majority of the worlds population is certainly, demonstrably unable to make decisions around, for example, climate change. Does that mean that elected leaders have to tell them what to do? Most certainly it does. That is precisely why leaders are supposed to lead. Its not a perfect system, but I would rather that than any alternative I know of.
    PS: It is pretty amusing when American republicans rail against elites, with the vocabulary and wealth of a Harvard graduate.
    Many folk seem, when convenient, to have a romantic notion about the equality of everybody, that suggests that all are equally able to perform all tasks.
    I think that is garbage, and, quite frankly, I am not even sure if that extends to voting in a democracy, the right to which I wish could be qualified in a democracy.
    D

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    Default Re: Climate science

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    Oh, so evolution of the human race from primate to sapiens has been proven then? OK.
    If you are honestly curious about our origins, this is the best book I have read on the subject. Heck, I even got my daughter to read it a few years ago.Name:  Screenshot_20210727-143854_Kindle.jpg
Views: 79
Size:  38.9 KB

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    Default Re: Climate science

    Quote Originally Posted by RoelfleRoux View Post
    If you are honestly curious about our origins, this is the best book I have read on the subject. Heck, I even got my daughter to read it a few years ago.
    I don't believe in the missing link. I won't elucidate.
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    Default Re: Climate science

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    While they still make use of all the tech that is causing the problem.........

    Sorry, you can't have uncontrolled population growth and steadily increasing over-supply and under-demand and have your cake and eat it.

    major issues to be addressed:

    - radical and immediate population control: 1 child or less for 40 years worldwide
    - radical and immediate implementation of traffic control : no private vehicles unless it is a bicycle or at most an EV supplied by solar, wind, or another "renewable", implemented worldwide, all public vehicles must be EV or conform to extreme environmental restrictions
    - all coal use banned
    - all deforestation banned
    - closed loop sustainable farming only: aquaponics, hydroponics, green houses etc
    - no more beef, chicken, mutton
    - no more high volume low yield proteins like soya
    - synthesized foods
    - all mining strictly controlled and restricted to critical minerals only, based on a quota and demand
    etc

    Is this possible? Without a global dictatorship, no.

    You guys are arguing from the premise that the issue is correctable without significant intervention. It isn't. So the argument is moot. Get over it. Move on.
    Eish.. you quote a paragraph from my post and use it to attack..
    I made it quite clear that the action required will be disruptive to our lives. I also pointed out that looking after the environment will push down on economy and productivity.
    All of the above will get a goverment voted out very quickly. So yeah, this generation isn't going to do much about it, and the next generation will HAVE to live with it, and deal with it.

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    Default Re: Climate science

    Quote Originally Posted by RoelfleRoux View Post
    If you are honestly curious about our origins, this is the best book I have read on the subject. Heck, I even got my daughter to read it a few years ago.Name:  Screenshot_20210727-143854_Kindle.jpg
Views: 79
Size:  38.9 KB
    I enjoyed Jared Diamond book Collapse, though he was critiqued for it by many scientists for his oversimplification I think.
    Last edited by Bex; 2021/07/27 at 03:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Climate science

    Quote Originally Posted by IanK View Post
    Fascinating discussion: I find myself mostly agreeing with both sides. Many many mistakes attributable to scientists. As they say: 'its not an exact science itself'.
    However, over time, weight of evidence, general scientific consensus by those who know, does bring some 'theories' as close to being 'facts' as is possible.
    If you are discussing one of those theories with a person who does not want to be convinced, and/or has some other agenda making them believe, or at least pretend to believe alternatives, then debate is an utter waste of time. And the scientist cannot win that one, ever. I do not try and convince such people.
    And this thing about elites - yeah , I know, a big right wing talking point. I'll concede that. But, I happen to agree that the vast majority of the worlds population is certainly, demonstrably unable to make decisions around, for example, climate change. Does that mean that elected leaders have to tell them what to do? Most certainly it does. That is precisely why leaders are supposed to lead. Its not a perfect system, but I would rather that than any alternative I know of.
    PS: It is pretty amusing when American republicans rail against elites, with the vocabulary and wealth of a Harvard graduate.
    Many folk seem, when convenient, to have a romantic notion about the equality of everybody, that suggests that all are equally able to perform all tasks.
    I think that is garbage, and, quite frankly, I am not even sure if that extends to voting in a democracy, the right to which I wish could be qualified in a democracy.
    D
    Equal outcome should never be a goal as it cannot be achieved without unequal rights.
    Equal rights is a better goal but will forever mean unequal outcomes.
    Those in power however often promised both in order to gain power.

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    Default Re: Climate science

    Quote Originally Posted by RoelfleRoux View Post
    Eish.. you quote a paragraph from my post and use it to attack..
    I made it quite clear that the action required will be disruptive to our lives. I also pointed out that looking after the environment will push down on economy and productivity.
    All of the above will get a goverment voted out very quickly. So yeah, this generation isn't going to do much about it, and the next generation will HAVE to live with it, and deal with it.
    Didn't attack you at all. I'm attacking the privileged generation that criticizes but refuses to give up the freedoms and benefits accruing from their parents.

    The next generation will have to die to see any change. Of that there is no doubt.
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    Default Re: Climate science

    Quote Originally Posted by Bex View Post
    Equal outcome should never be a goal as it cannot be achieved without unequal rights.
    Equal rights is a better goal but will forever mean unequal outcomes.
    Those in power however often promised both in order to gain power.
    Indeed. We are NOT all created equal, hence we cannot and should not all have the same benefits. Equal OPPORTUNITY is one thing, but equal STATUS is another and that is determined by your net worth, be that financial or intellectual.

    I'm not rich 'cos I'm not especially bright, educated or productive. How in hell can I hold a rich man's wealth against him if he is?
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    Default Re: Climate science

    Quote Originally Posted by Bex View Post
    Equal outcome should never be a goal as it cannot be achieved without unequal rights.
    Equal rights is a better goal but will forever mean unequal outcomes.
    Those in power however often promised both in order to gain power.
    Somehow someday we will find an answer and my opinion currently is that the answer will lay somewhere with everyone taking personal responsibility, which circles back to the OP.
    Before that becomes possible however an answer on how to reduce the power in the "centers of power", whether governmental or capitalistic power.
    Ill admit that I don't know much about what I am talking about now and have no idea how to tackle it, I can surmise however that if tackled from the bottom up it will be a bloody battle, as I don't see those in power relinquishing it, and I also think that the environment will be the spark that starts it.

    Which is why environmental studies interest me.

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    Default Re: Climate science

    yip, I must admit I don't feel fantastically optimistic about the direction that western civilizations are taking at the moment.
    It feels to me that some freedom, some rights, and some democracy, has led to a mad shift over time towards absolute rights (which do not exist), absolute freedom (which will always compromise the freedom of somebody else) and deliberate attempts to manipulate voting rights to achieve political ends.
    I believe that we have moved away from the truths that established the bedrock of western democracies, and are paying the price. And will continue to pay the price.

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  21. #96
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    Default Re: Climate science

    Quote Originally Posted by IanK View Post
    I believe that we have moved away from the truths that established the bedrock of western democracies, and are paying the price. And will continue to pay the price.
    Democracy was always a lofty belief that the masses can control the leaders.

    This is a fallacy. Politicians will still manipulate the voter either directly or indirectly.

    We've seen this enough in Africa.
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    Default Re: Climate science

    Quote Originally Posted by Bex View Post
    Somehow someday we will find an answer and my opinion currently is that the answer will lay somewhere with everyone taking personal responsibility, which circles back to the OP.
    Before that becomes possible however an answer on how to reduce the power in the "centers of power", whether governmental or capitalistic power.
    Ill admit that I don't know much about what I am talking about now and have no idea how to tackle it, I can surmise however that if tackled from the bottom up it will be a bloody battle, as I don't see those in power relinquishing it, and I also think that the environment will be the spark that starts it.

    Which is why environmental studies interest me.
    Personal responsibility is great but on its own it misses the mark, we need to add joint accountability to this because our environment is a collective problem. Where modern society is failing in my opinion is we leaving the accountability problem to the government of the day forgetting that as a collective we decide who the government is. The adage that elections have consequences is fundamental, we can't have people just complaining about the government as opposed to my government. By adopting the latter we recognise that if it's mine I can change it, having said this I acknowledge that in a fledgling democracy like ours that we are way off understanding this concept.

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    Default Re: Climate science

    Quote Originally Posted by River Rat View Post
    Personal responsibility is great but on its own it misses the mark, we need to add joint accountability to this because our environment is a collective problem. Where modern society is failing in my opinion is we leaving the accountability problem to the government of the day forgetting that as a collective we decide who the government is. The adage that elections have consequences is fundamental, we can't have people just complaining about the government as opposed to my government. By adopting the latter we recognise that if it's mine I can change it, having said this I acknowledge that in a fledgling democracy like ours that we are way off understanding this concept.

    Which brings it right back to personal responsibility.

    I have not yet sat on a hill top and let my mind wander about whether I think that will be at all possible without a religion with principals by which it is self governed, be it Big Brother, God, Science or Nature, to circle back to the OP.
    Last edited by Bex; 2021/07/27 at 05:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Climate science

    Quote Originally Posted by Bex View Post
    Which brings it right back to personal responsibility.

    I have not yet sat on a hill top and let my mind wander about whether I think that will be at all possible without a religion with principals by which it is self governed, be it Big Brother, God, Science or Nature, to circle back to the OP.
    Indeed. Humanists would say it is our right to pillage as long as humans get what they want?

    A more theological stance would be that we first do no harm.......and that is a common thread through most established religions (Satanism falls under Humanism as a basic self absorbed belief).
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    Default Re: Climate science

    Aspiration, patience and frugality.

    consumerism is partially to blame, which is driven by capitalism.

    But then economic growth is unsustainable without consumerism.

    but things are changing, young people consume more stuff virtually than physically


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