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  1. #1
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    Default Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    Based on another thread around here where this topic came up...

    I've been thinking of fitting a Facet electrical fuel pump to my 300 Tdi Disco.

    As far as I can see, the correct pump for the application is Facet no. 60301. It's a plastic unit, suitable for petrol and diesel, and has a lift capability of just over 1 metre. Pressure somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 bar I think. With a not-return valve built in.

    The only one I can source at a local parts store is Facet no. 40242.

    Can anyone shed some light on where I could perhaps shop a more comprehensive range of these pumps?

    Or any other comments welcome too.



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    Default Re: Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    Antz

    Nice to see you posting about yor Landy

    I would like to understand your logic/need for an electric fuel pump plse

    How is mister four door doing and is miss two door on leave ?

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    Default Re: Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    My personal opinion/experience is - stay away from facet pumps unless you have a back-up. I have never had a facet pump that hasn't let me down, be it in a diesel, petrol, platkar, 4x4 or agricultural vehicle.
    Ettienne de Kock

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    I think it's a great replacement for the old lift pump.

    When my lift pump goes south, I will also replace it with one.
    '07 Land Rover Defender 110 TDI 300 Kalahari (Meisiekind˛)
    '84 Land Rover Defender 110 V8 4-speed Hardtop (Meisiekind) Sold after 12 years of fun and hard work.
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    Just fit the Midas/Autozone type metal body pumps. They do the same job, just cheaper.



    I used this type as a lift pump on all my Landies, from V8 to Series 2.

    I can't see that it won't work for the 300TDi.

    shouldn't be more than R500.

    Just make sure you feed it with a fused 12v from the ACC portion of your fusebox. (only runs when ignition is on).
    Last edited by jelo; 2019/10/18 at 07:06 AM.
    Jakes Louw
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    I'm using the cheap Chinese one from Midas too. Powered from the fuel cut solenoid on the injector pump.
    Rob
    Defender 90 pickup. Lexus V8, Spitronics, 33" KL71, beadlocks, +2" Terrafirma, ATB's, 3.75 CW&P, 1.21 TC.
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    Quote Originally Posted by RossJ View Post
    Antz

    Nice to see you posting about yor Landy

    I would like to understand your logic/need for an electric fuel pump plse

    How is mister four door doing and is miss two door on leave ?
    Hi Ross, nice to hear from you too.

    Electric fuel pump - my logic. It's simple. The mechanical one is so reliable - I would like to introduce a bit more electronics/electrickery into the car to reduce the reliability a bit (wait... did I get this wrong?...)

    OK, the real reason. I got 90 000 km from my last lift pump, which is pretty OK actually. Sometimes one gets far less. But when it's time for replacement, I like to think about how best to spend the money to replace it, and whether an electric pump will be a true upgrade or not.

    Some advantages I can think of:

    - the original system is only self-bleeding if you crank the engine (unless you use that little lever thing, which isn't very effective on all pumps, and seems to vary from pump to pump - and yes, I know about the cam position and rotating the engine a bit if necessary). The electric pump will be self-bleeding just by connecting power. Meaning that if you have a very cold day and limited cranking power, there's a greater chance of starting on the first swing if there's any sort of drain back to the tank.

    - the mechanical pump tends to become less and less effective so you can't really gauge just when it started failing. Eventually it becomes ineffective enough that you notice something and then have to start checking around for problems. The electric pump should be easy to monitor - if it's clicking, it's probably pumping!

    - with the electrical pump, there's one less mechanically-driven thing off the cam. One less potential leaking place/hole/friction point to worry about on the block. (same applies to the vacuum pump and just blanking that hole off for once and for all - less chance of oil loss!). One less lever to break off and fall in the engine... etc.

    - electric pump is useful if ever you need to pump fuel out of the tank for some reason (don't know why?)

    - I can install a little window of clear pipe to check, once and for all, if any air leaks become a problem again (struggling with this now).

    - the original Facet pump is rated for 6000 hours. So it's a better use of R500 perhaps.

    ----------------------------------------

    How is the new one doing? I'm very happy with her - still needs a name. I've moved so many parts across from the 2-door one around the engine (turbo, injectors, injector pump, etc. which I know the mileage of and have a service record for). Sump compression will become an issue in the future though...

    The 2-door is slowly but surely being stripped for parts. Some I'm keeping and some are being sold off to defray expenses. When everything's out, someone's coming for the body to make it into a race car or something...



  8. #8
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    Default Re: Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    Quote Originally Posted by EttiennedK View Post
    My personal opinion/experience is - stay away from facet pumps unless you have a back-up. I have never had a facet pump that hasn't let me down, be it in a diesel, petrol, platkar, 4x4 or agricultural vehicle.
    Good point made here. As with a lift pump, I should have a spare in the car. Or just install two of them and block the one off... they're small and cheap enough...



  9. #9
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    Default Re: Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    Just fit the Midas/Autozone type metal body pumps. They do the same job, just cheaper.



    I used this type as a lift pump on all my Landies, from V8 to Series 2.

    I can't see that it won't work for the 300TDi.

    shouldn't be more than R500.

    Just make sure you feed it with a fused 12v from the ACC portion of your fusebox. (only runs when ignition is on).
    Some of the cheap generic ones from Midas are just over R200. I might consider this - it's just I don't have specs on them.

    I also believe it will work on the Tdi. I'm just slightly worried about the amount of lift needed, especially as diesel is a bit more viscous than petrol, and the flow rate through the pump and back along the return line, required by the 300 Tdi, is quite high (from my observation).

    My main concern is that the mechanical pump actually increases delivery with higher RPM. I don't know what the injection pump does in terms of handling the inlet pressure by closing off the return line under higher accelerator openings or by means of a valve or something? Meaning that the inlet pressure seen by the pump might be different using the electric pump. I don't have enough info yet to know if this is a valid concern.

    I suppose the only way to find out is to try it... :-)



  10. #10
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    Default Re: Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    Quote Originally Posted by Hagu13 View Post
    I'm using the cheap Chinese one from Midas too. Powered from the fuel cut solenoid on the injector pump.
    On your Disco 1 300 Tdi? For how long have you been using it? I seem to recall from another post, that you installed it close to the battery on that flat bit above the wheel well?

    How did you "tap in" to those hard plastic lines that come up under the car from the tank? Or did you replace the whole line up to the sedimenter?



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    Default Re: Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    Quote Originally Posted by antvz View Post
    My main concern is that the mechanical pump actually increases delivery with higher RPM. I don't know what the injection pump does in terms of handling the inlet pressure by closing off the return line under higher accelerator openings or by means of a valve or something? Meaning that the inlet pressure seen by the pump might be different using the electric pump. I don't have enough info yet to know if this is a valid concern.

    I suppose the only way to find out is to try it... :-)
    The mechanical injection pump has a return line for excess diesel.



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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    My experience with a facet pump. I installed one of the plastic units in a 1988 golf 1 diesel which I still own, and is currently used by my two youngest as their varsity transport. It lasted 3 months more or less. An old sage then informed me that to get the best possible life out of them, they need to be installed as close as possible to the vertical position (I installed it horizontal), with the inlet at the bottom. I then bought exactly the same pump, and did as he said. This was 15 years ago. The same pump is still in use, and the little golfie is going like the clappers.

    Groetnis

    Koos
    Last edited by Beurvoort; 2019/10/18 at 03:26 PM.

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  14. #13
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    Default Re: Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    The mechanical injection pump has a return line for excess diesel.



    Thanks Jelo.

    So if I understand this correctly, the "spill back valve" regulates how much diesel gets to go back along the return line. Presumably, if the fuel supply pressure to the IP exceeds a certain value, this valve opens (probably progressively). Meaning that, if the fuel supply to the IP via the lift pump exceeds the demand by the IP, the fuel pressure in the input line to the IP rises and this "spill back valve" opens to relieve the pressure via the fuel return line. Assuming that there is adequate flow rate from the lift pump, this means that the "spill back valve" regulates the pressure of fuel supplied to the IP.

    Hence, if you can read better than I can write/explain, you might see the reason for my concern prompted by the post of mine to which you replied.

    The mechanical lift pump supplies fuel to the IP at a flow rate which is (sort of) proportional to the engine RPM. At relatively high RPMs a lot of fuel is being supplied. And a lot of fuel is being used if the accelerator is completely depressed. The electric lift pump must be able to maintain adequate flow rate to ensure that the fuel pressure supply to the IP remains within spec under these conditions (full depression of accelerator pedal).

    On the other hand, when the engine is just idling (ticking over), the mechanical pump is probably supplying much less fuel. And the IP is demanding almost nothing. The "spill back valve" is probably quite wide open, allowing most of the fuel to return to the tank. Now, in the case of an electric pump, it will STILL be supplying fuel at the maximum flow rate. If the "spill back valve" is not designed to adequately handle these conditions (which would normally only occur for a short period of time, e.g. decelerating or driving against compression down a mountain pass), the supply pressure to the IP will be too high (out of spec).

    We do not know the long-term implications of running the IP with input pressures higher than what it's designed for. Some homework done here could save some school fees deep in the bush somewhere.



  15. #14
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    Default Re: Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    Quote Originally Posted by antvz View Post

    We do not know the long-term implications of running the IP with input pressures higher than what it's designed for. Some homework done here could save some school fees deep in the bush somewhere.
    Well, on some pumps, the pressure exceeds the O-rings and seals and dumps diesel into the sump............

    Mitsu 4M40 comes to mind.
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  16. #15
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    Default Re: Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    Well, on some pumps, the pressure exceeds the O-rings and seals and dumps diesel into the sump............

    Mitsu 4M40 comes to mind.
    Ouch. That's not nice at all, and diesel in the sump is not easily detected especially if the car uses a bit of oil anyway.

    Thankfully the 300 Tdi IP doesn't come anywhere NEAR the engine oil and tends to leak to the outside if something goes...



  17. #16
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    Default Re: Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    Quote Originally Posted by antvz View Post

    Thankfully the 300 Tdi IP doesn't come anywhere NEAR the engine oil and tends to leak to the outside if something goes...
    Then it's easy to detect. Those pumps are low pressure, I'd say go for it.
    Jakes Louw
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  19. #17
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    Default Re: Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    Ok, based on the above comments and advice, I decided to fit the Facet pump. This after another hard-starting incident when the lift pump just didn't take up any fuel.

    The car seems to run very nicely with it.

    I fitted it on the inside of the front, drivers-side fender. You can hear it a bit from inside the car.

    I'll still replace the total length of pipe from the tank to the pump.

    So far I'm happy to know that I can bleed the system properly at any time, without cranking the engine. And drain fuel from the tank or use another fuel source (don't know why though).



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  21. #18
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    Default Re: Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    Photo...



  22. #19
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    Default Re: Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    The one I looked at had rubber bushings that isolate it from the rest.

    Might reduce sound.
    '07 Land Rover Defender 110 TDI 300 Kalahari (Meisiekind˛)
    '84 Land Rover Defender 110 V8 4-speed Hardtop (Meisiekind) Sold after 12 years of fun and hard work.
    The only thing needed for evil to triumph is for a good man to do nothing.

  23. #20
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    Default Re: Facet pump for 300 Tdi

    Rather use a rotary pump
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