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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Questionable engine designs

    I think a voltage gauge constantly reading 14.2V would be boring as would a temperature gauge that only varies from 82 to 84 degrees C. For the latter, we have idiot lights that move from two bars to four bars at 83 degrees.

    I have added a boost gauge. An EGT gauge would be nice PER CYLINDER.
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    Default Re: Questionable engine designs

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch Dassie View Post
    I think a voltage gauge constantly reading 14.2V would be boring as would a temperature gauge that only varies from 82 to 84 degrees C. For the latter, we have idiot lights that move from two bars to four bars at 83 degrees.

    I have added a boost gauge. An EGT gauge would be nice PER CYLINDER.
    On a modern engine with a half way competent ECU an EGT gauge would maybe allow you to monitor that the ECU does its job rather than give you valuable information.
    Get a ODB dongle and plug it in, get the app and monitor the EGT on your phone. Enjoy.

    But if the ECU would allow the exhaust temperature to go too high, it would mean too much NOx emissions and these days manufacturers are kinda worried about those.
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    Default Re: Questionable engine designs

    Quote Originally Posted by mullerza View Post
    Just because its not displayed on the dash does not mean there isn't a sensor for it. For instance my Audi monitors both EGT and turbo impeller speeds, its not displayed on the dash but if those values move out of preset parameter the car will go into limp mode to protect against further damage. Recently had an issue where my audit would go into limp mode, quick check of the faults showed there was a difference between requested and delivered boost even though the car still had plenty of grunt - turned out to be a split in a boost pipe. In a old school car I would have carried on driving not noticing the slight drop in performance in normal driving until that pipe burst leaving me stranded.

    Having an EGT gauge on a dash where 99% of drivers dont even know where the temp gauge is, is pointless. I realise most readers here are not in that 99%, but BMW, Toyota, audi etc etc are not building cars for us they are built for the masses. TPMS on the audi has saved me quite a few times, but critically the system does not rely on old school sensors in the rims - it monitors individual tyre rotation speeds so can pick up when a tyre goes flat.

    Often when you hear about these "sudden" roadside failures and get the full story there was a sequence of events warning the driver of impending doom - usually a loss of power but the driver carried on.

    Manufacturers are not forcing the market to buy more complex cars, the market demands it. Despite this massive increase in complexity modern cars are fundamentally more reliable than older cars. Yes sometimes a simple dud sensor can bring a working car to a halt, but on the flip side with the right tools you can zero in on the fault very quickly.
    Was not saying that the fancy stuff must go, but that a secondary system would or at least could avoid breakdowns. My experiences - i see myself as sympathetic mechanically but am not a mechanic:

    BM 325I was driving back from Tzaneen and a hose burst. No warning and gauge did not move for about 500 meters, i heard a slight noise at some point and slowed then stopped. When slowing almost to stop, saw steam out of front. Head was fubar. Needed a tow and vehicle was repaired in local town as it was just out of warranty. No limp mode. The mechie said that the sudden loss of liquid did not register on gauge? Car had had MPLAN and one extension and regularly serviced etc.

    BM 330I had 2 burst pipe - 1 and radiator leak - 1 and both times the gauge did not move until i heard SOME noise. In the radiator case, i was in a parking lot and saw some leak in the rear view mirror.Both in town environment. Car was high mileage but well serviced. Engine not damaged. A better audible and limp mode warning or water level gauge would have been better IMO. No audible or limp mode warning.

    Above did cost to fix. The system in the car monitoring and warning did not react quickly enough IMO. Both cars were top of the range at their purchase dates. Both did big mileage in the end. Still think the warnings were pathetic.

    Have a Madman EGT gauge in my 79 donkey and the temperatures are very sensitive. Never hit audible signal other than a test i did by lowering temp - to test.

    TPMS. BMX3, lost a tyre on way back from week away. Drove a dirt road al low speed - 30 kms/h - must have had puncture but the tyre did not register the wheel speed thing. Road smooth but we had had a puncture long before in another BM sedan and hence caution. The X3 was newish at the time. Drove 7 kms at low speed on dirt road - smooth dirt. Then 2 kms on potholed tar road at 80 kms/hr and heard a noise. Got out and one tyre casing had torn and RFT was fubar. At that stage the car handling was just showing a problem. Drove about 3 kms to a safer place and had a 2 hour wait for lowbed. I argued with BM about this. A service workshop manager did a test with my wife in the car. Pressure set and the gizmob activated. Then let down from 2,2 bar to 1,5 bar and it worked on 1 out of 3 times if i recall. Then did another tyre and it worked on 1 out of 2 times. Disappointed and i wrote to BM. l learnt that it is not as good as a direct TPMS system.

    BMW M3 driving to Tswane at about 140 and alarm sounded with the orange tyre symbol. Stopped from fast lane to left in about 300m. It went red after stopping. Tyre was hot but not excessive to the touch. Pressure was about 0.4 bar down, hot, so a bit more, due to heat. Drove about 4 kms v slowly and had tyre pumped up. Back to Joburg and did not need to pump again, checked 2x. When we repaired, the tyre was damaged on inside casing, and needed replacing. So the BM sensor system just not good enough. At 250 on an autobahn it would have been different i guess.

    There have been a few more that i cannot recall detail. Have also had some where the water temp thing worked, an older X3, the 330 as well and a 220d. So not all doom and gloom. But i still think that a driver based system would be good as well as the tech stuff. A lot of folk are enthusiast motorheads and i reiterate that a breakdown in a RSA situation is quite different than in Europe say. So i do not agree fully with u.

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    Default Re: Questionable engine designs

    Quote Originally Posted by HugoNotte View Post
    On a modern engine with a half way competent ECU an EGT gauge would maybe allow you to monitor that the ECU does its job rather than give you valuable information.
    Get a ODB dongle and plug it in, get the app and monitor the EGT on your phone. Enjoy.

    But if the ECU would allow the exhaust temperature to go too high, it would mean too much NOx emissions and these days manufacturers are kinda worried about those.
    Yes, I have an OBDBII sender and app on my tablet, but I don't always carry my tablet with me nor display all of the time. I haven't found a code that works to read EGT directly. In fact a lot of supposedly standard codes don't work with this 2015 ECU.

    I've managed to lower by NOx outside of my ECU.
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  5. #45
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    Default Re: Questionable engine designs

    Very few ECU's read EGT. Few vehicles have OEM EGT probes.

    EGT is not an OEM concern as most ECU's read Air Fuel Ratios and set AFR within levels that does not create EGT to be concerned of.

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    Default Re: Questionable engine designs

    Het vrydag n termostaat gehad wat vas haak, en toe n waterhose wat bars. Direk na hose wat bars, n ligte heat seize.

    Die temp gauge het natuurlik niks gewys, maar veel meer worrying, die egt het ook niks abnormaal gewys nie.

    Nou maar water level detectors en nog heat gauges in sit.
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    Default Re: Questionable engine designs

    Quote Originally Posted by ed rouillard View Post
    Was not saying that the fancy stuff must go, but that a secondary system would or at least could avoid breakdowns. My experiences - i see myself as sympathetic mechanically but am not a mechanic:

    BM 325I was driving back from Tzaneen and a hose burst. No warning and gauge did not move for about 500 meters, i heard a slight noise at some point and slowed then stopped. When slowing almost to stop, saw steam out of front. Head was fubar. Needed a tow and vehicle was repaired in local town as it was just out of warranty. No limp mode. The mechie said that the sudden loss of liquid did not register on gauge? Car had had MPLAN and one extension and regularly serviced etc.

    BM 330I had 2 burst pipe - 1 and radiator leak - 1 and both times the gauge did not move until i heard SOME noise. In the radiator case, i was in a parking lot and saw some leak in the rear view mirror.Both in town environment. Car was high mileage but well serviced. Engine not damaged. A better audible and limp mode warning or water level gauge would have been better IMO. No audible or limp mode warning.

    Above did cost to fix. The system in the car monitoring and warning did not react quickly enough IMO. Both cars were top of the range at their purchase dates. Both did big mileage in the end. Still think the warnings were pathetic.

    Have a Madman EGT gauge in my 79 donkey and the temperatures are very sensitive. Never hit audible signal other than a test i did by lowering temp - to test.

    TPMS. BMX3, lost a tyre on way back from week away. Drove a dirt road al low speed - 30 kms/h - must have had puncture but the tyre did not register the wheel speed thing. Road smooth but we had had a puncture long before in another BM sedan and hence caution. The X3 was newish at the time. Drove 7 kms at low speed on dirt road - smooth dirt. Then 2 kms on potholed tar road at 80 kms/hr and heard a noise. Got out and one tyre casing had torn and RFT was fubar. At that stage the car handling was just showing a problem. Drove about 3 kms to a safer place and had a 2 hour wait for lowbed. I argued with BM about this. A service workshop manager did a test with my wife in the car. Pressure set and the gizmob activated. Then let down from 2,2 bar to 1,5 bar and it worked on 1 out of 3 times if i recall. Then did another tyre and it worked on 1 out of 2 times. Disappointed and i wrote to BM. l learnt that it is not as good as a direct TPMS system.

    BMW M3 driving to Tswane at about 140 and alarm sounded with the orange tyre symbol. Stopped from fast lane to left in about 300m. It went red after stopping. Tyre was hot but not excessive to the touch. Pressure was about 0.4 bar down, hot, so a bit more, due to heat. Drove about 4 kms v slowly and had tyre pumped up. Back to Joburg and did not need to pump again, checked 2x. When we repaired, the tyre was damaged on inside casing, and needed replacing. So the BM sensor system just not good enough. At 250 on an autobahn it would have been different i guess.

    There have been a few more that i cannot recall detail. Have also had some where the water temp thing worked, an older X3, the 330 as well and a 220d. So not all doom and gloom. But i still think that a driver based system would be good as well as the tech stuff. A lot of folk are enthusiast motorheads and i reiterate that a breakdown in a RSA situation is quite different than in Europe say. So i do not agree fully with u.
    I have no idea what point you’re trying to make. You seem to want a more manual monitoring system. However in every one of your cases mentioned above the sensors failed to detect or could not possibly have detected the mechanical failure. How on earth would a “manual gauge” have helped?

    The coolant temperature gauge measures, strangely enough coolant temperature. If there is no coolant, because the hose burst, the coolant temperature won’t rise because it’s running down the road. You also seem to be particularly tough on hoses/had very bad luck in this regard. More typically the designers feel it unnecessary to add the cost of a pressure transducer in the coolant circuit to check there is coolant in the circuit.

    Basically you need to do what Reenen is doing and add far more sensors to detect failures. You then need to learn what the acceptable performance parameters are and continuously scan these gauges while paying attention to your surroundings and chatting to the SO.

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    Default Re: Questionable engine designs

    Hi Bruce, You make my point I think. The thread is about questionable engine designs and I was commenting about a facet of this subject matter. I replied towards comment in a post as well.

    I am interested in motoring and enjoy driving. I do some maintenance on my overlanding vehicles. Many friends and acquaintances drive German luxury vehicles and also LR and Mitchubishi products - and more - and informally u hear and read about issues they experience with their vehicles, both in and out of service plan and warranty. I was friendly with a BM DP some years ago and discussions in this line were interesting.

    The incidences of issues with coolant systems in vehicles in and out of plan were alarming. If you follow this forum you anecdotally get the feeling that the engine head problems are very common across brands, mostly linked to coolant loss, and the subsequent pain suffered is lousy - but I think often avoidable IMO. Exactly as you say, hose bursts in the pressure system, no limp mode nor warning and bang - head or engine gone and pain starts! Coolant level gauges are simple - sort of - to fit and a temp and level gauge should be fitted, not just temperature. Designers did not seemingly concern themselves with the problem at design stage. Design for the masses was mentioned. Let the masses blow up their motors in and out of plan. Who cares!

    I make the point that the tyre monitoring systems are also woeful. I have heard many many stories about this. The designers have also let us down here IMO. Hundreds of other systems and technology but tyres in a country or continent with stuffed roads not perceived as a problem needing more attention? How many stories have we heard about this and resulting breakdown. Some stories have tragic outcomes. The LCCSA, BM and this forum are full of this as well. Almost continuously. RFT tyres are a whole subject matter as well.

    Breakdowns in Africa, particularly RSA wrt safety and felony, are hectic. Some terrible stories. Many good as well though.

    Just my thoughts. It would not be practical for millions of motorists to have to augment the technology provided by core manufacturers by fitting a bunch - few? of simpler and equally basic and audible devices/gauges and avoid the sort of issues experienced by a significant number of motorists. The systems even in costly upmarket vehicles do not provide enough fallback. Imagine a gauge or light and siren sounding if coolant gets low - and hot - say. My point.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Questionable engine designs

    Coolant level warning systems is a moot point. It is the simplest of systems to fit yet so many manufacturers shun it. And then some of the most basic cars have had it for years.

    I'll never forget, my dad used to own a number of Nissan Skylines in years gone by. One morning, in the early eighties, he went out to get the car from the garage. A moment later he got back in the house with the car's manual in hand. He said there is a funny light showing on the dashboard and he doesn't know what it is for. Turned out to be the coolant level warning light. Upon closer inspection, a heater hose was found to have chafed through by rubbing on the accelerator cable. Simple warning, disaster averted!

    Same with VW. They have had coolant level senders since for ever! Maybe because there is no such thing as a VW without a coolant leak!

    Why not ALL manufacturers do this I would like to know.

    Similarly, some years ago on my one LC 4.5 I had a low oil level warning light with a buzzer come on. It was just after a major service and the engine didn't use oil. I didn't even know it had a low oil level warning system. Anyway, turned out the crank pully had cracked and destroyed the crank seal. Oil was pouring out. Again disaster averted. Spoiled my holiday but actually lead to a very good experience with Loerie Toyota in George. Again a simple system which saved a very expensive potential repair.

    So some very basic warning systems can prevent costly and sometimes (in the SA context) life threatening break downs. Why it is not standard on all vehicles is beyond me.
    There is never a right time to do the wrong thing and never a wrong time to do the right thing!

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    Default Re: Questionable engine designs

    Quote Originally Posted by Francois Theron View Post
    Coolant level warning systems is a moot point. It is the simplest of systems to fit yet so many manufacturers shun it. And then some of the most basic cars have had it for years.

    I'll never forget, my dad used to own a number of Nissan Skylines in years gone by. One morning, in the early eighties, he went out to get the car from the garage. A moment later he got back in the house with the car's manual in hand. He said there is a funny light showing on the dashboard and he doesn't know what it is for. Turned out to be the coolant level warning light. Upon closer inspection, a heater hose was found to have chafed through by rubbing on the accelerator cable. Simple warning, disaster averted!

    Same with VW. They have had coolant level senders since for ever! Maybe because there is no such thing as a VW without a coolant leak!

    Why not ALL manufacturers do this I would like to know.

    Similarly, some years ago on my one LC 4.5 I had a low oil level warning light with a buzzer come on. It was just after a major service and the engine didn't use oil. I didn't even know it had a low oil level warning system. Anyway, turned out the crank pully had cracked and destroyed the crank seal. Oil was pouring out. Again disaster averted. Spoiled my holiday but actually lead to a very good experience with Loerie Toyota in George. Again a simple system which saved a very expensive potential repair.

    So some very basic warning systems can prevent costly and sometimes (in the SA context) life threatening break downs. Why it is not standard on all vehicles is beyond me.
    Off topic. Voor ek karring, weet oom hoe die low coolant drade in vw expansion tenk werk?
    Is dit weerstand wat verhoog/verlaag as coolant sak?
    Is dit n float?
    Is dit n “switch” wat n circuit sny of aan sit met level versndering, en ek kan net n lig/buzzer/relay koppel?
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    Default Re: Questionable engine designs

    Quote Originally Posted by Reenen View Post
    Off topic. Voor ek karring, weet oom hoe die low coolant drade in vw expansion tenk werk?
    Is dit weerstand wat verhoog/verlaag as coolant sak?
    Is dit n float?
    Is dit n “switch” wat n circuit sny of aan sit met level versndering, en ek kan net n lig/buzzer/relay koppel?
    Reenen dis net 'n "switch" in die sin dat dit twee probes is wat onderaan die sender sit. Sodra hulle uit die water is, skakel die circuit. Hoe presies die circuit lyk weet ek nie, nog nooit daarna gekyk nie. My elektriese kennis is x rated! Ek vermoed dis 'n "normally closed" circuit wat 'n relay trigger as hy gebreek word.
    There is never a right time to do the wrong thing and never a wrong time to do the right thing!

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    Default Re: Questionable engine designs

    Quote Originally Posted by Reenen View Post
    Off topic. Voor ek karring, weet oom hoe die low coolant drade in vw expansion tenk werk?
    Is dit weerstand wat verhoog/verlaag as coolant sak?
    Is dit n float?
    Is dit n “switch” wat n circuit sny of aan sit met level versndering, en ek kan net n lig/buzzer/relay koppel?
    https://www.4x4community.co.za/forum...l-Sensor-Alarm

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    Default Re: Questionable engine designs

    Dankie.
    Ek het klaar die ronde vw bottel met ingeboude level detector in, want die bmw radiator het nie n prop nie. En ek weet sy level sak darem wel as kar water verloor.

    Nou net kyk hoe om drade op te koppel om liggie/buzzer aan te sit.
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    Default Re: Questionable engine designs

    Quote Originally Posted by grips View Post
    Very few ECU's read EGT. Few vehicles have OEM EGT probes.

    EGT is not an OEM concern as most ECU's read Air Fuel Ratios and set AFR within levels that does not create EGT to be concerned of.
    OBDII Parameter / Process (PIDs) 78 and 79 make provision for reading EGT banks 1 and 2 respectively, but I'll take your word for it that most OEMs don't cater for it as mine didn't.

    I do have calculated load, rpm and MAF air flow rate.

    Funny that it tries to give a throttle position, which is all over the place. It doesn't correspond to the drive-by-wire accelerator position.

    What I miss in this vehicle are short and long term fuel trims, turbocharger compressor inlet pressure, variable geometry turbo control and I'd be curious to see commanded EGR, NOx NTE, PM NTE. However, many PIDs are just not supported in this vehicle.
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    Default Re: Questionable engine designs

    Quote Originally Posted by ed rouillard View Post
    Was not saying that the fancy stuff must go, but that a secondary system would or at least could avoid breakdowns. My experiences - i see myself as sympathetic mechanically but am not a mechanic:

    BM 325I was driving back from Tzaneen and a hose burst. No warning and gauge did not move for about 500 meters, i heard a slight noise at some point and slowed then stopped. When slowing almost to stop, saw steam out of front. Head was fubar. Needed a tow and vehicle was repaired in local town as it was just out of warranty. No limp mode. The mechie said that the sudden loss of liquid did not register on gauge? Car had had MPLAN and one extension and regularly serviced etc.

    BM 330I had 2 burst pipe - 1 and radiator leak - 1 and both times the gauge did not move until i heard SOME noise. In the radiator case, i was in a parking lot and saw some leak in the rear view mirror.Both in town environment. Car was high mileage but well serviced. Engine not damaged. A better audible and limp mode warning or water level gauge would have been better IMO. No audible or limp mode warning.

    Above did cost to fix. The system in the car monitoring and warning did not react quickly enough IMO. Both cars were top of the range at their purchase dates. Both did big mileage in the end. Still think the warnings were pathetic.

    Have a Madman EGT gauge in my 79 donkey and the temperatures are very sensitive. Never hit audible signal other than a test i did by lowering temp - to test.

    TPMS. BMX3, lost a tyre on way back from week away. Drove a dirt road al low speed - 30 kms/h - must have had puncture but the tyre did not register the wheel speed thing. Road smooth but we had had a puncture long before in another BM sedan and hence caution. The X3 was newish at the time. Drove 7 kms at low speed on dirt road - smooth dirt. Then 2 kms on potholed tar road at 80 kms/hr and heard a noise. Got out and one tyre casing had torn and RFT was fubar. At that stage the car handling was just showing a problem. Drove about 3 kms to a safer place and had a 2 hour wait for lowbed. I argued with BM about this. A service workshop manager did a test with my wife in the car. Pressure set and the gizmob activated. Then let down from 2,2 bar to 1,5 bar and it worked on 1 out of 3 times if i recall. Then did another tyre and it worked on 1 out of 2 times. Disappointed and i wrote to BM. l learnt that it is not as good as a direct TPMS system.

    BMW M3 driving to Tswane at about 140 and alarm sounded with the orange tyre symbol. Stopped from fast lane to left in about 300m. It went red after stopping. Tyre was hot but not excessive to the touch. Pressure was about 0.4 bar down, hot, so a bit more, due to heat. Drove about 4 kms v slowly and had tyre pumped up. Back to Joburg and did not need to pump again, checked 2x. When we repaired, the tyre was damaged on inside casing, and needed replacing. So the BM sensor system just not good enough. At 250 on an autobahn it would have been different i guess.

    There have been a few more that i cannot recall detail. Have also had some where the water temp thing worked, an older X3, the 330 as well and a 220d. So not all doom and gloom. But i still think that a driver based system would be good as well as the tech stuff. A lot of folk are enthusiast motorheads and i reiterate that a breakdown in a RSA situation is quite different than in Europe say. So i do not agree fully with u.
    Maybe stop driving bmw’s

    My audi has a tpm system that works very well with no false alarms
    It has a coolant level sensor so will warn me of a burst pipe
    It has an oil level sensor that warns me if the oil level dips
    Same goes for swambo’s Tiguan l

    Seems the issue isn’t modern cars, just the ones you bought (very much TIC)
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    Default Re: Questionable engine designs

    My RRC,D3 and FFRR all had low coolant level monitors.On the RRC it twice saved expensive repairs and once on my FFRR.

    I have a simple thermocouple bolted to the cylinder head of my Nissan,with a busser that will scream if the set temp is reached.Advantage is it warns if the head reaches a preset temp,unlike a sensor out of water not being able to warn you.Cheap .
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