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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    Quote Originally Posted by WAJ View Post
    Holes in pistons on the rangers, now the petrol cars destroys their pistons also?


    WTF does ford use for the pistons in their vehicles? marshmallows?



    I have never seen or heard of a petrol engine going bang with crappy petrol....



    Nee wat they have taken this built in obsolescence WAY WAY too far...
    Agree wholeheartedly. They make beautiful vehicles, but after all the events of late I would not touch a Ford with wooden pole.

    What a pot k&k!
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  3. #22
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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    Quote Originally Posted by johann21 View Post
    Could you perhaps elaborate on this a bit? Is there anything specific visible in the photos that are concerning?
    There seems to be a lot of deposits on them, Google what a healthy plug should look like.

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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    I have a feeling the car was a lemon straight out of the factory.

    Even if 93 was used once a blue moon, I doubt the engine will pack up. TWICE.
    Contaminated fuel? Is there no fuel filters in these cars?

    Rent a low bed and some banners.
    My ryding: 'n Ding met 4 rubber sirkels en n enjin wat nou en dan aangedryf word met al 4 sirkels

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  6. #24
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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    This is what a healthy plug on a new engine should look like.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    Those plugs and the manifold has a strange rust colour to it - I am no expert but that looks like the engine was running very lean, and a lean engine can konk out if run like that for a while.

    Me thinks their so called "fix" for the management system did this - it ran the mixture too lean to try and compensate for our supposedly crappy petrol. Strange that the fancy BMW M cars, and AMG Mercs runs fine on our fuels - but again, that's just my thoughts, I might be way off.
    Last edited by WAJ; 2021/05/10 at 11:22 AM.
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  8. #26
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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    Quote Originally Posted by johann21 View Post
    The fuel sample tested by Ford passed the "quality" tests. i.e. the fuel is up to local spec. Maybe I should insist they do further tests to determine if the fuel was contaminated, as they claim?
    I think at very least they should test for this as well yes so they can know for sure what they're dealing with. If it is dodgy fuel, then fine an you will have to foot the bill. But as has been pointed out above, it is doubtful if contaminated fuel would cause this much engine damage, especially in a petrol engine.

    In my layman's mind I sort of understand what pre ignition issues is and could cause - ignition happening too quickly and at the wrong area (direct vs indirect injection (pre combustion chambers etc) which could cause too warm temperature resulting in meltdown of components.

    But not contaminated fuel.

    Which I why I also advised sourcing an expert in these fields to break down and diagnose the issue.

    Your guys like:

    Grips
    Reenen
    Marius Fourie
    Hbannink
    etc

    I know there are many more, but these are the names that jumped to mind just know. Guys that knows engines like the back of their hands.

    Would really appreciate some comments from them.
    Last edited by Die SwartKat; 2021/05/10 at 11:29 AM.
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  9. #27
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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    Quote Originally Posted by WAJ View Post
    Those plugs and the manifold has a strange rust colour to it - I am no expert but that looks like the engine was running very lean, and a lean engine can konk out if run like that for a while.

    Me thinks their so called "fix" for the management system did this - it ran the mixture too lean to try and compensate for our supposedly crappy petrol. Strange that the fancy BMW M cars, and AMG Mercs runs fine on our fuels - but again, that's just my thoughts, I might be way off.
    This!!!!!
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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    Those red deposits could also be manganese deposits from octane boosters in unlead fuel

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  12. #29
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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    When pre-ignition happens, something ignites the Air/Fuel Mixture during the Compression Stroke. This creates too much pressure inside the cylinder, too soon. The piston is then forced to compress already heated, expanding gases. Pre-ignition will cause significant damage without warning. (braking pistons)


    How is it indicated?
    Instant engine failure
    A hole melted through the top of the piston
    Melted, splattered spark plugs


    What is Low-Speed Pre-Ignition?
    Scientists have recently discovered that engine knock has a mysterious evil twin. Itís called Low-Speed Pre-Ignition (LSPI), and itís serious and destructive. Even scarier? Experts like Scott Lindholm, the Global Product Application Specialist for Shell Lubricants, donít yet fully understand what causes it.
    ďKnock and LSPI are two distinct events, caused by two different phenomena,Ē Lindholm explains. ďTypical knock can be controlled by fuel octane and spark timing and is very predictable. LSPI is still not well understood and can occur very randomly.Ē
    Both LSPI and typical knock result when Petrol in the cylinders ignites at the wrong time though the conditions surrounding each phenomenon are different.
    Knock characteristically occurs at higher RPMs and under higher load when your engine is hot and stressed and working hard. But LSPI can happen at very low RPMs and under a lighter load. It also likes to happen in the sort of operating range where high fuel efficiency is obtained in modern engines. Unlike engine knock, LSPI is very unpredictable.
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  14. #30
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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    Quote Originally Posted by faniedup View Post
    Those red deposits could also be manganese deposits from octane boosters in unlead fuel
    Would these octane boosters therefore be common in local (SA) spec fuel?

    Also, we were told by the Ford technician that the new engine had to be run in, and that we should therefore drive the vehicle very carefully for a while, which is what we did.
    Maybe this caused the "extra" deposit buildup on the spark plugs?

  15. #31
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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    Quote Originally Posted by faniedup View Post
    This is what a healthy plug on a new engine should look like.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Spark plugs.jpg 
Views:	65 
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ID:	614956

    Maybe this is an oversimplification, but the reddish brown colour could be normal?

  16. #32
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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    Quote Originally Posted by WAJ View Post
    Those plugs and the manifold has a strange rust colour to it - I am no expert but that looks like the engine was running very lean, and a lean engine can konk out if run like that for a while.

    Me thinks their so called "fix" for the management system did this - it ran the mixture too lean to try and compensate for our supposedly crappy petrol. Strange that the fancy BMW M cars, and AMG Mercs runs fine on our fuels - but again, that's just my thoughts, I might be way off.
    advancement in fuel economy in modern engines are mainly from their ability to run leaner. Running an engine lean uses less fuel, but counter intuitively also can produce more power but with the risk of preignition as already explained elsewhere. These small modern turbo petrol engines run stupidly lean at part throttle with the management monitoring temperature, EGT and detonation to keep it just this side of safe. When you floor it they typically run richer to protect the engine - that is why these modern small capacity engine post great fuel economy numbers when driven like a granny but consume more fuel than a comparative non turbo engine when pushed hard.

    Ford's fix was most likely to enrich the mixture but maybe they did not compensate enough. I have been eyeing the ecoboost as a possible car for mini swambo in due course but reports like this is putting me off.
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  17. #33
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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    Quote Originally Posted by mullerza View Post
    advancement in fuel economy in modern engines are mainly from their ability to run leaner. Running an engine lean uses less fuel, but counter intuitively also can produce more power but with the risk of preignition as already explained elsewhere. These small modern turbo petrol engines run stupidly lean at part throttle with the management monitoring temperature, EGT and detonation to keep it just this side of safe. When you floor it they typically run richer to protect the engine - that is why these modern small capacity engine post great fuel economy numbers when driven like a granny but consume more fuel than a comparative non turbo engine when pushed hard.

    Ford's fix was most likely to enrich the mixture but maybe they did not compensate enough. I have been eyeing the ecoboost as a possible car for mini swambo in due course but reports like this is putting me off.
    So in other words what you are saying, is that lean mixtures in petrol engines runs hotter? As opposed to diesel engines that does the opposite?

    Learning a lot here today and I think this sounds very plausible.
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  18. #34
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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Die SwartKat View Post
    So in other words what you are saying, is that lean mixtures in petrol engines runs hotter? As opposed to diesel engines that does the opposite?

    Learning a lot here today and I think this sounds very plausible.
    Correct, over fueling cools a petrol engine down. Remember a diesel engine by nature runs very lean, so adding more fuel creates a bigger bang and more power and more heat because the oxygen to burn that fuel is already in the cylinder. A petrol engine runs closer to the theoretical ideal stoichiometric value of 14.7 - Typically around 13 for NA and mid 11's for a turbo engine - lower = richer and higher number = leaner (These are what I run on the race cars, road cars will be closer to the 14.7). Because you can never get a perfect burn those number are already pretty close to consuming all the oxygen in the cylinder, adding more fuel does not create a bigger bang, but that fuel evaporating does cool things down
    Last edited by mullerza; 2021/05/10 at 01:47 PM.
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  20. #35
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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    I think that vehicle had the incorrect ECU software loaded from day 1, and with the update, it was corrected to the updated version, but still linked to the wrong region.

    Most, if not all vehicle manufacturers have region codes, and the vehicles differ slightly depending on the market they are sold into.

    Extreme example is that the vehicle being sent to dubai (HOT) won't be the exact same spec as the one going to iceland (COLD).

    This could be a reason why this specific vehicle has issues, and why it is not generally the case of all the Ecoboost Ecosports running around.

    SA fuel is not up to spec to what can be found in Europe and other 1st world regions. One of the reason why Ford isn't launching another ST model in the Focus or Fiesta, because they cannot safely deliver a vehicle with the same level of performance in SA compared to its EU version. Won't look good selling a detuned performance version.

  21. #36
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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    I was looking to see if I could find similar problems in the UK and what the reasons and diagnosis could be and then stumbled upon Ford SA's Hellopeter page, my word

  22. #37
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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    A mate of mine has the same vehicle, his first engine got replaced by Ford on about 25 000 km's, then literally a week before his warranty expired that engine went - just under 50 000 km's, also piston, and he got a second engine.

    Seems like these engines has some problems if you ask me
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  24. #38
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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    The issues started showing up before the last fill up at the engen next to ford.You mention the car was empty.
    So it is very possible that you got water contaminated fuel somewhere before that.
    So if they drew a sample after the second failure ,which was after the engen fill up they would not have found the contamintaed fuel which had already passed through the motor.
    If you filling up at work are you sure they dip daily for water before and after receiving fuel..There has been a huge increase in water contamination over the last few months coming straight from the delivery trucks.
    The piston might have "broke" due to the water and poor firing

  25. #39
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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Die SwartKat View Post
    So in other words what you are saying, is that lean mixtures in petrol engines runs hotter? As opposed to diesel engines that does the opposite?

    Learning a lot here today and I think this sounds very plausible.
    Yes and no, the hottest an engine will run is at the stoichiometric ratio. On either side of this the engine will run cooler. I have watched real time AFR on a turbocharged VW engine and the management runs very lean ratios under low load cruising upwards of 1:28 under some conditions.

    What Anton described in terms of tuning is exactly what I aim for on the beetle. For high performance application I aim for 1:12.7-13.5 AFR from the main circuit of the carburettors at WOT under load whilst cruising in fourth gear under 2500RPM i.e. the idle circuit you save a lot of fuel if you can tune it to run at 1:18 or even 1:20 AFR (Not always practically possible using traditional distributor ignition hence why I am happy if the idle circuit runs at 1:16 as I want performance more than fuel economy in this vehicle, you will see why I say this below) . What I absolutely don't want is to run a 1:14.7 AFR.

    Running lean however means you have to keep an eye on timing advance as pre-ignition kills an engine in no time, think of it as hitting the top of the piston with a hammer every time it happens. Sooner or later something is going to break like piston skirts and/ or rings. In modern engines there is a knock sensor that will retard ignition timing when pre-ignition occurs, however this is a reactive device i.e. the engine has to experience pre-ignition knock for the ECU to know it must retard timing, so if the ignition map in your vehicle is too aggressive for the fuel you are able to get then a cycle of pre-ignition knock followed by a retardation of timing followed by an advance of timing followed by a knock followed by a retardation of timing starts. Repeat this cycle hundreds if not thousands of times and ultimately damage will occur.

    In simple terms there are three ways to address the above. Firstly you can limit the amount of total ignition timing advance, secondly you can enrich the air fuel mixture and thirdly you can boost the octane level of the fuel you use.
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  27. #40
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    Default Re: Ford very finnicky over petrol - 2nd engine replacement imminent.

    Quote Originally Posted by franshorn View Post
    SA fuel is not up to spec to what can be found in Europe and other 1st world regions. One of the reason why Ford isn't launching another ST model in the Focus or Fiesta, because they cannot safely deliver a vehicle with the same level of performance in SA compared to its EU version. Won't look good selling a detuned performance version.
    And yet Porsche can sell a pukka 911 Turbo S here in this old SA with its substandard fuel?

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