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  1. #1
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    Default Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    Effectively, those with solar systems will be feeding additional power back at 58.46c but paying R1.46 per kWh at night when they need power from the grid.

    https://www.moneyweb.co.za/news/south-africa/how-much-eskom-wants-to-charge-normal-households-and-those-with-solar/

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    Default Re: Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    Some other observations from the article

    The utility also says the tariff “cannot be offered to customers who are on a prepaid smart meter due to current technological constraints”.)

    Winter peak time tariff R3.57

    My take is to go prepaid

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    Default Re: Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    So basically the customer is screwed. You pay for solar to cut your costs, escom mismanagement now wants to steal from you by claiming the sun belongs to them ie renting sunlight. Hahaha, bloody joke
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    Default Re: Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    Well it's better than nothing. If you're generating free power and you can sell it back to eskom, why complain about it? Of course you won't get the same rate as when you buy from eskom, they still have infrastructure and overhead costs to carry. I see it as a win. Not only is your power free, but you get paid for the excess.
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    Default Re: Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    Quote Originally Posted by hunter26 View Post
    So basically the customer is screwed. You pay for solar to cut your costs, escom mismanagement now wants to steal from you by claiming the sun belongs to them ie renting sunlight. Hahaha, bloody joke

    Or you could look at it this way, you use their grid network as a battery. The network costs money to build and keep up, if you use it, pay for it. Else buy a battery to dump your excess into for night time use. Make your sums and use the most cost efficient method to store your energy, grid or battery.

    The amount of solar fed back into the grid in parts of Australia is now making their grid unstable, they are bringing regulations in to have control over the inverters in order to keep the grid from falling apart every time a cloud covers the the sun, or pop out from under the sun.

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    Default Re: Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    Interesting in who reads what into the article.

    Us being grid tied having registered for free and having a PAYG meter installed by CoCT for free because we are not feeding anything back and having to pay a fixed monthly fee already and knowing that we are using Eskom for peak loads and knowing how CoCT has structured the PV feedback if you do, this is the core of that article I'm reading, seeing as this is EXACTLY what is happening with us:

    Eskom identified the need for a residential time-of-use tariff to provide the right economic signals that promote economic efficiency and sustainability for Eskom and the customer long ago.

    The proposed tariff will also help to optmise the system and “protect future revenue”.

    There is a need to get fair compensation for the use of the grid and to incentivise customers to stay connected to the grid but that the “current IBT structure does not provide a TOU signal or a signal for net billing; PV [solar photovoltaic], for example, reduces sales, but not peak consumption and peak demand.
    Last edited by the_terrible_triplett; 2021/03/31 at 09:17 AM.
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    Default Re: Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post
    Interesting in who reads what into the article.
    It is interesting..

    I get that there is no incentive to go grid tied, because I will effectively be off-grid in the day time due to the panels, and when I "need" the grid, I will be hammered on price, so it would be better for my pocket to calculate what I use during peak times and offset that amount against batteries and back-up which will serve as a supply during the inevitable load shedding we will have anyway.
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    Default Re: Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    I have not read this in detail, but perhaps some lightbulb at eskom has figured that they can stabilise their grid with a lot of excess power produced during the day, when businesses need the power to operate. I am producing a lot of excess and I would be happy to get paid for it, even eat a lower rate, and I would be happy if it keeps some of my potential customers in business or in the country as they try hard to make their businesses survive.

    Then at night, my loads are very low, and if they get silly I can always use the gas break fire for cooking.

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    Default Re: Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnoK View Post
    It is interesting..

    I get that there is no incentive to go grid tied, because I will effectively be off-grid in the day time due to the panels, and when I "need" the grid, I will be hammered on price, so it would be better for my pocket to calculate what I use during peak times and offset that amount against batteries and back-up which will serve as a supply during the inevitable load shedding we will have anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by stephenplumb View Post
    I have not read this in detail, but perhaps some lightbulb at eskom has figured that they can stabilise their grid with a lot of excess power produced during the day, when businesses need the power to operate. I am producing a lot of excess and I would be happy to get paid for it, even eat a lower rate, and I would be happy if it keeps some of my potential customers in business or in the country as they try hard to make their businesses survive.

    Then at night, my loads are very low, and if they get silly I can always use the gas break fire for cooking.
    Merits in both points of view. The issue with solar power is the Duck Curve AND when say Eskom is happily drawing from 1000's of homes and then clouds move over the area ... that would be drama.

    And getting batts to offset higher Eskom kw/h charge, I THINK lithium's are at +-R2.50 per kw/h if you shop right and they last their advertised cycles, but it is a huge upfront cost and should be done with cash, or else the +-R2.50 becomes higher.
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    Default Re: Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post
    Merits in both points of view. The issue with solar power is the Duck Curve AND when say Eskom is happily drawing from 1000's of homes and then clouds move over the area ... that would be drama.

    And getting batts to offset higher Eskom kw/h charge, I THINK lithium's are at +-R2.50 per kw/h if you shop right and they last their advertised cycles, but it is a huge upfront cost and should be done with cash, or else the +-R2.50 becomes higher.
    I was chatting to the fellow that runs the mauritius grid and he said this was a huge issue for them as the generation falls off a cliff in a matter of seconds. Then another friend of mine in Texas was proudly telling me how they are generating so much wind and solar and that the geographic distribution takes care of the peaks and troughs. (This was before the recent winterising issues they had.)

    So for example if the WC has a cold front, it should be relatively predictable and will not affect generation inland, and visa versa, but he eskom met office may have to bone up a bit on predicting clouds and such? The bottom line is geographic spread will help a lot.

    The power stations like to run and run at 100% capacity, so keeping spinning reserve is not really good business for eskom, but I don't think this is an issue as they can sell everything they produce, they just cant produce enough. It is amazing how much power is down given the delta between installed capacity and peak demand.

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    Default Re: Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post
    And getting batts to offset higher Eskom kw/h charge, I THINK lithium's are at +-R2.50 per kw/h if you shop right and they last their advertised cycles, but it is a huge upfront cost and should be done with cash, or else the +-R2.50 becomes higher.
    At that price, buy shedloads of batteries, charge them on PV and then push back onto the grid during winter peak time @ over R3/ kwh. Profit!

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    Default Re: Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    Quote Originally Posted by cainslie View Post
    At that price, buy shedloads of batteries, charge them on PV and then push back onto the grid during winter peak time @ over R3/ kwh. Profit!
    YES, till you get to the T&C's of feeding back to the grid ...

    If CoCT can:
    1) Get the constitution changed that they can buy power from me.
    2) They pay for the installation and the cost of the bi-directional meter - which they then own.
    3) Keep my existing monthly connection and not charge me per day for feeding back - being I think R150 ex VAT.
    4) Pay me ex-VAT what they pay Eskom per kw/h - was R0.76c per kw/h.
    THEN I will happily upgrade and feed not only solar power, but also any stored battery power back to them whilst I'm happily avoiding all LS events to boot.

    They want to sell electricity to others, electricity I can produce some of, then the cost of ensuring their infrastructure works, is on them, not on me.

    But to date the "deck" is stacked against me doing that.
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    Default Re: Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    Quote Originally Posted by stephenplumb View Post
    I was chatting to the fellow that runs the mauritius grid and he said this was a huge issue for them as the generation falls off a cliff in a matter of seconds. Then another friend of mine in Texas was proudly telling me how they are generating so much wind and solar and that the geographic distribution takes care of the peaks and troughs. (This was before the recent winterising issues they had.)

    So for example if the WC has a cold front, it should be relatively predictable and will not affect generation inland, and visa versa, but he eskom met office may have to bone up a bit on predicting clouds and such? The bottom line is geographic spread will help a lot.

    The power stations like to run and run at 100% capacity, so keeping spinning reserve is not really good business for eskom, but I don't think this is an issue as they can sell everything they produce, they just cant produce enough. It is amazing how much power is down given the delta between installed capacity and peak demand.
    All of that is true ... the MAJOR problem all grids have, is the Duck Curve ... for as you say, weather has a HUGE impact like generation "dropping off a cliff" when weather moves in, the problem being, solar can be back in a second if the clouds move on, or intermittend clouds, whereas the power stations cannot get even CLOSE to handling that ever.

    So it gets VERY technical.

    To solve all of that into the future, one needs Micro grids, grids that can act fast with changing events per area, and not rely on huge big power stations and one big grid.
    That needs a whole new decentralized system, and no-one has the funds for that, not even Texas.
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    Default Re: Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    We need to understand that it cost money to keep the grid network going. If you want to be payed per kwh what you pay for it Eskom, then you need to contribute to the costs of maintaning the network. Over panel your system to substitute what you use at night, if you work smart you won't use much and you can actually break even or do better, its still gonna costs less than buying batteries.
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    Default Re: Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    Quote Originally Posted by retailer View Post
    We need to understand that it cost money to keep the grid network going. If you want to be payed per kwh what you pay for it Eskom, then you need to contribute to the costs of maintaning the network. Over panel your system to substitute what you use at night, if you work smart you won't use much and you can actually break even or do better, its still gonna costs less than buying batteries.
    All spot on ...

    But what I realised the one day, in any business each profit center is responsible for their costs to generate said profits, mine would be for the system, panels, batteries on "my property".
    CoCT who also wants to make a "profit", give free electricity to the needy, their "costs center" starts at the transformer in the street, one that we all share and pay for to be kept on par.

    For as far as I know, Eskom is not paying CoCT to distribute their electricity, that cost is for CoCT, who buys at say +-R0.76 + VAT per kw/h and sells to me at +-R2.30 AND I already pay a connection fee just to be connected to CoCT's grid, even if I don't use any electricity.
    Last edited by the_terrible_triplett; 2021/04/01 at 11:25 AM.
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    Default Re: Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    One of the problems with these issues is that people think they are islands and exist for themselves.

    The examples and reasoning offered are fine and relevant for one home, or a few homes.

    The problem comes when the same arguments or reasoning are put forward when we explode the numbers.

    A big problem is seated in the way they bill us.
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  27. #17
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    Default Re: Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Dold View Post
    Effectively, those with solar systems will be feeding additional power back at 58.46c but paying R1.46 per kWh at night when they need power from the grid.

    https://www.moneyweb.co.za/news/south-africa/how-much-eskom-wants-to-charge-normal-households-and-those-with-solar/
    The "time of use" versus "time of generation" argument is valid so one can reasonably expect a different tariff for day versus night consumption. But the real problem is that electricity (and water) are now seen to be essential tools for revenue collection. Tariffs then become a moving target - invest in solar and expect to be clobbered with fixed connection fees - invest in batteries and expect to have a "storage tax" down the line - invest in property and expect ever increasing punitive rates - etc. Municipalities including CoCT look for investors but do everything they can to discourage investment!

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  29. #18
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    Default Re: Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post
    All spot on ...

    But what I realised the one day, in any business each profit center is responsible for their costs to generate said profits, mine would be for the system, panels, batteries on "my property".
    CoCT who also wants to make a "profit", give free electricity to the needy, their "costs center" starts at the transformer in the street, one that we all share and pay for to be kept on par.

    For as far as I know, Eskom is not paying CoCT to distribute their electricity, that cost is for CoCT, who buys at say +-R0.76 + VAT per kw/h and sells to me at +-R2.30 AND I already pay a connection fee just to be connected to CoCT's grid, even if I don't use any electricity.
    Some time ago I tried to illustrate this with the attached diagram. CoCT responded in a huff with the claim:
    "TheEskom tariff to municipalities is approved by NERSA and it representsabout 70% of the cost charged to all customers."
    I asked for figures to enable me to do some fact checking but was met with its usual silence.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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  31. #19
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    Default Re: Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Marshall View Post
    Municipalities including CoCT look for investors but do everything they can to discourage investment!
    My view is that CoCT is not run by the ANC and therefor has clean audits.

    I've read over the years that CoCT realises that in order to secure more investment into the W/Cape, they need a stable electricity supply and water. They WANT more investments from everywhere, it leads towards a better run and "richer" province in the end.

    So the fact that CoCT Munic focusses on income that they can get to in order to be able to supply others for free ito water and electricity, goes a long way towards general calmer populace which in turn allows for more investments from bigger entities into the W/Cape.

    This view excludes toilets, as it is a k_k subject, ok!?

    Personally I don't care to pay a wee bit more so that other less fortunate locals can get some free water and electricity ... it could be me one day that needs that.

    And CoCT is more than a decade ahead of all this drama about solar and whatnot. In 2008 I became aware of them having plans ito solar and homes, as they are very aware of thousands of houses, and businesses, that could move off the grid if things don't come right.

    And just the other day I saw more local schools in our area with solar panels on their roofs. As a matter of fact, years ago I pitched and idea to supply panels to schools, as they are Gov owned buildings.

    CoCT has some clever ideas of where they want to go into the future.

    Like Fluffy said, this is NOT about me, myself and I. This is all about the BIG picture.
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  33. #20
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    Default Re: Eskom's new proposal for homes with solar panels

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Dold View Post
    Effectively, those with solar systems will be feeding additional power back at 58.46c but paying R1.46 per kWh at night when they need power from the grid.

    https://www.moneyweb.co.za/news/south-africa/how-much-eskom-wants-to-charge-normal-households-and-those-with-solar/
    I wouldn't mind this arrangement.
    Currently I cannot feed back into the grid at all, so when my batteries are full, for the rest of the day they solar power is wasted.
    even if I get back a little bit it will be better than nothing.
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