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  1. #1
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    Exclamation 2010 Defender 2.4 110 - Flat spot or intermittent power loss

    Hey guys,

    Seems like the gremlins keep coming, but trying to get on top of them all!

    Took the Landy (might affectionately call her Lemon at this point) out for a spin this morning. She started a bit rough, and struggled to maintain revs (never stalling, but making gear changes more tender on takeup) - I kind've put that down to cold weather, hadn't taken her out this nippy before, so ignored it... All seemed okay, took some farm roads out Shongweni way, some steep decents and steep inclines to find your way back.

    After getting back on the main road to find a more challenging drive, I noticed she was a bit flat, like almost zero response to the accelerator. Pulled over as I was now affecting traffic to the farmers market. Sat for a bit until traffic cleared, without switching off, pulled away, and was absolutely fine.

    I thought okay now I need to try reproduce the issue. Went further down, all the way into the valley to go up the other side. No issues down, and seemingly no issues up, but then hit another flat spot, thought I'd selected too high a gear, popped into 2nd, still flat, then all of a sudden it starting working like normal. To explain the feeling, it's almost like someone cuts the accelerator cable off completely, and she only high idles, then comes back like enormous boost lag.

    Before I went any further, turned around so as to make my way back, knowing the descent would be fine, because no power needed, but started to sweat at the thought of the climb again. High EGTs or coolant temp starting running through my mind (she had overheated a lot last year when I first got her, leading to a cylinder head gasket replacement, water pump, heater control valve, expansion tank and cap etc etc).

    When I got to the climb I thought let me try keep some momentum, and push her a bit, almost trying to make her fail - and she worked, brilliantly - until I had to slow down for a corner, where the flat spot reappeared, only to disappear again after the longest second of this morning, and she shooted off, up to 3rd, 2500 revs, pulling up the hill, like, "where's the problem?"

    After researching - a lot of guys had issues with VCV, MAP, MAF, and the notorious EGR (she chugger chugger chugger's on shut down still).

    With MAP and MAF being the simplest to sort at home - in terms of inspection and potentially cleaning, I opened them up.

    The MAP was filthy, lots of deposits on it, and could see all the gunk still inside the throttle body.

    The MAF wasn't as bad, but something told me to look at the air filter, which seems fine, but the intake pipe to the turbo is full of carbon deposits and gunk. Worried about what this is doing to the turbo!

    I can only imagine the system is getting ruined by the EGR, it must go ASAP! After that I'd want to install a catch can - my Defender 2.8i PCV valve was completely stuffed, and lots of gunk was finding its way into the intake, so I installed a catch can to try save her a bit. The benefit was a much smoother running Yolandi!

    After spraying liberal amounts of electrical contact cleaner on the sensors, and then allowing them to dry, I started her back up again, and she seemed, for the most part, smoother on idle, and when pushing pedal.

    Talking about the pedal - she doesn't seem to have any response with about half an inch of throttle applied, is that normal?

    I'm going to take her for a spin later, to try find some carbon cleaner for the rest of the throttle body (as I feel this will just happen again and again until the EGR is removed), and test her out properly.

    Anyone experience the same? My planned maintenance/repair list is as follows.

    Remove/Disable EGR
    Clean/Flush intercooler and all intake pipes, including PCV pipe.
    Install catchcan
    De-cat (always wanted to do this, but think stopping any wear and tear - turbowise heatwise - is a good thing)

    TIA!
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    Last edited by scottdurban; 2021/04/03 at 12:40 PM. Reason: Adding Pics
    2010 Land Rover Defender 110
    2018 Mazda CX-5 (SWAMBO)
    2015 VW Caddy Cross (Sold)
    1998 Land Rover Defender 2.8i (2.5i replacement due to overheat ) (Sold - twins on the way, needed 4 doors...)
    2009 Suzuki Jimny, Raised, Snorkel, BFG AT's, Little Engine that could (Sold)

  2. #2
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    Default Re: 2010 Defender 2.4 110 - Flat spot or intermittent power loss

    Quote Originally Posted by scottdurban View Post
    Hey guys,

    Seems like the gremlins keep coming, but trying to get on top of them all!

    Took the Landy (might affectionately call her Lemon at this point) out for a spin this morning. She started a bit rough, and struggled to maintain revs (never stalling, but making gear changes more tender on takeup) - I kind've put that down to cold weather, hadn't taken her out this nippy before, so ignored it... All seemed okay, took some farm roads out Shongweni way, some steep decents and steep inclines to find your way back.

    After getting back on the main road to find a more challenging drive, I noticed she was a bit flat, like almost zero response to the accelerator. Pulled over as I was now affecting traffic to the farmers market. Sat for a bit until traffic cleared, without switching off, pulled away, and was absolutely fine.

    I thought okay now I need to try reproduce the issue. Went further down, all the way into the valley to go up the other side. No issues down, and seemingly no issues up, but then hit another flat spot, thought I'd selected too high a gear, popped into 2nd, still flat, then all of a sudden it starting working like normal. To explain the feeling, it's almost like someone cuts the accelerator cable off completely, and she only high idles, then comes back like enormous boost lag.

    Before I went any further, turned around so as to make my way back, knowing the descent would be fine, because no power needed, but started to sweat at the thought of the climb again. High EGTs or coolant temp starting running through my mind (she had overheated a lot last year when I first got her, leading to a cylinder head gasket replacement, water pump, heater control valve, expansion tank and cap etc etc).

    When I got to the climb I thought let me try keep some momentum, and push her a bit, almost trying to make her fail - and she worked, brilliantly - until I had to slow down for a corner, where the flat spot reappeared, only to disappear again after the longest second of this morning, and she shooted off, up to 3rd, 2500 revs, pulling up the hill, like, "where's the problem?"

    After researching - a lot of guys had issues with VCV, MAP, MAF, and the notorious EGR (she chugger chugger chugger's on shut down still).

    With MAP and MAF being the simplest to sort at home - in terms of inspection and potentially cleaning, I opened them up.

    The MAP was filthy, lots of deposits on it, and could see all the gunk still inside the throttle body.

    The MAF wasn't as bad, but something told me to look at the air filter, which seems fine, but the intake pipe to the turbo is full of carbon deposits and gunk. Worried about what this is doing to the turbo!

    I can only imagine the system is getting ruined by the EGR, it must go ASAP! After that I'd want to install a catch can - my Defender 2.8i PCV valve was completely stuffed, and lots of gunk was finding its way into the intake, so I installed a catch can to try save her a bit. The benefit was a much smoother running Yolandi!

    After spraying liberal amounts of electrical contact cleaner on the sensors, and then allowing them to dry, I started her back up again, and she seemed, for the most part, smoother on idle, and when pushing pedal.

    Talking about the pedal - she doesn't seem to have any response with about half an inch of throttle applied, is that normal?

    I'm going to take her for a spin later, to try find some carbon cleaner for the rest of the throttle body (as I feel this will just happen again and again until the EGR is removed), and test her out properly.

    Anyone experience the same? My planned maintenance/repair list is as follows.

    Remove/Disable EGR
    Clean/Flush intercooler and all intake pipes, including PCV pipe.
    Install catchcan
    De-cat (always wanted to do this, but think stopping any wear and tear - turbowise heatwise - is a good thing)

    TIA!
    Hi Scott, i think you spot on with your trouble shooting thus far, im leaning towards your VCV, but also check the wiring on the turbo actuator. Its a known issue, is was initially too short and shorted causing similar issues.
    Cheers
    Claude

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  4. #3
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    Question Re: 2010 Defender 2.4 110 - Flat spot or intermittent power loss

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaudeG View Post
    Hi Scott, i think you spot on with your trouble shooting thus far, im leaning towards your VCV, but also check the wiring on the turbo actuator. Its a known issue, is was initially too short and shorted causing similar issues.
    Cheers
    Claude
    Thanks Claude! I did check out the wiring harness on the turbo - failed to mention. Looks like this has already been updated, has a little slack on it.

    just an update after taking it for a spin, she idled a lot better, and gear changes were easier because she maintained revs better. Canít believe I completely forgot to mention, there was a leopard tree leaf inside the MAF! So I do think itís possible that itís a dirty intake system.

    do you know if I can just clean up the VCV?
    2010 Land Rover Defender 110
    2018 Mazda CX-5 (SWAMBO)
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    1998 Land Rover Defender 2.8i (2.5i replacement due to overheat ) (Sold - twins on the way, needed 4 doors...)
    2009 Suzuki Jimny, Raised, Snorkel, BFG AT's, Little Engine that could (Sold)

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    Default Re: 2010 Defender 2.4 110 - Flat spot or intermittent power loss

    Quote Originally Posted by scottdurban View Post
    Thanks Claude! I did check out the wiring harness on the turbo - failed to mention. Looks like this has already been updated, has a little slack on it.

    just an update after taking it for a spin, she idled a lot better, and gear changes were easier because she maintained revs better. Canít believe I completely forgot to mention, there was a leopard tree leaf inside the MAF! So I do think itís possible that itís a dirty intake system.

    do you know if I can just clean up the VCV?
    Scott, ive never heard of cleaning it. Its on the high pressure side of the pump so probably not a great idea opening it up. If you buy a new one from the UK direct it was cheaper than local LR, the last time i checked.

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    Default Re: 2010 Defender 2.4 110 - Flat sopt or intermittent power loss

    WRT the VCV, I have in the past removed the piston of the VCV and polished it, not sure if it helped with my problems but it can be done. Mine had a slight wear ridge which I polished.

    My problem turned out to be the actual actuator, just wasn't working properly and the system would over-boost and go into limp mode. Stupid thing is you cannot purchase an actuator alone, some nonsense story about flow benches, blah blah blah. Found a broken used turbo and used that actuator. BTW, its on the low pressure side of the pump.

    I eventually purchased a scanner, plugged it in and drove, all the while recording the data. Got home after a 20km drive and found all sorts of interesting data, in particular MAF readings and MAP readings. The MAP readings are a reflection of the turbo boost, at idle at sea level it reads 100, mine was jumping to 200 which caused over boost.

    Good luck
    2010 Defender Puma (Toolbox)
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  8. #6
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    Lightbulb Re: 2010 Defender 2.4 110 - Flat sopt or intermittent power loss

    Update guys.
    so there was definitely something up with the EGR. After having her software deleted, smoother gear changes, coasts better (used to almost stutter) low down power comes on sooner and she feels more confident in the higher Rev ranges. She also runs really cool. Used to notice the heat of cabin so much, now itís a lot better! Almost thinking a decat wonít be worth it?!
    2010 Land Rover Defender 110
    2018 Mazda CX-5 (SWAMBO)
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    1998 Land Rover Defender 2.8i (2.5i replacement due to overheat ) (Sold - twins on the way, needed 4 doors...)
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    Default Re: 2010 Defender 2.4 110 - Flat spot or intermittent power loss

    Hi Scott who did the egr software delete and how much? Egr's are far less active in JHB than at sea level, so im sure the difference is big for you.
    Cheers
    Last edited by ClaudeG; 2021/04/08 at 08:13 PM.

    Defender Puma Raw Limited Edition
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    Chop your own firewood and it will warm you twice

  10. #8
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    Default Re: 2010 Defender 2.4 110 - Flat spot or intermittent power loss

    On seconds thoughts, everytime im at the coast my egr did create flat spots and weird acceleration characteristics, but not as pronounced as you described. Im hoping for you its just your egr and now sorted!

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    Arrow Re: 2010 Defender 2.4 110 - Flat spot or intermittent power loss

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaudeG View Post
    On seconds thoughts, everytime im at the coast my egr did create flat spots and weird acceleration characteristics, but not as pronounced as you described. Im hoping for you its just your egr and now sorted!
    ATM did the delete, they use a KESS module to do it - It cost R3500 (so not cheap, but cheap when you consider how much it was dirtying/degrading the system - at least thats what I tell myself) - I think there was an option for more HP from the map, but I opted out, no hardware to counteract the higher EGTs other than the EGR delete. But I'm of the opinion of making the most improved "stock" version of a Defender.

    When I consider the cost versus BAS, its on par. I mean I would prefer BAS haha - no offense to any ATM guys reading this. But just because that is their thing!
    https://bellautoservices.co.uk/store...-for-road-use/

    But really, it's strange how much easier she is to drive. I used to help her on deceleration and take up with feathering the clutch because the power delivery was all over the show. With a clean EGR, I reckon she would be an easier drive, but based on what I saw in the intake, I can only imagine its sooted up. So as much as the EGR was opening, and it would've been correcting mixtures based on expected flow, it just felt like it wasn't working.

    The cleaning cycle still engages on shut down. Apparently that is recommended since soot still goes to the valve, and build up can unseat the valve and cause a leak. Read a bit on it on D2.net - this is also what is expected from a BAS EGR bypass. So in the future I'll look at a full removal, but that's probably an unnecessary cost at this point.

    Going to flush the intercooler this weekend. And based on those results will consider the decat.
    2010 Land Rover Defender 110
    2018 Mazda CX-5 (SWAMBO)
    2015 VW Caddy Cross (Sold)
    1998 Land Rover Defender 2.8i (2.5i replacement due to overheat ) (Sold - twins on the way, needed 4 doors...)
    2009 Suzuki Jimny, Raised, Snorkel, BFG AT's, Little Engine that could (Sold)

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    Question Re: 2010 Defender 2.4 110 - Flat sopt or intermittent power loss

    So after sitting in traffic, this flat spot issue reappeared! And it lasted a lot longer than a couple of seconds. About 30sec on the highway cleared it up, and she was normal again.

    I presume this is something to do with overboost? Actuator sticking due to stop start traffic and struggling to move freely until constant airflow?

    Sound familiar?
    2010 Land Rover Defender 110
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    Default Re: 2010 Defender 2.4 110 - Flat spot or intermittent power loss

    Scott ive heard of guys spraying the linkages with lubricant and working them loose by hand...maybe worth a try.

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    Default Re: 2010 Defender 2.4 110 - Flat spot or intermittent power loss

    Im looking at your photos again, your air filter looks filthy. It could be blocked and at low rpm turbo cant suck enough air through it.

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  18. #13
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    Arrow Re: 2010 Defender 2.4 110 - Flat spot or intermittent power loss

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaudeG View Post
    Im looking at your photos again, your air filter looks filthy. It could be blocked and at low rpm turbo cant suck enough air through it.
    Thanks Claude! Tbh I never really know whatís normal with air filters etc - will change it out - but itís definitely some sort of a limp mode happening. Wasnít able to flush intercooler last weekend, to much going on... recently acquired a second hand mad man, so hoping to fit that soon with all the right sensors so I can really see what is going on with temps too
    2010 Land Rover Defender 110
    2018 Mazda CX-5 (SWAMBO)
    2015 VW Caddy Cross (Sold)
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  20. #14
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    Default Re: 2010 Defender 2.4 110 - Flat sopt or intermittent power loss

    As another note, Iím weary i over topped up coolant the other day, there was no loss, as I found out, but wife had to take it on a 700km trip, other car was out of service. So Iím worried thereís not enough space for expansion, pressure on the water etc.... will bleed it to normal levels tomorrow
    2010 Land Rover Defender 110
    2018 Mazda CX-5 (SWAMBO)
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    1998 Land Rover Defender 2.8i (2.5i replacement due to overheat ) (Sold - twins on the way, needed 4 doors...)
    2009 Suzuki Jimny, Raised, Snorkel, BFG AT's, Little Engine that could (Sold)

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    Default Re: 2010 Defender 2.4 110 - Flat sopt or intermittent power loss

    Have to admit something here - don't take overfilling lightly, the pressure it placed on the system on a hot day was very noticeable. After reducing the levels to the correct amount, it ran better. Sounds strange, maybe, but its true!
    2010 Land Rover Defender 110
    2018 Mazda CX-5 (SWAMBO)
    2015 VW Caddy Cross (Sold)
    1998 Land Rover Defender 2.8i (2.5i replacement due to overheat ) (Sold - twins on the way, needed 4 doors...)
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