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  1. #101
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    Today will be a day for just getting the workshop organised again.

    The tools and spares all went for a walk and the bolt and nuts are running around all over the place.
    “The price of stability is unpreparedness.”

  2. #102
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    Quote Originally Posted by biltong View Post
    The important thing is that a liner like this should be fire retardant, especially on the engine side.

    We did think of lining the firewall on the inside too, but I can see that the rubber moulding will not sit well with that much extra padding below it.



    Attachment 611533

    Attachment 611534

    Attachment 611535
    Out of interest why use bituman foil tape that is designed for water proofing or roof joints instead of the proper sound deadening material? I have heard that the shear strength of the bituman foil tape is very weak as its not designed to be used at those angles and eventually comes loose and catches on the windows. How is the smell if there is any?
    Surely it would be better to just do it properly from the beginning or not do it at all?

    Anyway, all the best with the build. Very interesting. Will you be doing some overlanding in it once completed?
    Last edited by BruceT; 2021/05/03 at 04:36 PM.
    BruceT
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    Defender 130 Puma

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceT View Post
    Out of interest why use bituman foil tape that is designed for water proofing or roof joints instead of the proper sound deadening material? I have heard that the shear strength of the bituman foil tape is very weak as its not designed to be used at those angles and eventually comes loose and catches on the windows. How is the smell if there is any?
    Surely it would be better to just do it properly from the beginning or not do it at all?

    Anyway, all the best with the build. Very interesting. Will you be doing some overlanding in it once completed?

    According to the oaks who are serious about sound proofing of vehicles, the product I have used is near exact to the ones branded for automotive use.

    I can however not understand your concern about shear strength. We pasted it mostly on virtually flat surfaces and it is pretty sticky.

    It only comes loose if you paste it on dusty surfaces.

    Smell? Perhaps we will find out when the vehicles was standing in the sun.
    “The price of stability is unpreparedness.”

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    Ok. The reason I am asking is because when I did my 130 (and I did proper sound by serious sound guys) I was planning on doing the exact same thing infact I have a roll of the stuff in my garage which anyone is welcome to for free. I was warned not to so decided to do it using the purpose made product/sound stuff. It is definitely not the same as the sound stuff..but I am still interested to see how it works.
    the shear strength is important especially because of the way you have mounted it - vertical vs horizontal. As you say time will tell.
    But I am fussy and prefer to do things properly or not do them at all and I figured the small saving is not worth the possible frustration in future.
    Last edited by BruceT; 2021/05/03 at 08:48 PM.
    BruceT
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    Defender 130 Puma

  5. #105
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceT View Post
    Ok. The reason I am asking is because when I did my 130 (and I did proper sound by serious sound guys) I was planning on doing the exact same thing infact I have a roll of the stuff in my garage which anyone is welcome to for free. I was warned not to so decided to do it using the purpose made product/sound stuff. It is definitely not the same as the sound stuff..but I am still interested to see how it works.
    the shear strength is important especially because of the way you have mounted it - vertical vs horizontal. As you say time will tell.
    But I am fussy and prefer to do things properly or not do them at all and I figured the small saving is not worth the possible frustration in future.
    Read the material safety data sheets.

    The products are both bitumen based. All it does it dampen the metallic sound from the bare sheet metal. It has little to none sound absorption capacity.

    (Although not a sound professional, sound dampening and sound isolation is part of my work.)

    We have dropped about R 70 000 in parts on this vehicle and our main focus was to get it mechanically perfect.

    The sound improvement was certainly not our main focus - especially not on a code 3 vehicle. I am not going to spend 10x more on Dynamat as it won't work 10x better.

    Regarding the shear strength, there are absolutely zero shear forces at play. Tensile forces maybe if the metal expand due to heat - and that will be microns on a door length.

    If direction does make a difference, it would be for another reason.

    Alternatively, you need to update me on the definition of shear strength. I am a little rusty on my 4 semesters of Strength of Materials.
    “The price of stability is unpreparedness.”

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    Quote Originally Posted by biltong View Post
    Read the material safety data sheets.

    The products are both bitumen based. All it does it dampen the metallic sound from the bare sheet metal. It has little to none sound absorption capacity.

    (Although not a sound professional, sound dampening and sound isolation is part of my work.)

    We have dropped about R 70 000 in parts on this vehicle and our main focus was to get it mechanically perfect.

    The sound improvement was certainly not our main focus - especially not on a code 3 vehicle. I am not going to spend 10x more on Dynamat as it won't work 10x better.

    Regarding the shear strength, there are absolutely zero shear forces at play. Tensile forces maybe if the metal expand due to heat - and that will be microns on a door length.

    If direction does make a difference, it would be for another reason.

    Alternatively, you need to update me on the definition of shear strength. I am a little rusty on my 4 semesters of Strength of Materials.
    The problem is that on a hot day the bitumen melts and then the sheets drop into the door preventing the window to drop down fully and some bitumen even gets smeared against the pane...
    2006 Defender 110 Td5

  7. #107
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    Shooo! Ok then. Shoot a man for asking. Why the arrogance in your reply?

    I can tell you they are not the same. The roof product is dirty and when hot gets sticky and makes a mess everywhere and is not designed to be stuck onto a vertical surface. It is also. It as conformance. The real stuff designed for use in vehicles is less messy and has better adhesives to ensure it can go onto vertical surfaces and is very conformable.

    If you are telling me R70k to impress me or tell me it’s a lot of money then sorry it didn’t work. I’m actually surprised it’s so little. My roof top tent and sound alone was more than that so I understand how costs can add up quickly.
    btw? shear strengths can be affected by the weight of the product out weighing the ability of the adhesion properties built into the product causing the adhesion surface to shear. Many sound deadening products have cross linked acrylic adhesives to help with vertical applications. Roof foil tape doesn’t even have adhesive as it relies on the bitumen to make it stick which turns into a runny sloppy mess when hot and this along with the weight of the product will cause it to come loose or shear in some cases. But as you say time will tell and I’m interested to see the result.

    Suid-Wes I agree and what I tried to explain but clearly it’s pointless......


    My questions clearly irritated you and you retaliated in such an arrogant way. My questions weren’t meant to irritate you, so I apologise if they came across that way. But after building two race cars where on my latest my front brakes alone were more than what you’ve spent on this build, a couple Landy’s and recently basically reconditioning my 130 I have learnt to just do things properly, and spending R1800 on sound deadening rather than R300 on roof seal tape is a no brainier to me, unless of course you don’t have the budget then I would leave it as it comes from factory.

    Good luck with your build. I mean that sincerely.
    Last edited by BruceT; 2021/05/04 at 06:29 PM.
    BruceT
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  9. #108
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Suid-Wes View Post
    The problem is that on a hot day the bitumen melts and then the sheets drop into the door preventing the window to drop down fully and some bitumen even gets smeared against the pane...
    Of course. But it depends on the product you use.

    Some formulations "boils" out a snotty layer that almost looks like caramel and then it slips on it's own grease.

    Others sort of dry out and just becomes brittle. In between you get all sort of variants.

    I have used this specific product over many years in some very hot environments and it lasts. If your surface is prepared well, you better stick it on at the right place. It is a PITA to remove.

    All that I need to find out is if it will make a Defender more silent.
    Last edited by biltong; 2021/05/05 at 05:08 AM.
    “The price of stability is unpreparedness.”

  10. #109
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceT View Post
    Shooo! Ok then. Shoot a man for asking. Why the arrogance in your reply?
    Sorry, can't see the arrogance there.

    But ja, there are many ways to skin a cat and there is nothing wrong with experimenting.
    Last edited by biltong; 2021/05/05 at 08:57 AM.
    “The price of stability is unpreparedness.”

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  12. #110
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    Anyways, back to the car.

    Yesterday Cobus was the only one in the shop and he had to pack up tools to make space to move out the Caddy that has to go in for repairs.

    He manged to get the wipers going and in typical Defender wiper fashion a working wiper was hardly better a non working one. Good grief they are lazy - even compared to 1980 standards.

    The roof lining still needs another layer of paint.

    We wanted to peel of the fabric first, but the lining is is brittle from water damage somewhere in the past and it was not possible to do so without worse damage. So we decided to just paint over the canvas.


    Perhaps another thing I did not mention:

    We painted the door panels with gun-metal Rustoleum Peel Coat. While it looks really great, it does peel of exactly as easy as they say it do. This is probably something you use only for fun.

    We will try again with normal spray-paint of the same colour and see if perhaps that works, but I have my doubts that it will work.


    Today will again be a lone day for him.


    In retrospect, there are probably some things that I should have left for another day to get the vehicle running and road worthy first.

    But hey, a little emotion in a project makes it something to remember.

    This is after all the year for my son where he needs to learn some vital practical and life skills.
    Last edited by biltong; 2021/05/05 at 05:27 AM.
    “The price of stability is unpreparedness.”

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  14. #111
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    Quote Originally Posted by biltong View Post

    Alternatively, you need to update me on the definition of shear strength. I am a little rusty on my 4 semesters of Strength of Materials.
    Not kiff Biltong. I had a lot of respect for the way you tackled the D2 and the 130 projects. Bitchy comments like this lower that respect a bit.
    We all have ### days, remember to breathe before you type.
    Last edited by Chopped; 2021/05/05 at 08:21 AM.

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  16. #112
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    Motor and boxes fixed on mounts today.

    Compared to the rest. Stoooopidly easy and quick.

    We decided to lift the boxed by using the slurpie to lift the assembled set through the transmission tunnel. This is by far the best method I ever used.


    Defender vs. Disco 1

    With the Defender, as one can remove the front end in total, so you have a low profile open hole to push the engine back into the gearbox.

    With the Disco, it is easier to put the engine in first and push in the boxes from the back.

    The Defender method is a lot less stress.


    The door panels were also painted, this time with plastic primer and paint. This actually works very well.

    We should be running soon.
    “The price of stability is unpreparedness.”

  17. #113
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Chopped View Post
    Not kiff Biltong. I had a lot of respect for the way you tackled the D2 and the 130 projects. Bitchy comments like this lower that respect a bit.
    We all have ### days, remember to breathe before you type.
    Uncle Chopped. I hear you.

    But you know what?

    At some point one needs to accept that I am who I am.

    Life takes all of us ways and shapes us.

    Right now I do have higher priorities than being nice to all others than my ultimate best friend - my wife.

    And I am not going to apologize for that.

    After all, I am not a politician.
    “The price of stability is unpreparedness.”

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  19. #114
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    Some more progress.

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    Last edited by biltong; 2021/05/09 at 06:16 PM.
    “The price of stability is unpreparedness.”

  20. #115
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    This was a bit of a dead week with Cobus being the only hand in the shop and also only for three days.

    Yesterday I started to fit the engine wiring loom, we still had some work to do on the tail lights and we gawked at the rear chassis member to see how on earth I will fit a tow bars, as the chassis members are seriously abused due to wrong fitting of tow bars.

    It seems I might need to but and weld new 140x80mm sections in there.

    We also filled the diffs and boxes with fresh oil. The electric oil pump I bought many years ago makes this task palatable, but still it takes a while.


    We also found that one major radiator pipe was also not supplied. I am not happy camper as this was done by a parts supplier that on a previous occasion when I was in a much worse position, also failed to make sure I get a FULL SET of pipes. That IMHO means every single pipe under that bonnet.

    Since we could not do much more, I thought lets just give it tray and see how a D2 oil cooler will fit for for the R380 gearbox.

    For those who do not know, it is possible to fit an oil cooler to a R380 manual box. There is a fitting that one replace on the side of the box that has ports for pipes and then you can connect an oil cooler.

    On my D1, I have fitted an intercooler from a D1 V8 Auto and it made a major difference. I measure gearbox temperature on the transfer case. Since the transfer is mated to the main box, the metal surface between the two acts as a cooling fin for the transfer.

    Before the cooler, I easily saw 115⁰C on the transfer sensor when towing. There after I have never seen more than 95⁰C towing on the hottest of days. Since there is a 20⁰C drop there, the main box has to run cooler and I suspect no more than 85⁰C on the main box.

    For me an oil cooler is a no brainer and I wanted that so I ordered a fitting for my gearbox.

    I took the oil cooler and pipes from the Donor D2 that repaired Blink Tank, and wince they are made to route along the bottom of the TD5, I thought ity would be an easy fit.

    Hell, what a great surprise! The cooler is only slightly wider than the Defender radiator. The one end can as a matter of fact slide into the radiator mount made for a an oil cooler, and on the other side we need to make a simple bracket to fix that end.

    The pipes were fixed to the motor and all routes very well. So, now we only have to make up a short distance of bund to connect the gearbox and the oil cooler.



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    Last edited by biltong; 2021/05/16 at 06:36 AM.
    “The price of stability is unpreparedness.”

  21. #116
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    We had another nasty setback. A well known used parts supplier have send me two full sets of radiator/AC condenser/intercooler.

    The pics he have send me was of course, looking good goof but still no closeup.

    When we opened the boxed, the one radiator was for a D2 and not for a Defender. The one intercooler was totally effed.

    The one good radiator was damaged on one water channel and there was a fresh hole in due to careless stripping.

    I had a single intercooler I could use, radiator brackets and bonnet catch panels.

    These are not normally components I would buy used, but the problem is I needed the radiator brackets, bonnet catch panels AC pipes and all that - and AC condensers are very hard to find.

    A used intercooler is also not a high risk to take.

    Like previously when he had to deliver the spares, it seems I will have to nag him again to either send me other parts, or do a refund.

    Just check out that intercooler - also compared it to my one that is on the scrap heap. No difference.

    I will rather not tell what I paid for it.


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    Last edited by biltong; 2021/05/16 at 06:34 AM.
    “The price of stability is unpreparedness.”

  22. #117
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    Another modification high on the list:

    I would really like to have a Donaldson filterbox for the Defender.

    These filters are quite a bit more efficient than the panel filters, due to the fact that a Donaldson has a first stage cyclone which takes out a significant amount of large particles.

    Secondly, the filter box of the Defender Td5 is similar to that of the D2. I don't like that box as it is too easy to make a small mistake when installing a new filter and then it does not seal well.

    For some reason the D1 with a similar filter, just fits better.

    The box on my Defender was not in great shape with broken retainer clips too.

    Amazes me how any mechanic can fit a filter and this somehow is not important to him - that the filter seals properly.
    “The price of stability is unpreparedness.”

  23. #118
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    Nice filter for TD5 def but Eish the price
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    1995 300TDi Defender with VGT Turbo (stolen by my son now )
    2002 Defender with LS1 MS3 ECU, 4L80e, LT230 1.222, Lockers and HD CW&P, 35" with 4" Lift
    2005 Defender TD5

  24. #119
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    Quote Originally Posted by clivemd View Post
    Nice filter for TD5 def but Eish the price
    Indeed. A little far above my fireplace.
    “The price of stability is unpreparedness.”

  25. #120
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    Default Re: Project 2: Defender 130 V.3-Amigos ??

    Quote Originally Posted by biltong View Post
    Indeed. A little far above my fireplace.
    instead of Donaldson, why not just see if you can get a used Defender TDI or V8 filter. They both came with Donaldson clones. The V8 is a much bigger can, but the TDI filter should be sufficient.

    I don’t know how Land Rover thinks they made an improvement going to the silly plastic box and panel filter after the great filtration they had on older models

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