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Thread: Mars

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Gustav Jimny View Post
    Njet, not real time.......
    correct, physical distance makes real time comms impossible. What I believe they referred to was the a basic data signal from the probe during its decent (when comms are impossible anyway) just to let them know its still operating. While they were getting that signal the rover was in fact already safely on the ground, we just didn't know it yet.
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    Default Re: Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by mullerza View Post
    correct, physical distance makes real time comms impossible. What I believe they referred to was the a basic data signal from the probe during its decent (when comms are impossible anyway) just to let them know its still operating. While they were getting that signal the rover was in fact already safely on the ground, we just didn't know it yet.
    This is the logical position to accept.
    So no chance of dark matter or anti-gravity running between the lander and Mother Earth at hyper speed?

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    Default Re: Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Gustav Jimny View Post
    Njet, not real time.......
    Correct, data comes in at speed of light, but even that takes a few minutes at 300 000km/s.

    When does helicopter fly? Acc to video it is mounted on its side below the spacecraft, will first swivel upright and then bolts holding it will explode, releasing the chopper. As soon as vehicle start moving, chopper will be out in open to fly. Lots to go wrong
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    Default Re: Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Olyfboer View Post
    I am qualified as an ROV (Remotely Operated Vehicle) Pilot, so I am very impressed by the achievement of the Perseverance mission.

    The difference is that I operate in real time, although every mission is preplanned taking hazards, approach paths, escape paths and no go areas into consideration. When more than one vehicle are operating together, planning becomes more intricate and communication is key.

    Much of the robotics of the Mars rovers has been pioneered on Earth for many years in the offshore oil industry where the depths are far too great for divers. The start was with what are now considered very primitive vehicles and presently advanced vehicles are used. As a point of interest I include some pics of a heavy work class vehicle rated to operate at up to 3000 metres deep that I was part of the crew on.

    As a matter of interest and not to detract from the Mars rover, an insight into some of the technology that led up to the Mars mission:

    A new generation Heavy Work Class Remotely Operated Vehicle

    Attachment 607755

    The pilot and co-pilots seats in the control room

    The vehicle has a crew of three. The co-pilot tends to be far busier than the pilot keeping the pilot informed, performing navigation, operating the sonar and transponders, recording client requested information, operating the spatially controlled arm, checking alarms and vehicle health, communicating with control and other vehicles on the mission and ensuring the trainee pilot/junior pilot keeps the log book and photo/video register up to date.

    The pilot flies the mission and is responsible for the safety of the vehicle.

    Attachment 607756

    The pilots chair.

    Note the foot pedals, joysticks and touch screen with multiple pages of controls.

    Attachment 607757

    An American colleague flying a mission.

    Attachment 607758

    The same colleague engaging in wishful thinking after fitting an hydraulically operated extension tool to the vehicle.

    It's a big socket spanner and torque wrench extension. The round buoyancies attached to the vehicle are to compensate for the weight of the tool.

    Attachment 607759

    The business end of the vehicle configured for a specific mission.

    The pan and tilt zoom colour video and HD cameras with their LED light can be seen as can the thrusters and hydraulically controlled arms. All tools for the mission are attached to the arm on the right of the pic. They are attached in their preplanned sequence of use for the mission. All hydraulic hoses to the tools and the orange electrical cable are routed and tied in their preplanned sequences of use to prevent fouling on deployment.

    Attachment 607760

    Hope this gives some insight into the difficulties of using remote vehicles like the Mars rover.
    Great post, thanks for sharing that.
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  6. #25
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    Default Re: Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Olyfboer View Post
    I am qualified as an ROV (Remotely Operated Vehicle) Pilot, so I am very impressed by the achievement of the Perseverance mission.

    The difference is that I operate in real time, although every mission is preplanned taking hazards, approach paths, escape paths and no go areas into consideration. When more than one vehicle are operating together, planning becomes more intricate and communication is key.

    Much of the robotics of the Mars rovers has been pioneered on Earth for many years in the offshore oil industry where the depths are far too great for divers. The start was with what are now considered very primitive vehicles and presently advanced vehicles are used. As a point of interest I include some pics of a heavy work class vehicle rated to operate at up to 3000 metres deep that I was part of the crew on.

    As a matter of interest and not to detract from the Mars rover, an insight into some of the technology that led up to the Mars mission:

    A new generation Heavy Work Class Remotely Operated Vehicle

    Attachment 607755

    The pilot and co-pilots seats in the control room

    The vehicle has a crew of three. The co-pilot tends to be far busier than the pilot keeping the pilot informed, performing navigation, operating the sonar and transponders, recording client requested information, operating the spatially controlled arm, checking alarms and vehicle health, communicating with control and other vehicles on the mission and ensuring the trainee pilot/junior pilot keeps the log book and photo/video register up to date.

    The pilot flies the mission and is responsible for the safety of the vehicle.

    Attachment 607756

    The pilots chair.

    Note the foot pedals, joysticks and touch screen with multiple pages of controls.

    Attachment 607757

    An American colleague flying a mission.

    Attachment 607758

    The same colleague engaging in wishful thinking after fitting an hydraulically operated extension tool to the vehicle.

    It's a big socket spanner and torque wrench extension. The round buoyancies attached to the vehicle are to compensate for the weight of the tool.

    Attachment 607759

    The business end of the vehicle configured for a specific mission.

    The pan and tilt zoom colour video and HD cameras with their LED light can be seen as can the thrusters and hydraulically controlled arms. All tools for the mission are attached to the arm on the right of the pic. They are attached in their preplanned sequence of use for the mission. All hydraulic hoses to the tools and the orange electrical cable are routed and tied in their preplanned sequences of use to prevent fouling on deployment.

    Attachment 607760

    Hope this gives some insight into the difficulties of using remote vehicles like the Mars rover.
    OT, but I am officially envious.
    I tried for a long time to get into the ROV scene, but you guys run a very closed door industry.
    Cheers,
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  7. #26
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    Default Re: Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by plunger View Post
    This stuff is so mind boggling and really exciting. You wonder where we will be in five hundred years. my name is on Mars so Im chuffed about that.
    The Musk brothers have a good concept going. One gets you to Mars the other can produce food at a controlled environment. Very interesting time ahead.


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    Default Re: Mars

    My question is, if you need to send a radio signal around the world, you need a bit of power and of course from what I hear cloud cover can interfere (correct me if wrong). Surly then to transmit radio frequency to Mars, one needs a clear night sky and plenty of power to boost a radio signal. Why can't they use light or Lazer to control the module ie bounce it off a satellite.
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  9. #28
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    Default Re: Mars

    Light, laser, radio signal at those distances, same thing, same speed.
    Bottom line, what is the easiest, cheapest, most rugged tech to transmit data on......
    You said it yourself, light, laser requires clear sky, radio does not
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  11. #29
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    Default Re: Mars

    Time / Real time is NOT the question here.

    everyone MISSED it - we're always told there is no atmosphere on the Moon or Mars.......... how'd the parachute work??

    My background reading seems to suggest Mars is the equivalent to 12000' on earth....... makes you think

    We DID see the dust being blown around by the 'landing' thrusters - never seen ANY DUST with the moon landing or more importantly - TAKEOFF
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    Default Re: Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt Chaos View Post

    everyone MISSED it - we're always told there is no atmosphere on the Moon or Mars.......... how'd the parachute work??
    Mars does have an atmosphere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Mars

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    Default Re: Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt Chaos View Post
    Time / Real time is NOT the question here.

    everyone MISSED it - we're always told there is no atmosphere on the Moon or Mars.......... how'd the parachute work??

    My background reading seems to suggest Mars is the equivalent to 12000' on earth....... makes you think

    We DID see the dust being blown around by the 'landing' thrusters - never seen ANY DUST with the moon landing or more importantly - TAKEOFF
    Yes yes yes. We know the moon landings were faked.
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    Default Re: Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by IcePick88 View Post
    Yes yes yes. We know the moon landings were faked.

    I WISH i DID!!
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  16. #33
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    Default Re: Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt Chaos View Post
    Time / Real time is NOT the question here.

    everyone MISSED it - we're always told there is no atmosphere on the Moon or Mars.......... how'd the parachute work??

    My background reading seems to suggest Mars is the equivalent to 12000' on earth....... makes you think

    We DID see the dust being blown around by the 'landing' thrusters - never seen ANY DUST with the moon landing or more importantly - TAKEOFF
    I know you are joking, but the design of the Mars lander parachutes was in fact an engineering feat all in itself to design a parachute able to operate in such a thin atmosphere, deploy at supersonic speeds and still manage to substantially slow down the lander
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    Default Re: Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt Chaos View Post
    Time / Real time is NOT the question here.

    everyone MISSED it - we're always told there is no atmosphere on the Moon or Mars.......... how'd the parachute work??

    My background reading seems to suggest Mars is the equivalent to 12000' on earth....... makes you think

    We DID see the dust being blown around by the 'landing' thrusters - never seen ANY DUST with the moon landing or more importantly - TAKEOFF
    In this video of the Apollo 11landing, you can see dust being blown away during the approach (from ca. 4:30).Some of the particles were blasted clear over the horizon and may have ended up halfway across the moon. The 'ground' below the dust isn't smooth. Like new basalt, it has a grainy texture, as you can see here directly below the exhaust:

    At 4:34 They even report - "Picking up some dust".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_OD2V6fMLQ

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  20. #35
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    Default Re: Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnoK View Post
    OT, but I am officially envious.
    I tried for a long time to get into the ROV scene, but you guys run a very closed door industry.
    I didn't think it was OT because a lot of the robotics and technology used in the Mars rover would have been the same or based on the technology developed by the offshore oil industry.

    The offshore oil industry also uses robotic AUV's (Autonomous Underwater Vehicles) for some survey applications now. Programme, launch and forget till recovery. Saves the ROV pilot from flying a grid pattern within very strict height above seabed, grid line following (Accurate navigation within 1 metre of position and collision avoidance sonar use by the co-pilot) and speed parameters without kicking up dust.

    An AUV worth millions of Dollars has been lost under the Antarctic ice of the Weddell Sea while searching for the wreck of Shackleton's ship Endurance. The first time it was lost it was rescued by a remotely piloted ROV. But the next time it is assumed to have got lost and surfaced under the ice while the ROV was out of action as the electronics can was crushed by seawater pressure but was recovered using the standard dead sub recovery procedure.

    I write this to illustrate the difficulties of operating complex robotic machinery in harsh environments (You may as well be on Mars when operating near the seabed in water deeper than 1000 metres) which was pioneered by the offshore oil industry and the peak of the development is the Perseverance rover. It's a combination of autonomous and piloted robotics. I tried to illustrate why mission planning for the rover is so crucial by showing that even incorrect hose routing on an earthbound ROV can cause a mission failure as there is no way that a wrong decision can be rectified because the vehicle is out of reach.

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  22. #36
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    Default Re: Mars

    Name:  WhatsApp Image 2021-03-02 at 8.07.55 AM.jpg
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  24. #37
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    Default Re: Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto Betta View Post
    The Musk brothers have a good concept going. One gets you to Mars the other can produce food at a controlled environment. Very interesting time ahead.



    On a related note and TIC, it's very interesting that the two richest people on earth are trying to leave the planet rather than fixing the planet.
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    Default Re: Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by bigboy529 View Post
    On a related note and TIC, it's very interesting that the two richest people on earth are trying to leave the planet rather than fixing the planet.
    They are trying to fix our planet by leaving it.
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    Default Re: Mars

    Interesting article on the Perseverance parachute
    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/27/w...scn/index.html
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  28. #40
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    Default Re: Mars

    Quote Originally Posted by bigboy529 View Post
    On a related note and TIC, it's very interesting that the two richest people on earth are trying to leave the planet rather than fixing the planet.
    How do you fix 70 Billion idiots ?
    Idiots that are out breeding resources faster than it can be replenished ?
    Strip mine the land, the beaches, the ocean bed for rare earth minerals so Joe Blog can have a new car, new cellphone, new tv, new computer every year ?
    Poison the air with sulfuric acid, co2, mercury, and hydrogen sulphide from coal fired power stations, so we can run our ovens, microwaves, aircons, charge our "green" electric vehicles ?
    Where do you think those fancy chemicals and metallic compounds in their batteries and electronics come from ?
    And what happens to the air quality when your typical third world backyard "recycler" burns and melts those things, once they are thrown away ?

    I am glad I do not have children, within the next three or four generations, really big scheize is going to happen.
    As a friend of mine has said, maybe humans are the disease, and Covid the cure......

    Very dark, I know
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