Basic Income - There may just be some sense in this ...

[Peter1949]

I think that we are all very aware of the huge differences (in the economic sense) between sectors of human population existing worldwide, but particularly in South Africa and other developing (?) or 3rd world countries.
No matter the cause or reasoning - these differences exist and need to to be addressed urgently, otherwise chaos will ensue.
Also the potential and already developing, reduction in working opportunities for the "man in the street", the gradual, or not so gradual development of artificial intelligence and automated alternatives.
Even replacement of qualified and professional occupations by AI are ultimately inevitable.

A lot of the economics here go against my own training and life experience and even, to some extent, my beliefs.
However, my own inclination is always to listen to and take note of other opinions.

They are not always right, but then neither are your own pre-conceived ideas or theories.

https://youtu.be/OQjrhIyaPyg

Please take the time to view this and having done that - I would be very interested in everyone's thoughts on it, both positive and negative.
I suggest watching to the end before formulating any comments either way.

[tashtego9]

I think that we are all very aware of the huge differences (in the economic sense) between sectors of human population existing worldwide, but particularly in South Africa and other developing (?) or 3rd world countries.
No matter the cause or reasoning - these differences exist and need to to be addressed urgently, otherwise chaos will ensue.
Also the potential and already developing, reduction in working opportunities for the "man in the street", the gradual, or not so gradual development of artificial intelligence and automated alternatives.
Even replacement of qualified and professional occupations by AI are ultimately inevitable.

A lot of the economics here go against my own training and life experience and even, to some extent, my beliefs.
However, my own inclination is always to listen to and take note of other opinions.

They are not always right, but then neither are your own pre-conceived ideas or theories.

https://youtu.be/OQjrhIyaPyg

Please take the time to view this and having done that - I would be very interested in everyone's thoughts on it, both positive and negative.
I suggest watching to the end before formulating any comments either way.

Peter, you communist, you, I am shocked!

Don't you know there is no such thing as a free lunch? Free money will make everyone sit under the mango tree and then who'll mow all the lawns...bla bla...

I agree with you entirely: we want hyper mechanization and 'robotification' of the working environment: and what are the working masses going to do? Disappear?

I started a similar thread some time back, good luck!

[MANDREAS]

The logical conclusion of this debate will be:

[Peter1949]

We can already buy and program an automated lawn mower .....
I do it myself, although under duress at times, simply because it is a kind of physical exercise and keeps me "moving".
There is also a some degree of personal satisfaction in doing it yourself.

I know it was tongue in cheek, but let me assure you that I am about as far from communist as could be.
However, we have to "get real" about the future.
I am not saying that this would be the answer, only that we should not close our minds to it and should think it through - THEN comment +/-.

Otherwise - ALTERNATIVE solutions to the looming problem should be suggested.

This should be an open and unbiased discussion please.

Just a general response, not aimed at your comment at all.

[Jouko]

Read Sci-Fi to see some options what to do with excess population

Old method was to start a destructive war.

In many countries population was moved to towns and cities without any means to grow food. This was done also here. We simply do not have money or means to feed those people. In Europe various forms of social grants were voted in by the population born after the WWII. It started with low interest rate loans for housing, free schooling, medical, pensions... Those who voted them in are now pensioners. They never paid for any of this. Today in Europe pensioners and public servants are majority of the voting population. Politicians have tried to roll back these benefits for which there are insufficient moneys. Only one who has had reasonable success was German Social Democrat Schroder.

We have less money, uneducated population, large number of people not willing to work or even do small scale farming, dishonest politicians and state employees ...

Please invent a tree, which grows money.

[C Africa]

The reason why we reduce the labour component of our businesses, are mainly two fold (here in SA):

• The enormous complexity of complying with the labour laws,
• The unaffordable cost of labour.

If the Government were to reduce this complexity as well as the silly minimum wage nonsense, that on its own will cause the BIGGEST drop to unemployment EVER in this country!


The route to getting people out of their poverty circle is NOT to give them money, as mentioned, it just makes them sit under the mango trees, instead of picking the mangoes and selling them.

There are literally millions of people in SA who have NO INTEREST whatsoever in trying to be productive and earning an income, why should they, the government will provide. If they didn't receive their grant like clockwork every month, many f them will be forced to change their attitude, and that can only be a good thing.


C

[Cecilh]

Guess it all really boils down to staying in power? Keep paying and keep getting votes.

[Fluffy]

There are literally millions of people in SA who have NO INTEREST whatsoever in trying to be productive and earning an income, why should they, the government will provide. If they didn't receive their grant like clockwork every month, many f them will be forced to change their attitude, and that can only be a good thing.


C

I am not sure I agree with this. In my view there are many many millions of people slaving their guts out for so little money they cant properly feed, house , clothe and educate themselves. Why does a system allow people to be exploited to the point where they can put in an honest days work, day after day and still not afford the basic necessities of life.

We see them walking to work in the rain, or waiting at a Taxi rank when we drive past in our heated Range Rover/BMW/MB/Jag/LandCruiser/Porshe, on our way to Woolies to pick up another load of luxury food that will go to waste.

You're not going to get enthusiastic rocket scientists with a good work ethic if you pay less per week than you earn in an hour.

[Bex]

I think that we are all very aware of the huge differences (in the economic sense) between sectors of human population existing worldwide, but particularly in South Africa and other developing (?) or 3rd world countries.
No matter the cause or reasoning - these differences exist and need to to be addressed urgently, otherwise chaos will ensue.
Also the potential and already developing, reduction in working opportunities for the "man in the street", the gradual, or not so gradual development of artificial intelligence and automated alternatives.
Even replacement of qualified and professional occupations by AI are ultimately inevitable.

A lot of the economics here go against my own training and life experience and even, to some extent, my beliefs.
However, my own inclination is always to listen to and take note of other opinions.

They are not always right, but then neither are your own pre-conceived ideas or theories.

https://youtu.be/OQjrhIyaPyg

Please take the time to view this and having done that - I would be very interested in everyone's thoughts on it, both positive and negative.
I suggest watching to the end before formulating any comments either way.

I watched his proposals back when he made them leading up to the primaries. My take on it.

How his proposal impacts on you depends on your personal perspective.

If you are a naturally industrious person you would take the "head start" and work with it to create more, and expect everybody else to think that way.

If you are not a naturally industrious person you will find the "head start" insufficient and demand more than the "pittance"

Comfort is the enemy, the more comfortable people are the less likely they are to put in any effort to change their situation.

[Bex]

You're not going to get enthusiastic rocket scientists with a good work ethic if you pay less per week than you earn in an hour.

You are not going to get enthusiastic rocket scientists with proper work ethic if you pay people without them having to lift a finger.

[C Africa]

I am not sure I agree with this. In my view there are many many millions of people slaving their guts out for so little money they cant properly feed, house , clothe and educate themselves. Why does a system allow people to be exploited to the point where they can put in an honest days work, day after day and still not afford the basic necessities of life.

We see them walking to work in the rain, or waiting at a Taxi rank when we drive past in our heated Range Rover/BMW/MB/Jag/LandCruiser/Porshe, on our way to Woolies to pick up another load of luxury food that will go to waste.

You're not going to get enthusiastic rocket scientists with a good work ethic if you pay less per week than you earn in an hour.

I hear you Fluffy, but let me explain my problem: We know there are millions of people in this country sitting in the townships waiting for their social grant money. In other words the one thing they do have, is time! So how many of those people use that time to learn a new skill, get a basic education, try to come up with an entrepreneurial idea etc? None of them!!!! Which is why I don't have the same sympathy for them that you have.


I have also seen how people who earned LESS THAN minimum wage, can make a reasonable living, all it needs is that you should not %$#@ it all away on a big drinking party every time you get a little money (you should visit one of these little rural towns on the day that SASSA pays out, it's like being at a 60's pop concert, EVERYBODY in town is drunk).

I know this is a long term slow solution, but if it were easier and cheaper to employ people, then we would get more investment in the country, which would mean more employment opportunities, until one day there will be a shortage of labour, at which point income levels will start to rise due to supply and demand!!!! You can't multiply wealth bu dividing it, and that is what the socialist system tries to do, it only works until you run out of other people's money!


C

[Bex]

! You can't multiply wealth by dividing it.

[Kaboef]

Its an excessive breeding problem.

Fix that and everything else will fix itself.

[Karol]

I am not sure I agree with this. In my view there are many many millions of people slaving their guts out for so little money they cant properly feed, house , clothe and educate themselves. Why does a system allow people to be exploited to the point where they can put in an honest days work, day after day and still not afford the basic necessities of life.

We see them walking to work in the rain, or waiting at a Taxi rank when we drive past in our heated Range Rover/BMW/MB/Jag/LandCruiser/Porshe, on our way to Woolies to pick up another load of luxury food that will go to waste.

You're not going to get enthusiastic rocket scientists with a good work ethic if you pay less per week than you earn in an hour.

easy to fix, but not political expedient.

place tariff on all goods manufactured in China or Asia for that matter.

its been done to protect car manufacturers in SA and we are adjusted to paying more for cars.

[Estee]

In principle yes, I see the potential benefit to a society as a whole.

I thinks its ironic that the countries that could afford it dont need it. Those are meritocracies where the working for a living far outnumber those who vote for a living.

SA is an ineptocracy where the vote for a living far outnumber those who work for a living.

Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc'-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

[MariusFourie]

Life isnt fair. It never will be.

A good worker will advance in employment and salary in an open employment market most of the time.

In the meantime, make the grant receivers work for their grants. Potholes, sweeping streets, cutting grass, helping out wherever.

If you want a grant, you need to be sterilised.

This is all wishful thinking and will never happen as humans act like viruses. Multiply and consume as quickly as possible and destroy everything in the process with no regard for self consequence.

[mudgrubber]

I am not sure I agree with this. In my view there are many many millions of people slaving their guts out for so little money they cant properly feed, house , clothe and educate themselves. Why does a system allow people to be exploited to the point where they can put in an honest days work, day after day and still not afford the basic necessities of life.

We see them walking to work in the rain, or waiting at a Taxi rank when we drive past in our heated Range Rover/BMW/MB/Jag/LandCruiser/Porshe, on our way to Woolies to pick up another load of luxury food that will go to waste.

You're not going to get enthusiastic rocket scientists with a good work ethic if you pay less per week than you earn in an hour.

Well, speak for yourself and maybe you should make a start at downgrading to something more humble and using the extra cash to fund some students through a technical education, hand out condoms or simply pay those who do work for you, even indirectly, more. Start a digestion plant with all that luxury food from your whole estate that may currently be going to waste or at least compost it rather than sending it to landfill. Start an eWaste recycling initiative. But always with all workers earning more than R10 000 per month or whatever you deem will be needed.

But try not throw stones when you live in a glass house.

[Peter1949]

As expected, some very different viewpoints coming through.
But this was the intention of my post - to generate this kind of debate.

Keep it up folk, discussion and analysis of the different problems vs solutions is the way to find an answer which is most likely to be found somewhere in the middle ground.
I fully agree with comments surrounding the labour legislation and red tape making life extremely difficult for especially individual employers and SMME's, but also for the larger companies.
There is a huge disincentive to employ people unless no other option is feasible.
I pay more than the minimum wage but will not be able to afford some of the extra's now being proposed especially considering that my "staff" only spend one or occasionally two days a week working for us, they work for others (or not) the rest of the time.

Regarding the science fiction scenarios, I remember a movie called "Soylent Green" (I think).
Mmmm, was that not reflecting the disposing of the older people by some re-cycling .... In which case I feel that may not be in MY best interest !

[C Africa]

In principle yes, I see the potential benefit to a society as a whole.

I thinks its ironic that the countries that could afford it dont need it. Those are meritocracies where the working for a living far outnumber those who vote for a living.

SA is an ineptocracy where the vote for a living far outnumber those who work for a living.

Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc'-ra-cy) - a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

An interesting graph surfaced after the budget speech:

113 000 salary earners pay 27% of all the PAYE.
15% of salary earners, pay 82% of all employees tax


When it comes to company tax the picture is even more skewed.
Just 0.1% of the companies pay 64% of the tax
4.7% of the companies pay 96% of the tax.


So yes, those that pay are exceedingly far outnumbered by those who vote for a living!!!


What it also means is that every time one of those high earners or producers decide to leave because they no longer feel welcome in this country, it makes an ENORMOUS dent in the revenue of the fiscus!


C

[tashtego9]

Overpopulation is one big part of the problem.

It can only be solved through education, in particular education of girls. Also possibly through giving massive incentives to families that stick to one or two children.

I saw this graph somewhere where level of education in young women and number of children each woman has track nicely together, in an inverse relationship: lower education, more children. It's intuitive, really.

The problem in Africa and some Asian countries is that the duty of promoting girls education sits with the Ineptocracies/Cleptocracies that run the show...