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    Default Tax

    Is there somebody that make this clearer, what is the result of this.
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    Default Re: Tax

    My reading. If you are still planning to leave and wanted to use any retirement savings to set yourself up on the other side, you are probably to late. You will need capital over and above your SA locked-up retirement savings to live from for at least 3 years. Probably longer to get the admin done post the 3 year period.
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    Default Re: Tax

    i think the long and short of it is don't trust corporate sa. Never invest in SA retirement schemes, and it is better to get your cash out the country now, rather than take any small tax break from an investment in a retirement scheme which the government wants to steal anyway.

    Keep every cent you have away from thieving corporates and their ANC bedfellows.

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    Default Re: Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by stephenplumb View Post
    i think the long and short of it is don't trust corporate sa. Never invest in SA retirement schemes, and it is better to get your cash out the country now, rather than take any small tax break from an investment in a retirement scheme which the government wants to steal anyway.

    Keep every cent you have away from thieving corporates and their ANC bedfellows.
    How exactly do you keep money away from corporates? The only way I can think is cash under the pillow or Kruger rands in the vault.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephenplumb View Post
    i think the long and short of it is don't trust corporate sa.
    Sorry, but I don't see how this is the essence the of the article. It's about the implications of tax changes coming 1 March and does not reference corporate SA at all. Even reading between the lines, they are not responsible for tax changes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    Sorry, but I don't see how this is the essence the of the article. It's about the implications of tax changes coming 1 March and does not reference corporate SA at all. Even reading between the lines, they are not responsible for tax changes.
    Have you asked your bank what their position is on EWC? How about your medical aid provider on their position on NHI, or your retirement company on their position on expropriation of retirement funds?

    I have, and they have all been deathly silent or actively encouraging the above ANC positions. So in essence if you give your retirement money to a corporate in SA, you are party to that legalised theft, as the victim sadly, and that is no good thing.

    I would encourage you to divest from any locally held retirement scheme and use your full annual offshore allowance to get your money out the country. From there you have options, but at least it is beyond the reach of the thieving kleptocracy running the show. There are many structures that allow you to pay minimal tax and keep SARS compliant while giving them very little. NB your returns will be measured in Hard Currency unlike in a local fund where you can see nominal returns because of currency devaluation even if you have lost in hard money terms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stephenplumb View Post
    Have you asked your bank what their position is on EWC? How about your medical aid provider on their position on NHI, or your retirement company on their position on expropriation of retirement funds?

    I have, and they have all been deathly silent or actively encouraging the above ANC positions. So in essence if you give your retirement money to a corporate in SA, you are party to that legalised theft, as the victim sadly, and that is no good thing.

    I would encourage you to divest from any locally held retirement scheme and use your full annual offshore allowance to get your money out the country. From there you have options, but at least it is beyond the reach of the thieving kleptocracy running the show. There are many structures that allow you to pay minimal tax and keep SARS compliant while giving them very little. NB your returns will be measured in Hard Currency unlike in a local fund where you can see nominal returns because of currency devaluation even if you have lost in hard money terms.
    So how does one do that? Invest your retirement funds in overseas markets?

    I'm not clued up with all this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephenplumb View Post
    Have you asked your bank what their position is on EWC? How about your medical aid provider on their position on NHI, or your retirement company on their position on expropriation of retirement funds?

    I have, and they have all been deathly silent or actively encouraging the above ANC positions. So in essence if you give your retirement money to a corporate in SA, you are party to that legalised theft, as the victim sadly, and that is no good thing.

    I would encourage you to divest from any locally held retirement scheme and use your full annual offshore allowance to get your money out the country. From there you have options, but at least it is beyond the reach of the thieving kleptocracy running the show. There are many structures that allow you to pay minimal tax and keep SARS compliant while giving them very little. NB your returns will be measured in Hard Currency unlike in a local fund where you can see nominal returns because of currency devaluation even if you have lost in hard money terms.
    Two questions:

    1. How do you keep your investments away from corporates like you recommend in your first post?

    2. How is this in any way the "long and short" of the article like you suggest?
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    Quote Originally Posted by IcePick88 View Post
    So how does one do that? Invest your retirement funds in overseas markets?

    I'm not clued up with all this.
    Your retirement fund is a local investment which can invest in overseas portfolios (up to 30%). What Stephen is suggesting is physically moving your money (up to the R1m per annum allowance) overseas (but still keeping it away from corporates somehow).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    Two questions:

    1. How do you keep your investments away from corporates like you recommend in your first post?

    2. How is this in any way the "long and short" of the article like you suggest?
    The article makes it clear that any wealth that you leave within the possible control of this countries kleptocratic government will be stolen directly or eroded in value.

    The corporates as mentioned have the financial muscle to act and tell the government not to embark on a path of further financial suicide, but they all choose to toe the line and agree with policies like prescribes assets, NHI, etc as discussed.

    You have a choice to offshore many of these services to corporates that are not accountable to the local laws and rules.

    Basically we should all have been listening to magnus heystek for years, who has been advising his customers to get all their loot out of the country as fast and as completely as possible.

    If you keep your wealth in this country, Frog Boiler will steal it all, legally mind you, with selections of taxes, and other schemes. He has said all this before, and all you need to do is believe what he has told you he plans on doing. Nothing has changed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stephenplumb View Post
    The article makes it clear that any wealth that you leave within the possible control of this countries kleptocratic government will be stolen directly or eroded in value.
    No it doesn't, not even close. Please don't sell your personal views as fact from a credible article.

    Quote Originally Posted by stephenplumb View Post
    The corporates as mentioned have the financial muscle to act and tell the government not to embark on a path of further financial suicide, but they all choose to toe the line and agree with policies like prescribes assets, NHI, etc as discussed.
    No they don't. Do you really believe policymakers will bow to pressure from corporates? Corporates have no influence over them whatsoever. Again, this has no relation to the article posted.

    Quote Originally Posted by stephenplumb View Post

    You have a choice to offshore many of these services to corporates that are not accountable to the local laws and rules.
    But they are still corporates and you advised avoiding all corporates. And as long as you remain in SA, your overseas investments are subject to SA tax.

    Quote Originally Posted by stephenplumb View Post

    Basically we should all have been listening to magnus heystek for years, who has been advising his customers to get all their loot out of the country as fast and as completely as possible.

    If you keep your wealth in this country, Frog Boiler will steal it all, legally mind you, with selections of taxes, and other schemes. He has said all this before, and all you need to do is believe what he has told you he plans on doing. Nothing has changed.
    I'm not going to argue this point as there certainly are benefits investing overseas but it is dangerous to advise people to take their retirement benefits in cash and pay a massive portion in tax in order to avoid tax in future and then invest it overseas where you will pay more tax on it and, unless you emigrate, the SA government will tax it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    How exactly do you keep money away from corporates? The only way I can think is cash under the pillow or Kruger rands in the vault.
    you can keep digital dollars ( stablecoins) on a exchange wallet.

    if you open a luno account, transfer ZAR into it, purchase dollar stablecoin ( no exchange commission small transaction fee) transaction is immediate.

    Once you have the $ equivalent in stablecoin, you can send it to any exchange wallet in an instant globally, some are now linked to paypal, visa and master card for Point of sales purchasing like you would with a swipe card or draw cash at a ATM

    Google Defi ( decentralized finance) for more information.


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    Default Re: Tax

    Stephen, i agree:As you said below.
    Basically we should all have been listening to magnus heystek for years, who has been advising his customers to get all their loot out of the country as fast and as completely as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    Your retirement fund is a local investment which can invest in overseas portfolios (up to 30%). What Stephen is suggesting is physically moving your money (up to the R1m per annum allowance) overseas (but still keeping it away from corporates somehow).
    I will speak to my financial advisor and see what he suggests. Thx.
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    So to the people who might know how. How best to invest offshore. Must you have a offshore bank account. Have funds in there which pays the offshore RA, tax free savings, unit trust etc.. from that account? If as suggested you max your local RA offshore allowance, can our gumvernmunt still oneday take your hard earned savings? It seems all the brokers / advisors, phones are ringing off the hook, everyone is asking the same questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    No it doesn't, not even close. Please don't sell your personal views as fact from a credible article.



    No they don't. Do you really believe policymakers will bow to pressure from corporates? Corporates have no influence over them whatsoever. Again, this has no relation to the article posted.



    But they are still corporates and you advised avoiding all corporates. And as long as you remain in SA, your overseas investments are subject to SA tax.



    I'm not going to argue this point as there certainly are benefits investing overseas but it is dangerous to advise people to take their retirement benefits in cash and pay a massive portion in tax in order to avoid tax in future and then invest it overseas where you will pay more tax on it and, unless you emigrate, the SA government will tax it.
    You are entitled to your belief. If you have not seen your wealth eroded under this government then good for you.
    I have, and I interpret the article in light of world events, and what I have seen. This country is out of money, and out of options. They are seeing huge amounts of HNWI leave the country and take their money with them. They have been encouraging this for years, just without realising that there are financial consequences to encouraging them to leave.

    Now they have realised that pensions is the last pot of money that has not been stolen, and this is the current target of acquisitiveness. This has not been hidden from view and stealing the pension cash pot has been mentioned by the ANC for years now. Reducing the size of this pot by having people emigrating means there is less to steal.

    Corporates manage this pot. They do have a strong voice and some, (very few,) have stood up and told the government that they are on a sucicidal path. Neal Froneman comes to mind, and that chappie from the chamber of mines. For the most part, however they have been deafening in their silence. So you have a choice to support these corporates, or offshore your money to other corporates more aligned with your beliefs. (Perhaps you want to give all your money to the ANC - so I should not make assumptions on your motives or intentions.) I am not against corporates per se. Only the ones that have no interest in protecting the investments of their clients.

    As for investments, there are many structures that can be considered outside the boarders of this country. Companies are not people and are taxed differently. Trusts are treated differently. So many options that can ensure wealth preservation legally beyond our borders.

    Regarding advice. I think people need to make these decisions for themselves. I have always firmly believed that people are primarily responsible for themselves and should bear the full consequences of their decisions. Whether that is voting for a bad government, or whatever else that may entail. I have seen colleagues USD accounts moved into lebanese pounds, I have seen the Zimbos do the same just next door. I have seen many countries unable to process transactions because the central bank cannot afford to remit the hard currency. SA is very much on that path. You can choose to ignore that, or you can choose to plan for it.

    If I was close to retirement, I would still be thinking of moving every cent i could, out the country. If I was younger, i would rather not take advantage of the TAX break and take the money out the country rather than get a nominal RA tax advantage to invest in a local annuity or scheme which has performed terribly for over a decade now. In fact my wife's advisor has been doing this for years, as he too feels the tax advantage is not enough to justify the risk of locally held assets. Actually if I was younger I would be getting out!

    That is my thinking based on how I see the country moving forward. I am not advising anyone as I am not FICA registered, but I do look closely at current events, and I make my plans on that basis. By the way, I am also very pessimistic on the USD, given the spending, and the massive increase in spending that Biden is planning. The US debt is unsustainable and I see the USD outlook being very bleak in the short term. Again this is my outlook and my plan. Every individual has their own risk appetite, and must make informed decisions based on their own situation and assessment.

    Again to quote Magus, there are two types of Zimbabweans. Those who had wealth out the country and those that are destitute.

    Mostly, believe what the ANC tell you. They have not hidden any of their plans, and as long as they hold the reigns of power, we will continue down the path of a typical failed African state. Cyril has made his plan to tax whites into oblivion very plain, and he has not deviated from that. It is all part of the National Democratic Revolution. Frankly I take all of this from this article, seen in the context of the ANC's stated agenda, public facing documents, and track record.

    You are very welcome to view it differently, and act accordingly, as is every individual.

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    Default Re: Tax

    Bitcoin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stephenplumb View Post
    You are entitled to your belief. If you have not seen your wealth eroded under this government then good for you.
    I have, and I interpret the article in light of world events, and what I have seen. This country is out of money, and out of options. They are seeing huge amounts of HNWI leave the country and take their money with them. They have been encouraging this for years, just without realising that there are financial consequences to encouraging them to leave.

    Now they have realised that pensions is the last pot of money that has not been stolen, and this is the current target of acquisitiveness. This has not been hidden from view and stealing the pension cash pot has been mentioned by the ANC for years now. Reducing the size of this pot by having people emigrating means there is less to steal.

    Corporates manage this pot. They do have a strong voice and some, (very few,) have stood up and told the government that they are on a sucicidal path. Neal Froneman comes to mind, and that chappie from the chamber of mines. For the most part, however they have been deafening in their silence. So you have a choice to support these corporates, or offshore your money to other corporates more aligned with your beliefs. (Perhaps you want to give all your money to the ANC - so I should not make assumptions on your motives or intentions.) I am not against corporates per se. Only the ones that have no interest in protecting the investments of their clients.

    As for investments, there are many structures that can be considered outside the boarders of this country. Companies are not people and are taxed differently. Trusts are treated differently. So many options that can ensure wealth preservation legally beyond our borders.

    Regarding advice. I think people need to make these decisions for themselves. I have always firmly believed that people are primarily responsible for themselves and should bear the full consequences of their decisions. Whether that is voting for a bad government, or whatever else that may entail. I have seen colleagues USD accounts moved into lebanese pounds, I have seen the Zimbos do the same just next door. I have seen many countries unable to process transactions because the central bank cannot afford to remit the hard currency. SA is very much on that path. You can choose to ignore that, or you can choose to plan for it.

    If I was close to retirement, I would still be thinking of moving every cent i could, out the country. If I was younger, i would rather not take advantage of the TAX break and take the money out the country rather than get a nominal RA tax advantage to invest in a local annuity or scheme which has performed terribly for over a decade now. In fact my wife's advisor has been doing this for years, as he too feels the tax advantage is not enough to justify the risk of locally held assets. Actually if I was younger I would be getting out!

    That is my thinking based on how I see the country moving forward. I am not advising anyone as I am not FICA registered, but I do look closely at current events, and I make my plans on that basis. By the way, I am also very pessimistic on the USD, given the spending, and the massive increase in spending that Biden is planning. The US debt is unsustainable and I see the USD outlook being very bleak in the short term. Again this is my outlook and my plan. Every individual has their own risk appetite, and must make informed decisions based on their own situation and assessment.

    Again to quote Magus, there are two types of Zimbabweans. Those who had wealth out the country and those that are destitute.

    Mostly, believe what the ANC tell you. They have not hidden any of their plans, and as long as they hold the reigns of power, we will continue down the path of a typical failed African state. Cyril has made his plan to tax whites into oblivion very plain, and he has not deviated from that. It is all part of the National Democratic Revolution. Frankly I take all of this from this article, seen in the context of the ANC's stated agenda, public facing documents, and track record.

    You are very welcome to view it differently, and act accordingly, as is every individual.
    I'm not arguing your view and am myself very concerned about the path this country finds itself on. What I am arguing is the article does not say "don't trust corporate SA" or "it is better to get your cash out the country now".
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  25. #19
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    Default Re: Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by stephenplumb View Post
    You are entitled to your belief. If you have not seen your wealth eroded under this government then good for you.
    I have, and I interpret the article in light of world events, and what I have seen. This country is out of money, and out of options. They are seeing huge amounts of HNWI leave the country and take their money with them. They have been encouraging this for years, just without realising that there are financial consequences to encouraging them to leave.

    Now they have realised that pensions is the last pot of money that has not been stolen, and this is the current target of acquisitiveness. This has not been hidden from view and stealing the pension cash pot has been mentioned by the ANC for years now. Reducing the size of this pot by having people emigrating means there is less to steal.

    Corporates manage this pot. They do have a strong voice and some, (very few,) have stood up and told the government that they are on a sucicidal path. Neal Froneman comes to mind, and that chappie from the chamber of mines. For the most part, however they have been deafening in their silence. So you have a choice to support these corporates, or offshore your money to other corporates more aligned with your beliefs. (Perhaps you want to give all your money to the ANC - so I should not make assumptions on your motives or intentions.) I am not against corporates per se. Only the ones that have no interest in protecting the investments of their clients.

    As for investments, there are many structures that can be considered outside the boarders of this country. Companies are not people and are taxed differently. Trusts are treated differently. So many options that can ensure wealth preservation legally beyond our borders.

    Regarding advice. I think people need to make these decisions for themselves. I have always firmly believed that people are primarily responsible for themselves and should bear the full consequences of their decisions. Whether that is voting for a bad government, or whatever else that may entail. I have seen colleagues USD accounts moved into lebanese pounds, I have seen the Zimbos do the same just next door. I have seen many countries unable to process transactions because the central bank cannot afford to remit the hard currency. SA is very much on that path. You can choose to ignore that, or you can choose to plan for it.

    If I was close to retirement, I would still be thinking of moving every cent i could, out the country. If I was younger, i would rather not take advantage of the TAX break and take the money out the country rather than get a nominal RA tax advantage to invest in a local annuity or scheme which has performed terribly for over a decade now. In fact my wife's advisor has been doing this for years, as he too feels the tax advantage is not enough to justify the risk of locally held assets. Actually if I was younger I would be getting out!

    That is my thinking based on how I see the country moving forward. I am not advising anyone as I am not FICA registered, but I do look closely at current events, and I make my plans on that basis. By the way, I am also very pessimistic on the USD, given the spending, and the massive increase in spending that Biden is planning. The US debt is unsustainable and I see the USD outlook being very bleak in the short term. Again this is my outlook and my plan. Every individual has their own risk appetite, and must make informed decisions based on their own situation and assessment.

    Again to quote Magus, there are two types of Zimbabweans. Those who had wealth out the country and those that are destitute.

    Mostly, believe what the ANC tell you. They have not hidden any of their plans, and as long as they hold the reigns of power, we will continue down the path of a typical failed African state. Cyril has made his plan to tax whites into oblivion very plain, and he has not deviated from that. It is all part of the National Democratic Revolution. Frankly I take all of this from this article, seen in the context of the ANC's stated agenda, public facing documents, and track record.

    You are very welcome to view it differently, and act accordingly, as is every individual.


    Sad but reality bites.

    Difficult decisions in difficult times, we all love SA and most would not leave, but the future can look very scary depending on how honest you want to be with yourself

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    Default Re: Tax

    Quote Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
    I'm not arguing your view and am myself very concerned about the path this country finds itself on. What I am arguing is the article does not say "don't trust corporate SA" or "it is better to get your cash out the country now".
    If I recall you are based in the western Cape, which feels like another country to me when I am there. Here in G Town we see the decay daily so perhaps the in-my-face decay makes me more cynical.

    You are right however, as I am probably (nay definitely) using a fair amount of "poetic license" in my interpretation of the story. Luckily I have not invested a cent in retirement schemes here in SA for a few years now, but I am also battling to get what little I have out. I have asked FNB and Discovery on multiple occasions to give me their unambiguous statement on EWC and NHI respectively and am still hearing crickets. So yes, I am very pissed with corporates that loose their voices when faced with architecting their own demise. I certainly don't hate corporates in general.

    Anyway, lets hope that in the next local elections, ANC looses many more seats, towns and metros. Some sort of semi stable coallition of parties gains control without the mad hatters of Red Berret Fame. Dare we even hope for another province to be ripped from the bosom of the ANC soon? Then the ANC will have less patronage to dispense and may even start to rethink some of their nuttier ideas.

    We seem to be at the beggining of a commodities boom and SA is lagging at the bottom of the favoured mining destinations, which could really help drag us out of a tight spot if it were better managed.

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