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  1. #1
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    Default Great Civilizations, major Empires

    Taking into account that great empires, needed a means of law, and rule, for them to be controlled.
    And that this created a common ideology, and to a great extent unity... then civility, and thus civilizations were formed. And by default this created a nation/empirical culture.

    And in these structures we have all the great world advancements, in arts, tech and engineering, even in philosophy...

    I have the following questions:

    If the world's ideology is leaning to the liberal side, and one nation's (not race) superiority over another, is frowned apon, will there ever be room for a civilization, or for "growth" in the sense of an advanced culture?

    Or is the hope that the world will be one unit, with unguided or unforced advancement, with random, free growth?
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Great Civilizations, major Empires

    This question is discussed and written extensively in Sci-Fi literature. I am sure it is studied by scientists.

    There are issues. If the society doesn't have external challenges it will stagnate and die. Totally peaceful society, even ultra high tech, will be destroyed if they do not yield. Only question is if there is a place to go or more like for how long time such place is available. Militarily strong will also lose. There is always one that is stronger, society rottens from inside... These and other cases can be named and read from the history books.

    Humanity as we know is on one planet. It will unite only under external thread and even that is not guaranteed. My bet is that it would be less than 50% change.
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    Default Re: Great Civilizations, major Empires

    OOOH Stirring the pot and the brain juices this morning Andrew.

    The picture I see is the difference between a manicured garden and a huge wild baobab tree. We live in a society where anyone that stands higher gets cut down and this makes every one equal "like a beautifully trimmed hedge" but if you stand out you mess up that picture of perfection.

    You will never grow a massive 1000 year old tree in a garden where all tree are kept at the same height.

    My opinion not proven.
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    Default Re: Great Civilizations, major Empires

    The two catalysts to western civilisation in my opinion:

    1. Long cold winters - which forced people to prepare and think ahead. It also forced them to settle for a period of the year. This gave them time to think about art, improvements to tools, building and society etc.

    2. The Pig: Takes up little space, doesnt require grazing land, can be kept inside during winter, can be fed all sorts and matures for slaughter quickly.
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    Default Re: Great Civilizations, major Empires

    The highest average IQ in the world today is in the direction of China. But in the past that area was the cold area

    You can see this cold weather issue today even within single countries. Not to offend too many I will not list them

    Quote Originally Posted by Estee View Post
    The two catalysts to western civilisation in my opinion:

    1. Long cold winters - which forced people to prepare and think ahead. It also forced them to settle for a period of the year. This gave them time to think about art, improvements to tools, building and society etc.

    2. The Pig: Takes up little space, doesnt require grazing land, can be kept inside during winter, can be fed all sorts and matures for slaughter quickly.
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    Default Re: Great Civilizations, major Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Estee View Post
    The two catalysts to western civilisation in my opinion:

    1. Long cold winters - which forced people to prepare and think ahead. It also forced them to settle for a period of the year. This gave them time to think about art, improvements to tools, building and society etc.

    2. The Pig: Takes up little space, doesnt require grazing land, can be kept inside during winter, can be fed all sorts and matures for slaughter quickly.
    So, what you are saying is that if, you have your own little warm home, and a pig.. your are sorted, and that you do not need a civilized driven empire to grow an advanced culture?
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    Default Re: Great Civilizations, major Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Estee View Post
    The two catalysts to western civilisation in my opinion:

    1. Long cold winters - which forced people to prepare and think ahead. It also forced them to settle for a period of the year. This gave them time to think about art, improvements to tools, building and society etc.

    2. The Pig: Takes up little space, doesnt require grazing land, can be kept inside during winter, can be fed all sorts and matures for slaughter quickly.

    So plenty of free time in the fresh air and plenty of meat is the key to a civilised life.

    Which is what I have been preaching all along ...

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    Default Re: Great Civilizations, major Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by tashtego9 View Post
    So plenty of free time in the fresh air and plenty of meat is the key to a civilised life.

    Which is what I have been preaching all along ...
    There is a difference between a civilized life and a civilization.
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    Default Re: Great Civilizations, major Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko View Post
    The highest average IQ in the world today is in the direction of China. But in the past that area was the cold area

    You can see this cold weather issue today even within single countries. Not to offend too many I will not list them
    The Ashkenazi Jews have the highest average IQ.

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    Default Re: Great Civilizations, major Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehog View Post
    There is a difference between a civilized life and a civilization.
    Which of these preceded the other?
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    Default Re: Great Civilizations, major Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Olyfboer View Post
    The Ashkenazi Jews have the highest average IQ.
    I had not seen this. I assume it is one of those controversial issues not to be spoken. I found This:
    https://web.mit.edu/fustflum/documen...jbiosocsci.pdf

    Busy reading.

    Edit: Controversial study but interesting. If taken true, explains a lot.
    Last edited by Jouko; 2021/01/22 at 11:08 AM.
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    Default Re: Great Civilizations, major Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko View Post
    I had not seen this. I assume it is one of those controversial issues not to be spoken. I found This:
    https://web.mit.edu/fustflum/documen...jbiosocsci.pdf

    Busy reading.
    It's also controversial and deemed "scientific/systemic racism" to suggest that IQ is genetic despite many scientific peer reviewed papers showing it to be so.

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    Default Re: Great Civilizations, major Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Olyfboer View Post
    The Ashkenazi Jews have the highest average IQ.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko View Post
    I had not seen this. I assume it is one of those controversial issues not to be spoken. I found This:
    https://web.mit.edu/fustflum/documen...jbiosocsci.pdf

    Busy reading.
    Quote Originally Posted by Olyfboer View Post
    It's also controversial and deemed "scientific/systemic racism" to suggest that IQ is genetic despite many scientific peer reviewed papers showing it to be so.

    I have no idea where we started going into race again.. or why, or why IQ was even brought into this conversation.. I believe the inkas, the greeks, the romans all had stupid people...
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    Default Re: Great Civilizations, major Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehog View Post
    I have no idea where we started going into race again.. or why, or why IQ was even brought into this conversation.. I believe the inkas, the greeks, the romans all had stupid people...
    But the Inkas, Greeks and Romans didn't put the stupid people in leader/power positions
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    Default Re: Great Civilizations, major Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by JCMostert View Post
    But the Inkas, Greeks and Romans didn't put the stupid people in leader/power positions
    Well they must have because they all eventually faded away or their empires fell..

    I for one would not call some of the royal families who ruled over these empires as very intelligent...

    My point was that it is rather difficult to create a civilized community without a common drive or goal, and that innovation requires motivation for success in some goal or drive to be the best as a nation or culture

    Without the Egyptian drive to rule all they see, they would have been nothing but crocodile farmers/food..
    Without the simple lust for power from the Persians...
    Without the wish for peace by the Greek tribes...
    Without the wish for glory from the Romans...
    Without the hunt for wealth by the Spanish... the English and the French.
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    Default Re: Great Civilizations, major Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehog View Post
    I have no idea where we started going into race again.. or why, or why IQ was even brought into this conversation.. I believe the inkas, the greeks, the romans all had stupid people...
    There is no way that the Inca, Greek or Romans were stupid people. One just looks at the development of their civilizations to realise that. They collapsed for two main reasons;
    - the first reason the same that many current "empires" are collapsing - the birth of the politician and the willingness of other people to leave the running of environments to people that had nothing but the gift of the gab, but were strtegically astute in terms of human behaviour (oddly, JZ is a good example).
    - the second is military might - which collapsed the more cerebral "civilisations"
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    Default Re: Great Civilizations, major Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by gavpike View Post
    There is no way that the Inca, Greek or Romans were stupid people. One just looks at the development of their civilizations to realise that. They collapsed for two main reasons;
    - the first reason the same that many current "empires" are collapsing - the birth of the politician and the willingness of other people to leave the running of environments to people that had nothing but the gift of the gab, but were strtegically astute in terms of human behaviour (oddly, JZ is a good example).
    - the second is military might - which collapsed the more cerebral "civilisations"
    I said they had stupid people, not that they were stupid people...

    Any nation has an amount of stupid people..

    The rest of your post I agree with..
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    Default Re: Great Civilizations, major Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by gavpike View Post
    There is no way that the Inca, Greek or Romans were stupid people. One just looks at the development of their civilizations to realise that. They collapsed for two main reasons;
    - the first reason the same that many current "empires" are collapsing - the birth of the politician and the willingness of other people to leave the running of environments to people that had nothing but the gift of the gab, but were strtegically astute in terms of human behaviour (oddly, JZ is a good example).
    - the second is military might - which collapsed the more cerebral "civilisations"
    I think you have it here Gav. The Romans went from 20 years national service to paying mercenaries for their protection. The benefits of Empire led to a good life which wasnt conducive to the hardships of Empire building.
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    Default Re: Great Civilizations, major Empires

    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehog View Post
    I have no idea where we started going into race again.. or why, or why IQ was even brought into this conversation.. I believe the inkas, the greeks, the romans all had stupid people...
    Who mentioned race? A higher median IQ is required for a civilisation to flourish. The Incas, Greeks and Romans all had stupid people and geniuses as outliers but a higher IQ in the median range of the normal distribution curve.

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    Default Re: Great Civilizations, major Empires

    I think Searcher on the other fred sums it up as civilisations and empires appear to be cyclical, the duration of the cycle varying.

    So to answer your question; its possible that the liberalisation of a country or civilisation will lead to its waning and demise while those who have greater unity, focus and ''harder'' societies, like China, will ascend to fill their place.

    “Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.”
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