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  1. #21
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    @ghouwens sent me this link to watch. Sometimes you need to stand still and become quiet in the presence of a master ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvPr4ldiJRY

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  3. #22
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by mygoggie View Post
    @ghouwens sent me this link to watch. Sometimes you need to stand still and become quiet in the presence of a master ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvPr4ldiJRY
    Tinning Paste or tinning powder I told you
    It is not what you buy its what you build.

  4. #23
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Amazing- he makes it look so easy...

  5. #24
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Brain gave me a warning last night: "Get a grip on round things"

    This morning I finally figured it out. I will need to hold the round casing steady and in a horisontal orientation while I am tinning it. For that I will need some kind of clamping device.

    Well let me make some form of pliers ...

    I cut some flat bar to length. No, I did not plan anything. This is a use your gut measurement exercise. A measure once and cut twice one ...






    I know that when you bend steel the final radius will always be a bit larger than the object you bent it over. This is some kind of wise man's rule. Alas I have no idea what his name is or was....

    So listening to the words of this wise man I selected a socket which has a smaller diameter compared to the casing. I then rolled the socket along the end of the flat bar, well, it is fun ain't it? Roll, roll, roll the boat ashore ... NO, now we are somehow on a wrong LP track here ...





    With the half round length of the socket rolled out and marked I bent the two flat bars.






    Then onto merrily rolling along again. Roll, roll, roll the bar along ...










    Aha, there we are, all rolled along into shape! Sommer bouf sides done!






    Somehow the two sections of my handy new clamp will have to swivel. So I added a twist to the plot.






    And just to make sure it is straight I gave the story another twist.






    Me thinks me can pulls a thorn from an elephant's foot with this!






    One jaw had a too long in the tooth problem so I cutted it sommer shorter.






    A rivet from the million gazillion drawers I bought from the retired MG guy and I think we have a swiveling elephant thorn puller taking shape!






    Holes drilled and a test fit shows it could work ...






    Rounding the ends of the handles.






    Cleaned and ready for some phosphoric acid.






    A bit of phosphoric acid added as a night cap and time to let the new creation sleep a bit.






    Tomorrow we will make a fire, braai and heat a rivet. Then I can also add some carbon to the steel and get it a bit more stronger! There always is a reason to braai! oops, sorry uncle C.


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  7. #25
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Mygoggie you have some great handskills. I saw a you tube video of a guy tinning and pouring a white metal bush just like yours . But I didnt save it and cant find it again. But he used brass or pbronze as the outer casing and then machined the ID to size . But he didnt oil groove it. As a plumber who solders alot Ive never successfully soldered to steel pipe or galvanized pipe successfully.

    Its going to be hard to successfully case harden that pliers .Ive tried this in a home environment using a furnace and sorrounding the metal with crushed charcoal.I let it soak for 12 hours but when I took it to bohler and did a rockwell test it hardly got any harder.
    We did this to all our tools when I did my toolmaking apprentice and kick myself now for not paying attention.
    I have a powder in my garage made for this purpose. Heat the part to cherry red and dip it in the powder. I havent tried it as I bought the powder on an auction lot.
    I would be curious to know what its made off. We used a special muti at work for the carbon. I think it had alot of bone in it ,I would love to know.

  8. #26
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Guy B. Vergoes Houwens
    2014 LC76 4.5 V8

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  10. #27
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    @mygoggie, whilst I admire and completely understand your fun at the challenge of trying to cast your own bushes, would the easier way be to purchase over size to your needs and turn them down?

    Even if you do manage to make them, you risk your drivetrain as it will be had to work out if the quality of your bushing is ok.
    Andrew to all.

  11. #28
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by kamanya View Post
    @mygoggie, whilst I admire and completely understand your fun at the challenge of trying to cast your own bushes, would the easier way be to purchase over size to your needs and turn them down?

    Even if you do manage to make them, you risk your drivetrain as it will be had to work out if the quality of your bushing is ok.
    I would buy any time if you can find such a supplier for me in SA. I have spent three months investigating every option and possible supplier. I could not find a solution. Give it a shot and let me know!

  12. #29
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by plunger View Post
    Mygoggie you have some great handskills. I saw a you tube video of a guy tinning and pouring a white metal bush just like yours . But I didnt save it and cant find it again. But he used brass or pbronze as the outer casing and then machined the ID to size . But he didnt oil groove it. As a plumber who solders alot Ive never successfully soldered to steel pipe or galvanized pipe successfully.
    You see, if you battle, then it is not as simple ... I think I will get it done. If not the next step is to machine some brass to size for the casing. Yea, the ID will be machined to exact size 5/100mm clearance with reference to the splined sleeve that runs in the bush.

    Quote Originally Posted by plunger View Post
    Its going to be hard to successfully case harden that pliers .Ive tried this in a home environment using a furnace and sorrounding the metal with crushed charcoal.I let it soak for 12 hours but when I took it to bohler and did a rockwell test it hardly got any harder.
    We did this to all our tools when I did my toolmaking apprentice and kick myself now for not paying attention.
    I have a powder in my garage made for this purpose. Heat the part to cherry red and dip it in the powder. I havent tried it as I bought the powder on an auction lot.
    I would be curious to know what its made off. We used a special muti at work for the carbon. I think it had alot of bone in it ,I would love to know.
    Now why did you ever never not pay attention ....

    Yeah, bone meal is the way to go and then get the oxygen out of the way. I am going the flour and powdered antracite route. Let's see.

  13. #30
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by ghouwens View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaeNvQEBa2U
    Thanks for this @ghouwens. Good to see that I am on the correct track. I will have to add the watering circuit. I see my pliers are not far off the mark!

  14. #31
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Reset, please, for the dummy .

    When the Star Wars movie series started, the technology did not exist within CGI to realistically portray the special effects, so Spielberg started of with No 4 in the series. Only when this technology had improved sufficiently a decade or so later, he made 1 - 3.

    Here we now have the exact opposite: Mitsubishi uses white metal bearings in a "modernish" engine when proper bearings had been invented quite a bit previously.

    I would expect to find these type of bearings in Stevenson's Rocket or maybe still a Lister or Vaaljapie engine. But really, in a 20th/21st century automobile?

    The only reason I can think of is that they hung on to an existing housing for too long, but the size of the relevant shaft had since progressively increased to the point that there was now no more space for the two races plus balls/rollers of a standard bearing and that they had to use something more compact.

    Please explain.
    Last edited by JJJ; 2021/01/22 at 11:00 AM.
    If my post insulted you, wonder where the smiley went .

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  15. #32
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by JJJ View Post
    Reset, please, for the dummy .

    When the Star Wars movie series started, the technology did not exist within CGI to realistically portray the special effects, so Spielberg started of with No 4 in the series. Only when this technology had improved sufficiently a decade or so later, he made 1 - 3.

    Here we now have the exact opposite: Mitsibushi uses white metal bearings in a "modernish" engine when proper bearings had been invented quite a bit previously.

    I would expect to find these type of bearings in Stevenson's Rocket or maybe still a Lister or Vaaljapie engine. But really, in a 20th/21st century automobile?

    The only reason I can think of is that they hung on to an existing housing for too long, but the size of the relevant shaft had since progressively increased to the point that there was now no more space for the two races plus balls/rollers of a standard bearing and that they had to use something more compact.

    Please explain.
    And what exactly do you think lines the bigend and crank bearings in your modern 21st century 180Kw Volvo XC60 T5?
    Last edited by ghouwens; 2021/01/22 at 09:46 AM.
    Guy B. Vergoes Houwens
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  17. #33
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by ghouwens View Post
    And what exactly do you think lines the bigend and crank bearings in your modern 21st century 180Kw Volvo XC60 T5?
    Or the latest Ferrari or Audi or BMW all use white metal bearings in the bigend and main bearings.

    In the Pajero's case it is the Transfer Case's output sleeve that drive the propshaft that needs to be supported yet handle high RPM and vibration. Needle bearings in this location actually exist but reading up on this proved to be prone to early failure. Like I said, I investigated all options ...
    Last edited by mygoggie; 2021/01/22 at 10:06 AM.

  18. #34
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by ghouwens View Post
    And what exactly do you think lines the bigend and crank bearings in your modern 21st century 180Kw Volvo XC60 T5?
    As I said, for the dummy .

    But WHY?

    From a physical property/metallurgical/engineering perspective, please.

    @Mygoggie: I am not criticizing your pride and joy or questioning your decision to go the route you chose. I am curious as to why there is not something better by now, especially since it has now been pointed out everyone is still using this method.

    Or should I rather Google......
    Last edited by JJJ; 2021/01/22 at 11:24 AM. Reason: Added disclaimer :-)
    If my post insulted you, wonder where the smiley went .

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  19. #35
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    The bearings are actually "oil bearings".
    (exactly the reason why you need enough oil pressure - the two surfaces are separated by a layer of oil).
    White metal forms the surface to spread the oil.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity" - Martin Luther king Jr

    2006 VW Touareg V10 (Sold)
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  20. #36
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by JJJ View Post
    As I said, for the dummy .

    But WHY?

    From a physical property/metallurgical/engineering perspective, please.

    @Mygoggie: I am not criticizing your pride and joy or questioning your decision to go the route you chose. I am curious as to why there is not something better by now, especially since it has now been pointed out everyone is still using this method.

    Or should I rather Google......

    Price. Assembly is very quick. Tried and tested, costs big money to redesign and retool.

    Mygoggie is going through an interesting but difficult learning curve, if he had someone to show him it would have only been a paragraph or two. But this way we can all learn something, for others it's a refresher session. It's too easy to give up and scrap the part. The labour and costs involved does not justify it but the pride and satisfaction afterwards is everything. It's always the first one that is an issue, that's how we learn and perfect our craft.

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  22. #37
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by HobieDave View Post
    Price. Assembly is very quick. Tried and tested, costs big money to redesign and retool.

    Mygoggie is going through an interesting but difficult learning curve, if he had someone to show him it would have only been a paragraph or two. But this way we can all learn something, for others it's a refresher session. It's too easy to give up and scrap the part. The labour and costs involved does not justify it but the pride and satisfaction afterwards is everything. It's always the first one that is an issue, that's how we learn and perfect our craft.
    Thanks!

    Your second paragraph describes exactly why I am following this thread, to see how he does it. It takes a certain "stubbornness" to persevere with these things - Plan A, Plan B, Plan n - which I admire. If it was not for that, we would either still be in the dark ages or dead.

    Also it illustrates the value of templates, tooling and jigs - hands-on stuff - which sometimes are more innovative than the job itself.
    If my post insulted you, wonder where the smiley went .

    Johnie
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    180kW/350Nm (1500 - 4800 rpm)

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  24. #38
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Mr Triple J ... the main reason why white metal is used is that roller, needle or for that matter any other kind of rolling bearing is not good at handling high frequency cyclic loads.

    White metal is for the simple reason that it basically consist of two components. Hard crystals to give load bearing area and soft smearing material that smears and smooths the bearing surface whole time. This means any dings that the cyclic loading could have formed is almost immediately smeared level again. Thus the soft component acts as a shock absorber and filler and also a very low friction surface.

    Add oils to the mix and the white metal allows this to penetrate into the micro pores in the bearing creating a very thin auto oiled bearing film. Add copper in the mix and the copper also creates some more slip, something like copper slip grease.

    The bearing in my case is a bush which is press fit into a housing and the machine to specification to allow the vibrating propshaft to be supported.You can also read the wiki which gives you a very good overview.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babbitt_(alloy)

    I hope this clear the matter a tiny bit up for you.
    Last edited by mygoggie; 2021/01/22 at 11:57 AM.

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  26. #39
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by HobieDave View Post
    Mygoggie is going through an interesting but difficult learning curve, if he had someone to show him it would have only been a paragraph or two. But this way we can all learn something, for others it's a refresher session. It's too easy to give up and scrap the part. The labour and costs involved does not justify it but the pride and satisfaction afterwards is everything. It's always the first one that is an issue, that's how we learn and perfect our craft.
    Yep, add to this that there is a need to make a part that is unobtanium ...

    I love a challenge and this is a minor one, so it is actually great fun.

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  28. #40
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by ghouwens View Post
    Thats the video.

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