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  1. #41
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    I have watched a few videos and read a lot of old school articles and the one thing I actually forgot about is the quick cooling of the whole clamp and bush once the metal has been cast and has settled in.

    The video @ghouwens sent me reminded me again of this critical piece of equipment I still need to make.

    I scrounged around my garage and plundered the copper plumbing bin. I think these parts can be made into something working and worthwhile after they were left as misfits and off-casts in my various projects.






    First step was to close the end of the piece of pipe that will get the holes. Simply hammer it flat and bend the flat piece over and hammer it flat again.






    Bend it over again and hammer it flat again. No water will leak from this now!






    The pipes and valves assembled. I still need to connect the shiny end piece. I will have to solder it on. However I did enlarge the shiny end piece a lot when I made it for use in another project.






    Soldering it into position. This went quickly as I am used to soldering copper.






    In the end the enlarged portion was too big and the solder kept running from the gap between the two pipes. So I cut the enlarged section off, annealed the copper and hammered a ball peen hammer's end into the pipe. Perfect slide fit this time. Oh well the solder from the previous soldering attempt is visible but I seriously doubt if this will affect the function of the pipe.

    Holes marked out and punched.






    Holes drilled and counter sunk.






    Viola!! It works! Thar she blows!






    Testing it for a functioning fit showed no real issues. Maybe the hose could be in my way but I can just turn everything through ninety degrees.






    The wind is blowing way too hard to make a hot fire, so the case hardening process of the pliers will have to wait!




    Last edited by mygoggie; 2021/01/23 at 05:26 PM. Reason: I love editing! ;-)

  2. #42
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Another video which I enjoyed a lot.


  3. #43
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Just wondering out loud why you feel the pliers need case-hardening?
    Beat-up rat rod of a '96 Nissan Patrol that bears the evidence of many wonderful adventures (and a few stupid indiscretions).

  4. #44
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Connan View Post
    Just wondering out loud why you feel the pliers need case-hardening?
    For what I want to do ATM no need to case harden these, but for future use, yes. I always wanted to do old style case hardening so here is an opportunity to test my skills at this. Let's see what comes first ... casting or case hardening ;-)

  5. #45
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by mygoggie View Post
    For what I want to do ATM no need to case harden these, but for future use, yes. I always wanted to do old style case hardening so here is an opportunity to test my skills at this. Let's see what comes first ... casting or case hardening ;-)
    I have done a fair amount of case hardening with torch and powder. It's relatively easy to do small parts, but something like that probably requires a different technique than the one I have employed (ie heat it and shove it into the powder).

    The thing is, I don't think it is of much use in that application. In my limited experience, case hardening is great for wear resistance and lowering the friction between sliding components, but doesn't make a lot of difference to their yield strength in bending. For that, adding a shaped rib or gusset around the outside will be far more effective and probably easier.
    Beat-up rat rod of a '96 Nissan Patrol that bears the evidence of many wonderful adventures (and a few stupid indiscretions).

  6. #46
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Connan View Post
    I have done a fair amount of case hardening with torch and powder. It's relatively easy to do small parts, but something like that probably requires a different technique than the one I have employed (ie heat it and shove it into the powder).

    The thing is, I don't think it is of much use in that application. In my limited experience, case hardening is great for wear resistance and lowering the friction between sliding components, but doesn't make a lot of difference to their yield strength in bending. For that, adding a shaped rib or gusset around the outside will be far more effective and probably easier.
    Case hardening is a waste of time in this application unless Mygoggie will need about eighteen thousands attemps before he gets it right.

    I doubt it will change the modulus of elasticity in any way. Big word for a plumber. .It would be quicker welding work pads on the working part using a special rod if you really wanted a bit of toughness . But I am dying to see how to go about this.

    My attempt was to harden some quick change toolpost holders I built. I built a steel box with a lid and put the qctp into the box sorrounded by some crushed charcoal and something else,cant remember .I let it soak at about 800 plus degrees (also cant remember) and then let it cool down naturally untill cool.
    Then I heated it up again and quenched it . I didnt bother to try temper it.
    It came out looking distorted to a degree. We made all our parallels ,toolmakers vice ,v blocks and sine vices using this technique but all work surfaces were surface and cylindrically ground afterwards.

    Will I try it again. ?It is time consuming and if I could learn an efficient way would be happy. My file test showed it hardened to a degree . The rockwell tester showed I was wasting my time.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by plunger View Post
    Case hardening is a waste of time in this application unless Mygoggie will need about eighteen thousands attemps before he gets it right.

    I doubt it will change the modulus of elasticity in any way. Big word for a plumber. .It would be quicker welding work pads on the working part using a special rod if you really wanted a bit of toughness . But I am dying to see how to go about this.

    My attempt was to harden some quick change toolpost holders I built. I built a steel box with a lid and put the qctp into the box sorrounded by some crushed charcoal and something else,cant remember .I let it soak at about 800 plus degrees (also cant remember) and then let it cool down naturally untill cool.
    Then I heated it up again and quenched it . I didnt bother to try temper it.
    It came out looking distorted to a degree. We made all our parallels ,toolmakers vice ,v blocks and sine vices using this technique but all work surfaces were surface and cylindrically ground afterwards.

    Will I try it again. ?It is time consuming and if I could learn an efficient way would be happy. My file test showed it hardened to a degree . The rockwell tester showed I was wasting my time.
    Rockwell testers and such don't really show up surface hardness.
    And you are more right than you think when it comes to changing the modulus of elasticity. In fact, even through-hardened steels have similar modulus of elasticity to mild steel. Pretty much all steels, from the hardest of tool steels down to mild steel has a modulus of elasticity within about 5% (between 200 and 210mPa). What changes is the yield and ultimate tensile strenghts.

    So in effect, if you apply a load to a piece of steel, it will deform about as much as any other steel. Any steel, any load. What changes is only whether or not it comes back to the original shape/position, which depends on just how big the load was and whether or not it exceeded the yield stress of the material.

    I have case-hardened a lot of small mechanism components by heating them with a torch, shoving them into case-hardening compound (I use Casenite), maybe repeating the process, then heating again and quenching. It works well, but only for small parts.

    To ttanzlate this into larger parts, I think one would need to build a sealed box, put the parts inside and pack it densely with a carbon powder, and then stick that in a furnace. Also, I know that the guys who do coulour case hardening of firearms parts go to a lot of trouble making up parts that hold such parts so that they can't deform before doing a similar process.

    If it were me, I would leave the pliers as they are (except maybe to put a spring on them so that one doesn't need to hold them tight all the time) and find something else to case-harden.

    But everybody who knows me will tell you that I am far too lazy/impatient to go to the type of lengths Mygoggie puts into pretty much everything he does...
    Last edited by Peter Connan; 2021/01/24 at 12:31 PM.
    Beat-up rat rod of a '96 Nissan Patrol that bears the evidence of many wonderful adventures (and a few stupid indiscretions).

  8. #48
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Connan View Post
    Rockwell testers and such don't really show up surface hardness.
    And you are more right than you think when it comes to changing the modulus of elasticity. In fact, even through-hardened steels have similar modulus of elasticity to mild steel. Pretty much all steels, from the hardest of tool steels down to mild steel has a modulus of elasticity within about 5% (between 200 and 210mPa). What changes is the yield and ultimate tensile strenghts.

    So in effect, if you apply a load to a piece of steel, it will deform about as much as any other steel. Any steel, any load. What changes is only whether or not it comes back to the original shape/position, which depends on just how big the load was and whether or not it exceeded the yield stress of the material.

    I have case-hardened a lot of small mechanism components by heating them with a torch, shoving them into case-hardening compound (I use Casenite), maybe repeating the process, then heating again and quenching. It works well, but only for small parts.

    To ttanzlate this into larger parts, I think one would need to build a sealed box, put the parts inside and pack it densely with a carbon powder, and then stick that in a furnace. Also, I know that the guys who do coulour case hardening of firearms parts go to a lot of trouble making up parts that hold such parts so that they can't deform before doing a similar process.

    If it were me, I would leave the pliers as they are (except maybe to put a spring on them so that one doesn't need to hold them tight all the time) and find something else to case-harden.

    But everybody who knows me will tell you that I am far too lazy/impatient to go to the type of lengths Mygoggie puts into pretty much everything he does...
    Yes he is anal isnt he ? But then you have to admire his hand skills. He gets alot done with really basic tooling. Just imagine when his lathe is up and running. But I thought I was a procrastinator

    I now understand now why he has barrels of phosporic acid at home. He takes two years before he paints everything.

    But I religiously look every day for a feedback from Mygoggie.I get upset when he doesnt keep himself busy and do an update

    The box I made was to try prevent oxygen getting into the box while its in my furnace. I think you only get about 0.5mm penetration on a good case harden and it distorts mild steel alot so by the time you have surface ground the warp out you are left with very little hardened skin.

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  10. #49
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by mygoggie View Post
    I would buy any time if you can find such a supplier for me in SA. I have spent three months investigating every option and possible supplier. I could not find a solution. Give it a shot and let me know!
    My Brain just gave me a slap about the lughole at your question...

    A while ago, I acquired a parallel twin head Kellogg compressor that had run it's main bearings for the princely sum of nothing and in my usual fashion dived into fixing it, and in my usual fashion, another thing chanced by and the grasshopper mind took off thence-wards....But, I digress....

    GB Bearings made it into my search and I duly popped in there and chatted to a very nice gentleman who had any number of various sized bearings in stock, none of which suited my needs, much to my dismay.

    He pointed me at Federal Mogul in Joburg and said they would probably be able to help out with 1-off and automotive type bearings as they made bearings there.
    It's at that point the grashopper found a greener thing to eat and hopped off.

    In summary...Federal Mogul/GB Bearings.
    https://www.gbbearings.co.za/ContactUs.html
    Cheers,
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  11. #50
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    I had to wait a bit for Uncle Brian to machine the two new casings from the Sched 40 pipe.

    Here they are.






    Unfortunately there was a bit of misunderstanding between us and instead of testing if the Sched 40 material can be effectively tinned, Uncle Brian tinned the insides afterwards with normal solder which is a tin/lead mix.






    No problem, I will just head the surface up, wipe it clean, sand it a bit to get rid of most of the solder and recoat with the 97% tin solder. At least we know it can be effectively tinned!

    Well onto desktop work it is for me. I need to finish a major investigative design.


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  13. #51
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Well, the casing appear to be on a desk, so they do count as deskwork. Come along, then!!
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  14. #52
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    I am a traveling man at the moment, so I will post a quick update to get everyone happy again.

    The past weekend was spent testing my skills at casting white metal or babbit as it is know in the US of good A. Always be ready to learn or to be tutored. You are never too old to learn. Brain looks up from his newspaper ...

    First step is to clean the tools ... remember all the flux and tin on the SCCH.







    Then onto removing the solder I received on the steel casing.







    Sanding with a Dremel sanding drum (or do you call this a drumette in English? (It seems that this word tends to the chicken side of things ... )) to get rid of the solder.






    And some more sanding ...






    All sanded clean.






    Wire brush it to remove all the sanding grit.






    Clean and ready for some 97% tin.







    To clamp my holding pliers I first use an elastic band but this was not string enough. The Boss came to the rescue with a hair elastic band!






    Onto heating and tinning








    And done ... I hope this is good enough!








    I had no idea as to the correct way of sealing the casing and clamps. I have learned that if you have no idea as to what to do, close your eyes, jab your finger onto the page with possible solutions or options and use the one your finger has chosen. So I stuck some exhaust sealer below the two clamping plates.






    And screwed the plate into place. Then onto heating the plate to get the exhaust sealer to cure.






    Next I located the casing in place and smeared some exhaust sealer around it.






    Sealed the two sides and around the hole in the casing ...









    Next step was to fashion a plate of some sorts to get the hole shuttered.






    All done and sealed! Onto curing the exhaust sealer ... to infinity and time travel!






    For the core piece I was recommended to use a piece of wood. I whittled a piece of braai kindling down to size. I cannot use my wood lathe as the Pajero is standing in front of it ... ai ai.








    This should work!






    And it does ...









    And then Brain whispered in my ear: "Lamp black"





    I have clean forgotten to blacken the section of the SCCH where the casing is clamped. The new white metal will simply stick to the well tinned area! Off came the casing again...






    I got out the old gin bottle full of citronella oil as this stuff burns with a lot of soot. I think this is the closest I have ever been to a genie in a bottle ... You see sometimes see this white smokey creature in the bottle when things get hot.






    Give it some fire baby!







    There we are ... much better! Back in black






    Onto redoing the sealing. Ai, this is real life so get used to it!









    And done ... only 20 min to do this little task.







    Next step is to get the wooden plug into place. I drilled a hole a tad larger than the bold.







    Fixed and more or less aligned.






    I made sure I get the gap around the plug as equal as my whittling allowed. Final tightening down.





    Next step was to get the SCCH levelled. I used sand to get it leveled.






    It took some adjustment but there we are!








    And then it was time to ponder on the final casting process. The above took the whole of my Saturday and I decided not to push things and rather wait for Sunday morning when I am well rested to try my hand at casting.


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  16. #53
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    And it was Sunday and it was time to cast. Stressful times as I have never done white metal casting before. Bullets and sinkers yes, but not something like this.

    The SCCH with the casing ready for lift-off. And ignition! To infinity and ..?






    The SCCH at the correct temperature ... how do I know that? Hint: "Paper"






    Cooler agent ready for action and being installed.






    The soup is cooking away ready for lunch ... oops I mean casting.






    Multitasking is not easy (or even possible for a man) so I stressed a bit. Cooling agent acting as a cooling agent






    In my impatience I cooled the top as well. In hind sight a big mistake, but how was I to know? After all this is an art and artists do not share their hidden secrets.







    and there the babbit is cast and cooling!








    The wood turned to charcoal! Should have known this would happen, but it just did not click. Why oh why does Brain keep quiet at the weirdest of times?






    Punching the plug out did not work.









    Onto pressure applications of a major order then it will be ...






    And out she came. The hole surface looks good with no cracks.






    Alas, air was trapped in the top section!








    The hole was well sealed. At least something worked according to plan!






    The biggest issue I found was that the white metal did not bond 100% to the casing and I could see a tiny crack along one section of the junction between the casing and the white metal.

    I try and did the bell ringing thingey as per the one video and surely for sure I got a clunk ... no ringing ...

    Oh well, this is how we learn.

    Let me and Brain enjoy some

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  18. #54
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    After some serious inner inspection I found that this is an form of art and I need to sit down and just practice away until I found the way. After all, This is the Way ...

    The wooden plug simply was too much work for me to redo everytime so I decided to make a metal plug. I grinded a piece of stainless pipe to a taper and then sanded it to a LP surface finish. All groovey ...








    This time round I did not seal the underside of the locking plate and simply locked it into position. I then smeared some exhaust sealer all along the edges of the casing and the locking plate.








    There we are. Ready for curing the exhaust sealer.






    And then I looked down into the casing.

    Some exhaust sealer has run into the casing.

    Time to remove the casing, clean everything again and then reapply lamp black.






    Assembled again and sealed.








    And curing ...






    And melting and cooking soupy stuff ...






    And casting white hot stuff ...







    And cooling stuff from the bottom and the top. Oh, did I mention that this is a mistake ...






    Cooling down and onto undoing the bolt







    There we are. A second try at a casting.







    Yes, it was still a tad hot ...















    Onto brute force moves ...






    And onto inspection time.






    Air pockets again ...






    And too many crystals in the metal structure ...










    Oh well, second one for the bell test? No, why not? Aaaah, OK, you cannot ring as well! Just a thud ....




    Onto reading and learning some more secrets.


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  20. #55
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    I watched the videos again and again, read some more literature and then some more again.

    Seems like the inner pipe plug thing needs to be heated to a much higher temperature so that it cools at a slower rate than the casing. Aaaah differential cooling!

    So in a nutshell, the larger casing contact area will cool slower than the smaller inner core surface area. If at the same temperature, the inner core surface will bond first and then when the molten metal starts cooling and shrinking, it will pull away from the casing. Hence no ringing sound and the very fine crack along the contact surface.

    Third try ...

    I melted the one casting again.






    This time I cleaned the SCCH, installed the casing and simply smeared the exhaust sealer all along all the joints. No curing. Saving 20 minutes of my time.

    I made a new plate with a hole the diameter of the inner core and preheated the living hell out of it. It is a holy pipe now!






    New casting done.






    Stripped and removed for inspection. Taking photos with thick gloves make for shaky pictures ... sorry ...








    The underside looks excellent with no small cracks visible between the casing and the white metal. There is a small crack along the contact between the inner core and the white metal, so that is excellent news!






    The topside also showed no cracking.

    Alas a major air bubble cavity again!









    The ringing test was next and well, well, it rang like a bell! Albeit softly but a clear sound!

    Onto solving the air bubbles in the top. I did the wire thing and it did release some air. Me thinks me must pour slower so that air does not get entrapped, heat the casing while casting and then keep heat on the cast piece a bit while stirring so that all air can escape.

    So we learn, so we learn!


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  22. #56
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Just my 2c here, and probably not worth even that.

    Would it not be possible to pour the molten metal in through the hole in the side. ie. make a "chute" from the hole pointing up? That way the air will be trapped in the chute and the metal will rise in the form from the middle instead of coming in from the top and bringing the air along.

    Something similar to what is done with sand casting aluminium.
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by ghouwens View Post
    Just my 2c here, and probably not worth even that.

    Would it not be possible to pour the molten metal in through the hole in the side. ie. make a "chute" from the hole pointing up? That way the air will be trapped in the chute and the metal will rise in the form from the middle instead of coming in from the top and bringing the air along.

    Something similar to what is done with sand casting aluminium.
    Your option is a good one. I will look at it if my next try is not working. I spoke to a well known sculptor friend yesterday and he said he always swung his bronze castings to force the air out. I am a bit scared to do that ....

  24. #58
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by mygoggie View Post
    Your option is a good one. I will look at it if my next try is not working. I spoke to a well known sculptor friend yesterday and he said he always swung his bronze castings to force the air out. I am a bit scared to do that ....
    What about vibration?
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  26. #59
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Aside from the volume of White Metal you'd use, would a solid casting without the centre core not solve your entrapped air problem?
    Then, bung it in a lathe and drill it through.
    Cheers,
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    Default Re: White metal casting for restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by SinWolf View Post
    What about vibration?
    This is a Sinvolle (sensible) suggestion by Sinwolf . . .
    Die B staan vir Beneke

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