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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenhorn View Post
    I think a farmer will have a easier time fixing and diagnosing a mechanical problem then an electrical one
    On a Cruiser with a 1 HZ engine, yes. On the 1VD-FTV (V8 D4D) not so much, I think. Plus an electric motor got a lot fewer parts that can actually break compared to a piston engine.
    Last edited by HugoNotte; 2021/01/09 at 04:26 PM.
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  3. #42
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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    Quote Originally Posted by Estee View Post
    But didnt they also hike vehicle taxes and licencing fees? Nothing works like a bit of the old coercion
    I would rather say it is great when a Government gives incentives.
    Norway is one of the world's wealthiest countries. I doubt Noregians need to be coerced.

    Quote Originally Posted by HugoNotte View Post
    On a Cruiser with a 1 HZ engine, yes. On the 1VD-FTV (V8 D4D) not so much, I think. Plus an electric motor got a lot fewer parts that can actually break compared to a piston engine.
    Indeed. No 10k or 15k services like with a dÍm Diesel. Far more economical in the maintenance department.
    Last edited by EHoffmann; 2021/01/09 at 05:41 PM.
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  5. #43
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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    Quote Originally Posted by HugoNotte View Post
    On a Cruiser with a 1 HZ engine, yes. On the 1VD-FTV (V8 D4D) not so much, I think. Plus an electric motor got a lot fewer parts that can actually break compared to a piston engine.
    A farmer will be able to replace a wheel bearing or side shaft rather then replacing a electric motor which would be a replacement unit and maybe would need to programmed too.

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  7. #44
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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    Why charge stations. Why not replace battery stations. Like with gas bottels. Drive in remove battery install new one and off you go.

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  9. #45
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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenhorn View Post
    A farmer will be able to replace a wheel bearing or side shaft rather then replacing a electric motor which would be a replacement unit and maybe would need to programmed too.
    He will still be able to replace wheel bearings and side shafts, electrical motor or piston engine. And itís possibly easier to replace an electrical motor unit than a piston engine, a lot less plumbing to do. Programming? Not really. You probably think of mapping or loading software, which is a very different thing. But any engine available today, apart from the 1HZ comes with an ECU and might need software loaded in case of an engine change or as part of an update. Itís done at the dealership workshop, certainly not on the farm.
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  11. #46
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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    Quote Originally Posted by HugoNotte View Post
    He will still be able to replace wheel bearings and side shafts, electrical motor or piston engine. And itís possibly easier to replace an electrical motor unit than a piston engine, a lot less plumbing to do. Programming? Not really. You probably think of mapping or loading software, which is a very different thing. But any engine available today, apart from the 1HZ comes with an ECU and might need software loaded in case of an engine change or as part of an update. Itís done at the dealership workshop, certainly not on the farm.
    A Rivian pickup has 4 motors on each wheel.

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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    Quote Originally Posted by Erwin Schimper View Post
    Why charge stations. Why not replace battery stations. Like with gas bottels. Drive in remove battery install new one and off you go.
    Some years ago when the Joule was in development - and meant to be a Town's car for Uk and Europe - I attended the International Battery conference hosted by the CSIR in Cape Town. The broad idea was just that. Battery charging ** no! I meant changing/swapping centres in cities. You wouldn't "own" the battery - just like you don't "own" a gas bottle.
    Last edited by EHoffmann; 2021/01/10 at 06:51 AM. Reason: stupid mistake corrected - apologies
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  14. #48
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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    Yes much better than recharge on the go. Might even be faster than filling you bakkie with diesel. Can also be automated and self services and you can use your phone while "filling up" without the risk of blowing the place to bits

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  16. #49
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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenhorn View Post
    A Rivian pickup has 4 motors on each wheel.
    Wow, that would be 16 motors. Maybe you want to read up a little on tech stuff. And you think it doesn't have wheel bearings?
    The current one has got 1 motor at each wheel. Makes things even simpler, since there are no gearboxes, differentials, transfer case...
    Have you actually seen an electric motor? It's one of the easiest things to overhaul. Quick and cheap.


    Have a look at the "skate board" chassis: https://tractionlife.com/rivian-truc...and-abilities/

    However, we are talking here about the LC70 series electric version, which still seems to have the solid axles with diff pumpkins. Usually conversions like that are powered by 1 motor.
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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    Quote Originally Posted by Erwin Schimper View Post
    Why charge stations. Why not replace battery stations. Like with gas bottels. Drive in remove battery install new one and off you go.
    There is some talk on this idea. Cars would have to have standard types. Not happening in a hurry. Here is one car that is designed for it:
    https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...tteries-lease/

    Here is some additional info:
    https://driving.ca/features/feature-...-future-of-evs

    Modern electric cars have so long driving distances that combining that into these high power charging stations there is no need for changing stations. On longer trips stop for coffee and top up batteries. Average annual driving distance in many countries per annum is somewhere around 20 000 km. Having 500 km range it is one charge per week. One Finnish retail group boss said when asked why they build charging stations: "People shop weekly and they have to charge weekly". Initially it was free charging.
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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jouko View Post
    There is some talk on this idea. Cars would have to have standard types. Not happening in a hurry. Here is one car that is designed for it:
    https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...tteries-lease/

    Here is some additional info:
    https://driving.ca/features/feature-...-future-of-evs

    Modern electric cars have so long driving distances that combining that into these high power charging stations there is no need for changing stations. On longer trips stop for coffee and top up batteries. Average annual driving distance in many countries per annum is somewhere around 20 000 km. Having 500 km range it is one charge per week. One Finnish retail group boss said when asked why they build charging stations: "People shop weekly and they have to charge weekly". Initially it was free charging.
    Yes Jouko

    An Electric Car looks more practical for City Driving than even the cellphone which requires charging every night.
    Most of our annual km are covered during city driving and at probably less than 200km per day...
    I think those who think that ev are not practical ( for city driving with slow home charging at night) are a bit off.
    Drive it! feel if its as good as they say!

  20. #52
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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    Quote Originally Posted by Panthera View Post
    Yes Jouko

    An Electric Car looks more practical for City Driving than even the cellphone which requires charging every night.
    Most of our annual km are covered during city driving and at probably less than 200km per day...
    I think those who think that ev are not practical ( for city driving with slow home charging at night) are a bit off.
    For those who can afford to have a dedicated run around for town, EVs will be just fine. But the moment you need the same vehicle to do long distance travel and if it's just once or twice a year, they might not be suitable.
    Renting a vehicle for those occasions is not going to happen.
    None of us here is willing to sell their 4x4 for a more economical vehicle and rent a 4x4 when we feel we need it. And I can't see anybody planning to do 1200 - 1500 km in a day for the annual vacation to include at least 1 or 2 stops of 2 or more hours in order to recharge their EV's batteries.
    Once charging can be done in minutes rather than hours (properly filling my aux tank takes more than 10 minutes), EVs become practical for Africa, too.
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  22. #53
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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    From an eco friendly perspective, only talking about SA, weíre fooling ourselves, itís not. That is all lost as our electricity generation is from coal. Change that to hydro, solar, wind farms or even Nuclear then youíre taking the good talk (nuclear many will disagree. Iím coming from a point of comparing to coal. Also the Americans and Europe will never ďallowĒ mass nuclear power plants anyway).
    I say drop the eco talk all together until the generation of electricity is also changes to eco friendly. Until then itís a complete waste. Just my opinion.
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  24. #54
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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    Quote Originally Posted by AK77 View Post
    From an eco friendly perspective, only talking about SA, we’re fooling ourselves, it’s not. That is all lost as our electricity generation is from coal. Change that to hydro, solar, wind farms or even Nuclear then you’re taking the good talk (nuclear many will disagree. I’m coming from a point of comparing to coal. Also the Americans and Europe will never “allow” mass nuclear power plants anyway).
    I say drop the eco talk all together until the generation of electricity is also changes to eco friendly. Until then it’s a complete waste. Just my opinion.
    Yes please. Drop the Eco aspect of EV's in SA. The electricity for them comes from burning coal. You're just replacing the geographical point of pollution release. Then comes distribution and charging losses. For the same energy output of an EV vs a fuel powered vehicle, you're using more fossil fuel for an EV. Where and how do you think the Jaguar charging point in Beaufort West's power is generated?
    Last edited by Olyfboer; 2021/01/10 at 10:09 AM. Reason: Spelling

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  26. #55
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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    Quote Originally Posted by AK77 View Post
    From an eco friendly perspective, only talking about SA, weíre fooling ourselves, itís not. That is all lost as our electricity generation is from coal. Change that to hydro, solar, wind farms or even Nuclear then youíre taking the good talk (nuclear many will disagree. Iím coming from a point of comparing to coal. Also the Americans and Europe will never ďallowĒ mass nuclear power plants anyway).
    I say drop the eco talk all together until the generation of electricity is also changes to eco friendly. Until then itís a complete waste. Just my opinion.
    Yes I completely agree. Not to mention that lithium mining is hardly green. The carbon footprint of mining lithium and converting that to lithium ion batteries must be huge. Also, donít these batteries have a very limited lifespan? Can they be recycled? The green credentials of EVs just donít add up for me yet.

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  28. #56
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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    Some comments:
    - I was building world largest nuclear P.S. in Finland. It is again delayed.
    - There is one Russian unit coming to Finland after Ruskies get the design finalized (they are late)
    - I do not know how many nuclear stations are under construction on European side in Russia
    - France is building one
    - UK is building at least one

    Has anybody been to Northern Cape or EC? Solar and wind is coming fast. Would be faster if couple coal mining protecting ministers were replaced.

    New cars have hundreds of km range. Top up during the coffee break will not get the battery full but enough to get to the next break. We are not crazy so one top up per day would be more than enough. Over 1000 km per day. That is not a holiday. It is a high risk race.

    Batteries last longer than normal car owner will keep the car. Full battery replacement is seldom required. Some cells maybe. Batteries are recycled as energy store at fixed place, e.g. for electricity network.

    Lithium mining is an issue although I have not read the latest on this item.

    At least 2 car family can easily have one electric. In large part of Europe both.

    My sister bought a flat in Helsinki. Block of flat has electric car for common use.

    World is changing fast. What was a fact last year may not be so today.
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  30. #57
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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    With Eskom and long distances in SA? It will take years and years

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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    We live on a farm 20km out of town, and bought a second hand electric vehicle. Probably the vehicle with the least range available in SA. All new vehicles has between 2 to 4 times our range. And I would not swap it for anything. The savings are massive.

    Few point after reading all the below.
    - We did not do it for ecological reasons, we did it to save money.
    - It would be perfect for a farm vehicle, very few farmers do more than 500km a day. Charge it full at night, ready to go the next day.
    - You never stop at a fueling station, so it actually SAVES you time. If going on a long trip once in a while, and you have to stop for one hour after 5 hours of driving, eat a meal and think of all the time you saved during the rest of the year. Charging times are dropping, and SA's main routes have more than enough charging points.
    - Load shedding is not a problem. You have about 10-12 hours a night to charge, you only need about 5 with a decent home charger. So you can still have lots of load shedding.
    - Eskom has surplus at night, so also not a problem.
    - Charging from eskom, is much cheaper than filling your car with petrol/diesel.
    - We have solar, car charge in the mornings, before my wife starts driving around, and also charge at night, we simply bought an additional 10kwh battery for R70k, that is charged at day, and then at night that goes into the car. It sounds expensive, but we save about R6000 a month on fuel and maintenance. And my house now has spare capacity for a cloudy day.
    - Maintenance (and downtime) is way less, if anything. On any modern car, the farmer can maybe service it (which the electric car do not need), but he has to take it in to fix it anyway, there is simply to much electronics on the engine. Brakes, shocks, etc are the same. Most farmers drive cars still under warranty, so moot point.
    - If you go on holiday, there is almost no place in SA without electricity, just charge it where you stay. Arrange beforehand.
    - Except for overlanding, it will work in most cases.
    - Most of us have more than one vehicle. Keep your holiday Diesel, all others can and should be electric.

    An electric 4x4 will be far superior with no mechanical diff locks and so on, but constant perfectly controlled 4-wheel drive, almost like having all 3 diff locks on, but still being able to go around a turn. With a much lower center of gravity. A single or multiple wheels can even turn backwards while other turn forward if needed.
    Last edited by DirkL; 2021/01/11 at 07:13 AM.
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  33. #59
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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    Quote Originally Posted by DirkL View Post
    We live on a farm 20km out of town, and bought a second hand electric vehicle. Probably the vehicle with the least range available in SA. All new vehicles has between 2 to 4 times our range. And I would not swap it for anything. The savings are massive.

    Few point after reading all the below.
    - We did not do it for ecological reasons, we did it to save money.
    - It would be perfect for a farm vehicle, very few farmers do more than 500km a day. Charge it full at night, ready to go the next day.
    - You never stop at a fueling station, so it actually SAVES you time. If going on a long trip once in a while, and you have to stop for one hour after 5 hours of driving, eat a meal and think of all the time you saved during the rest of the year. Charging times are dropping, and SA's main routes have more than enough charging points.
    - Load shedding is not a problem. You have about 10-12 hours a night to charge, you only need about 5 with a decent home charger. So you can still have lots of load shedding.
    - Eskom has surplus at night, so also not a problem.
    - Charging from eskom, is much cheaper than filling your car with petrol/diesel.
    - We have solar, car charge in the mornings, before my wife starts driving around, and also charge at night, we simply bought an additional 10kwh battery for R70k, that is charged at day, and then at night that goes into the car. It sounds expensive, but we save about R6000 a month on fuel and maintenance. And my house now has spare capacity for a cloudy day.
    - Maintenance (and downtime) is way less, if anything. On any modern car, the farmer can maybe service it (which the electric car do not need), but he has to take it in to fix it anyway, there is simply to much electronics on the engine. Brakes, shocks, etc are the same. Most farmers drive cars still under warranty, so moot point.
    - If you go on holiday, there is almost no place in SA without electricity, just charge it where you stay. Arrange beforehand.
    - Except for overlanding, it will work in most cases.
    - Most of us have more than one vehicle. Keep your holiday Diesel, all others can and should be electric.

    An electric 4x4 will be far superior with no mechanical diff locks and so on, but constant perfectly controlled 4-wheel drive, almost like having all 3 diff locks on, but still being able to go around a turn. With a much lower center of gravity. A single or multiple wheels can even turn backwards while other turn forward if needed.

    That car costs R750k.. a small hatch.. I pay R2.15 a unit average, for electricity... It take 4.5 hrs to charge that vehicle to 100% at 7kWh.. That is R63.00 a night.

    So if you calculate what a Polo costs (Upmarket small hatch) and its fuel consumption of 16km/l..

    How far will you need to drive that I3, before you start saving money?
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  34. #60
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    Default Re: Those who said, electric vehicle, NEVER!

    Quote Originally Posted by EHoffmann View Post
    Some years ago when the Joule was in development - and meant to be a Town's car for Uk and Europe - I attended the International Battery conference hosted by the CSIR in Cape Town. The broad idea was just that. Battery charging ** no! I meant changing/swapping centres in cities. You wouldn't "own" the battery - just like you don't "own" a gas bottle.
    Swopping out a battery is a good idea as opposed to waiting for one to charge. Thats how we used to run our battery bays prior to lithium. For heavy use, one vehicle would require 3 lead acid batteries, each weighing nearly 1 000kgs. One would be in use, one on charge and one cooling down after being charged. Space, weight and handling were the issues, not to mention the costs.

    With lithium, this has changed considerably. One battery can now do the work of 3 due to the ability to opportunity charge during idle time. One of the benefits we sell is the demise of the additional batteries and the need to change them out, battery bays are no longer required and the chargers can be placed in different locations compared to centralised bays.

    Swopping a battery is a good idea though. The logistical aspect is where the challenge might lie but as you say, the gas industry model could be used. I think the returns issue will be challenging, for instance I make a trip to DBN from JHB, pick up a fresh battery in JHB, replace it in DBN and the drive to PE, do the same and then onto CPTN, do the same and then return to JHB. JHB eventually gets its battery back but possibly creating a shortage during that period.

    These batteries are quite large though and vehicle manufacturers would need to be on board regarding either standardising access for ''universal'' use or offering swop-out batteries at their dealers for their particular vehicles.

    All of our batteries, chargers and vehicles are linked to the cloud and we can observe their location, use parameters and other technical data.

    Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............
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