Low Range - yes or no? - Page 3





Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 110
  1. #41
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Ruimsig
    Age
    57
    Posts
    5,931
    Thanked: 19833

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by HugoNotte View Post
    The part time 4x4 system in the manual Amarok, like in many other bakkies, works like this:
    2H: rear axle is driven, front drive shaft is disconnected by the transfer case
    4H & 4L: transfer case connects the out put shafts for the front and rear axle with a chain.

    The rear and fron axle do have differentials, but there is a solid connection between the axles's prop shafts (made by the transfer case) when in 4x4.
    Front and rear axle don't travel the same distance, unless the vehicle drives in a straight line. This difference in distance traveled while in 4x4 causes wind up in the axles and prop shafts. On loose ground you can hear wheels slipping during a slow tight turn. On a grippy hard surface it is a lot more difficult for the tyres to slip, hence the drive train sort of gets twisted. Usually the weakest link is the chain inside the transfer case which connects front and rear output shafts. It gets stretched and might even fail.

    Attachment 599471
    Thanks for this Hugo

    The transfer case is a housing for a number of components and a means to split power input in two directions. The clutch assembly in the diagram is in ''freewheel'' mode until activated by the driver and where it essentially locks the drive of the rear shaft to the front shaft, correct? Until then, the clutch is in an ''open diff'' position as far as the front drive is concerned?

    The clutch pack is essentially a diff lack but not housed in a diff perse?

    It works in a similar fashion as a viscous coupling which also consists of a number of clutches which are activated by spinning and which lock the two shafts together when activated. A viscous coupling can be a centre diff or it can be configured to be integrated with a centre diff.

    In this instance, VW have opted for a similar principle as a ''VC as a Diff'' but one which is activated by a manual input and not slippage. I think I have it now.

    Cheers.

    Estee = S T = Sean Towlson

    Total 4x4 Novice with no experience whats-so-ever

    ''Nothing makes the Earth seem so spacious as to have friends at a distance; they make the latitudes and longitudes''. H.D. Thoreau.

    Hummer H3 V8

    W.A.P Objectivist

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    King Williams Town
    Age
    52
    Posts
    7,930
    Thanked: 1559

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Many moons ago at the Gariep NGTG Hunter and a very experienced 4x4 navigator took his 4x4 Isuzu on a 4x4 outing. With some excellent guidance and line selection he navigated the entire trail and made it home in one piece.

    He's had many moments in the sun. Mostly waiting for a tow.
    You just had to bring that up..
    Isuzu STD 2.5d 2x4 rear diffy lock
    2x spotlight,2x fog lights
    215/80/R15c tyres
    1 x great humourous driver
    GPS,Bluetooth
    Eagle eye dash cam --stolen ..bought another one
    snorkel soon
    Craig
    I DON'T LIVE IN AFRICA,AFRICA LIVES IN ME- Kyle my son

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    King Williams Town
    Age
    52
    Posts
    7,930
    Thanked: 1559

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by hein100 View Post
    why u laugh and your point being what?
    Each to his own but my point is, why add wear to a system unnecessary ie 4x4 components when you can travel in 4x2. So my laughing is about people entering Baviaans then it's.. EVERYONE, LOCK HUBS AND ENGAGE 4X4..heck, imagine if I had 4x4,i would go places most mall driving 4x4 owners would be scared to venture to. No I cant affordat moment due to kids at varsity
    Isuzu STD 2.5d 2x4 rear diffy lock
    2x spotlight,2x fog lights
    215/80/R15c tyres
    1 x great humourous driver
    GPS,Bluetooth
    Eagle eye dash cam --stolen ..bought another one
    snorkel soon
    Craig
    I DON'T LIVE IN AFRICA,AFRICA LIVES IN ME- Kyle my son

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to hunter26 For This Useful Post:


  5. #44
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Pinetown
    Age
    71
    Posts
    2,541
    Thanked: 2063

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    Regarding diff. locking, so as usual, slightly off topic, but not muchly.

    The best I have experienced personally and USED was the Hydrotrack on my old Ford Ranchero.
    This was a "kind of" limited slip diff set-up which transferred power hydraulically and automatically between the rear wheels.
    Also a 4 speed auto gear box.
    No 4x4x or low range though, it had two gearbox settings: Economy and "Normal". These settings just changed the speed of change and engine revolutions at which a quick kick down would occur.
    This was handy when towing caravan, boat etc.
    You could also override the auto and select gears manually but then it would not switch between gears - locked into the one you selected.
    It worked exceptionally well and appart from ground clearance issues could go most places that you would with a 4x4.
    Ground clearance was the issue.
    All in all an amazing vehicle and we did many overlanding km in it towing caravans and trailers before I sold it and bought the Isuzu KB.
    Peter Hutchison
    Answering the call of the wild is just so much beter than answering the telephone.
    [B][SIZE=2][FONT=Calibri][SIZE=2][B]ISUZU KB 280 DT LE
    Modified Glider Hunter trailer fitted with RTT.
    Platkar = Chevy Spark 1.2

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Port Elizabeth
    Posts
    7,492
    Thanked: 914

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    You do not need 4L to drive through Baviaans, it is just a lower grade gravel road, nothing more. The concrete patches on the uphills is there to protect further erosion of the road, they are by no means very long or large. The concrete actually helps with traction so it is completely fine to stay in 2WD.

    If it is your first trip through the Baviaans then I can understand the reason for selecting 4L and the concern about windup. But, there is always a bit of dust, lose dirt on the concrete patches so windup will not occur as the wheel can still slip and because the concrete is short your wheels will be on gravel long before windup occurs.

    Only a Morris Minor from the 1970's would struggle to get up this incline, I think the gradient is about 16 to 18 % at most.
    Regards
    HeinrichC

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to HeinrichC For This Useful Post:


  8. #46
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Out of Town
    Age
    54
    Posts
    6,803
    Thanked: 828

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by hunter26 View Post
    Each to his own but my point is, why add wear to a system unnecessary ie 4x4 components when you can travel in 4x2. So my laughing is about people entering Baviaans then it's.. EVERYONE, LOCK HUBS AND ENGAGE 4X4..heck, imagine if I had 4x4,i would go places most mall driving 4x4 owners would be scared to venture to. No I cant affordat moment due to kids at varsity
    Wear on the car is only part of the equation, keep in mind what you are doing to the road, and what that leaves the next guy to negotiate.
    David/Hillbilly - 1997 SFA Nissan Sani 2,7 TD - 5" lift on 33" tires - Dual Transfer with 4.1 gears

    http://www.youtube.com/user/davidabcab



  9. #47
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    De Wildt
    Age
    58
    Posts
    40,380
    Thanked: 17104

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by hunter26 View Post
    So my laughing is about people entering Baviaans then it's.. EVERYONE, LOCK HUBS AND ENGAGE 4X4..
    same with Breedtsnek: I'd say even after heavy rains, you'd only need 4x4 for a couple of meters in totality, yet a lot of people go full hog 4L down at the tar road
    Jakes Louw
    2012 Jeep Sahara Unlimited 3.6 V6
    Percivamus

  10. #48
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    De Wildt
    Age
    58
    Posts
    40,380
    Thanked: 17104

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by bfreesani View Post
    Wear on the car is only part of the equation, keep in mind what you are doing to the road, and what that leaves the next guy to negotiate.
    yes, this has been discussed: as fast as possible, as slow as needed, use the appropriate gear
    Jakes Louw
    2012 Jeep Sahara Unlimited 3.6 V6
    Percivamus

  11. #49
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Henties
    Posts
    3,681
    Thanked: 1241

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Estee View Post
    Thanks for this Hugo

    The transfer case is a housing for a number of components and a means to split power input in two directions. The clutch assembly in the diagram is in ''freewheel'' mode until activated by the driver and where it essentially locks the drive of the rear shaft to the front shaft, correct? Until then, the clutch is in an ''open diff'' position as far as the front drive is concerned?

    The clutch pack is essentially a diff lack but not housed in a diff perse?

    It works in a similar fashion as a viscous coupling which also consists of a number of clutches which are activated by spinning and which lock the two shafts together when activated. A viscous coupling can be a centre diff or it can be configured to be integrated with a centre diff.

    In this instance, VW have opted for a similar principle as a ''VC as a Diff'' but one which is activated by a manual input and not slippage. I think I have it now.

    Cheers.

    I think we are still not on the same page here...

    With reference to the picture of the T-case:
    the input shaft is solidly locked with the rear output shaft. That in turn drives the rear prop shaft and the rear axle through the rear diff. The rear diff is in place to allow for different wheel speeds on the rear axle.

    The clutch assembly sits on the input shaft and, when activated, locks up and drives the drive chain which in turn drives the front output shaft. This happens, when 4H or 4L gets selected which actuates the clutch lever.

    In the manual Amarok, like with many other part time 4wd systems, that clutch does NOT allow for partial locking, it is either open (2H) or closed / locked (4H, 4L). This means for every revolution of the input shaft, the rear AND front output shafts make 1 revolution, too when the clutch is locked.
    This means, that front and rear axle want to travel the same distance, which is fine in a straight line. However a sharp turn would cause the two axles to cover different distances (look at tracks in sand) and cause the rear and front output shafts trying to turn at different speeds. Since they are mechanically locked by the clutch inside the T-Case, this isn't possible and tension buils up in the entire system. If anything has to give, the chain would probably be the cheapest part to replace and wouldn't render the vehicle completely without drive and would probably therefore be designed to be the weakest link and stretch and possibly break before other components would break.

    Front and rear axle diffs only compensate for difference in distance traveled of their respective left and right wheels. Full time 4wd and some part time 4wd (like Mitsubishi super select) allow for difference in rotation between the front and rear outoput shafts. Usually this is achieved by some form of diff, be it just a (lockable) conventional diff with gears or some sort of clutch assembly allowing for slip (Torsen and others).
    But the manual 4 motion Amarok does NOT have any form of differential gear box in between the 2 axles. The T-case either opens (2WD) or locks (4H / 4L) the output shafts together.
    Hence it says in the owner's manual, which hardly anybody reads, to only use 4H / 4L on loose or slippery surfaces in order for the tension build up (wind up) to be released early through wheel slip.

    In the end it's like a solid axle quadbike, go through a turn and one of the rear wheels will slip. In the case above we are not looking at a single axle, but the front and rear prop shafts being locked together, similar to a solid axle where one end turns just as far as the other end.
    2012 FJ Cruiser
    1983 FJ60 Landcruiser

  12. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Pretoria
    Age
    66
    Posts
    2,167
    Thanked: 454

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    In difficult slow terrain I always use low range. I prefer to drive in 4th gear low range to second gear high range. Your options is more and the in between 3rd gear may be just what you need.

  13. #51
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Ruimsig
    Age
    57
    Posts
    5,931
    Thanked: 19833

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by HugoNotte View Post
    I think we are still not on the same page here...

    With reference to the picture of the T-case:
    the input shaft is solidly locked with the rear output shaft. That in turn drives the rear prop shaft and the rear axle through the rear diff. The rear diff is in place to allow for different wheel speeds on the rear axle.

    The clutch assembly sits on the input shaft and, when activated, locks up and drives the drive chain which in turn drives the front output shaft. This happens, when 4H or 4L gets selected which actuates the clutch lever.

    In the manual Amarok, like with many other part time 4wd systems, that clutch does NOT allow for partial locking, it is either open (2H) or closed / locked (4H, 4L). This means for every revolution of the input shaft, the rear AND front output shafts make 1 revolution, too when the clutch is locked.
    This means, that front and rear axle want to travel the same distance, which is fine in a straight line. However a sharp turn would cause the two axles to cover different distances (look at tracks in sand) and cause the rear and front output shafts trying to turn at different speeds. Since they are mechanically locked by the clutch inside the T-Case, this isn't possible and tension buils up in the entire system. If anything has to give, the chain would probably be the cheapest part to replace and wouldn't render the vehicle completely without drive and would probably therefore be designed to be the weakest link and stretch and possibly break before other components would break.

    Front and rear axle diffs only compensate for difference in distance traveled of their respective left and right wheels. Full time 4wd and some part time 4wd (like Mitsubishi super select) allow for difference in rotation between the front and rear outoput shafts. Usually this is achieved by some form of diff, be it just a (lockable) conventional diff with gears or some sort of clutch assembly allowing for slip (Torsen and others).
    But the manual 4 motion Amarok does NOT have any form of differential gear box in between the 2 axles. The T-case either opens (2WD) or locks (4H / 4L) the output shafts together.
    Hence it says in the owner's manual, which hardly anybody reads, to only use 4H / 4L on loose or slippery surfaces in order for the tension build up (wind up) to be released early through wheel slip.

    In the end it's like a solid axle quadbike, go through a turn and one of the rear wheels will slip. In the case above we are not looking at a single axle, but the front and rear prop shafts being locked together, similar to a solid axle where one end turns just as far as the other end.
    No, we are. The electric clutch acts like an old skule center diff lock but it is not a diff, by locking the front and rear prop-shafts. Its either on or off
    Estee = S T = Sean Towlson

    Total 4x4 Novice with no experience whats-so-ever

    ''Nothing makes the Earth seem so spacious as to have friends at a distance; they make the latitudes and longitudes''. H.D. Thoreau.

    Hummer H3 V8

    W.A.P Objectivist

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Estee For This Useful Post:


  15. #52
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Jhb
    Age
    34
    Posts
    107
    Thanked: 46

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    I think that everyone has their own opinion on this topic, and I donít believe that there is an outright "right or wrong" answer to the question. It would all depend on the environment, the vehicle and most importantly driver capability. Lots of factors at play.

    For me, why would one spend all that money to get the 4 x 4 version of a vehicle and then look for excuses not to use all the features. IMO if it's there, use it. If done properly, it wonít cause damage to the vehicle, but will make for an easier, more comfortable ride, as well as less damage to the track.

    I know it sounds silly, but I enjoy the hole process of selecting LR etc, part of the reason I opted for the manual version.
    Anders Boden

  16. #53
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Cape Town
    Posts
    132
    Thanked: 967

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    The picture I get here is that baviaans is really not that technical to drive with the proper vehicle but what about a 'not so big boy 4x4' like an outlander?
    Obviously going up would be easier but what about coming down? Auto with no low range. Do you just feather the brakes and hope they don't go soft or is there a better way of doing it?
    I know it sounds silly but I'd rather ask than learn the hard way since I've never owned an auto without low range before.

    Small edit. I'm not going there anytime soon but I'd like know for any other situations as well.
    Last edited by Nabs; 2020/12/18 at 01:01 PM.

  17. #54
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Henties
    Posts
    3,681
    Thanked: 1241

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Estee View Post
    No, we are. The electric clutch acts like an old skule center diff lock but it is not a diff, by locking the front and rear prop-shafts. Its either on or off
    Yes, that's it!
    2012 FJ Cruiser
    1983 FJ60 Landcruiser

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to HugoNotte For This Useful Post:


  19. #55
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Johannesburg
    Posts
    798
    Thanked: 168

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    I have done Baviaans twice, once in Terios MT and then in Pajero Sport MT.

    With Terios I had to do quite deep river crossing etc. Never did I feel that I needed to have low range vehicle. I never got stuck and Terios just flew through.

    With Pajero Sport, I never had to use low range. I used 4H with center diff locked on gravel to gain more control.

    You don't need a vehicle with low range to travel through Baviaans unless after a heavy downpour, washed out tracks and deep river crossings.

  20. #56
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Mukifu
    Age
    52
    Posts
    349
    Thanked: 670

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonesie86 View Post
    I think that everyone has their own opinion on this topic, and I donít believe that there is an outright "right or wrong" answer to the question. It would all depend on the environment, the vehicle and most importantly driver capability. Lots of factors at play.

    For me, why would one spend all that money to get the 4 x 4 version of a vehicle and then look for excuses not to use all the features. IMO if it's there, use it. If done properly, it wonít cause damage to the vehicle, but will make for an easier, more comfortable ride, as well as less damage to the track.

    I know it sounds silly, but I enjoy the hole process of selecting LR etc, part of the reason I opted for the manual version.
    Spot on
    Neil Rocher
    1997 2.8i Defender 110 (Fats)
    1996 300 TDI Defender 110 (Aqualung)
    1982 Mog 416
    1971 series 2a 109"
    1968 FJ40 (Piglet)
    1967 series 2a (dugudugu) 88"
    1958 series 2 (Betty) 88"
    1955 series 1 109" (rebuilding)

  21. #57
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    De Wildt
    Age
    58
    Posts
    40,380
    Thanked: 17104

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonesie86 View Post
    If done properly, it wonít cause damage to the vehicle,
    I think this is the problem. Some guys buy a 4x4, don't understand the 4x4 system, and screw up the car because they never took the effort to do a course or find out how to use it properly.
    Jakes Louw
    2012 Jeep Sahara Unlimited 3.6 V6
    Percivamus

  22. #58
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Location
    Roodepoort
    Age
    60
    Posts
    41
    Thanked: 28

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teryos View Post
    I have done Baviaans twice, once in Terios MT and then in Pajero Sport MT.

    With Terios I had to do quite deep river crossing etc. Never did I feel that I needed to have low range vehicle. I never got stuck and Terios just flew through.

    With Pajero Sport, I never had to use low range. I used 4H with center diff locked on gravel to gain more control.

    You don't need a vehicle with low range to travel through Baviaans unless after a heavy downpour, washed out tracks and deep river crossings.
    Correct. If you read my original post I specifically said that I did NOT use LR. My question was all about 1st HR vs 2 nd or 3 rd LR.

    The debate on wind up was very informative - including the illustrations. Thanks.

  23. #59
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Henties
    Posts
    3,681
    Thanked: 1241

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swannie1960 View Post
    Correct. If you read my original post I specifically said that I did NOT use LR. My question was all about 1st HR vs 2 nd or 3 rd LR.

    The debate on wind up was very informative - including the illustrations. Thanks.
    Seeing that your original question hasn't been answered...
    From the comfort of my couch that is very difficult to say. In general, if your vehicle didn't struggle in 4H 1st gear, than it was a good choice. In case you had to work the clutch a lot, 4L 1st or 2nd would have been better. You know the ratios probably better than I do, which gears in the 4L range would be below 1st 4H. If not, RTFM! It's not standard and varies on different vehicles.
    4L is certainly called for if:
    1) 4H 1st is too fast for the terrain
    2) the engine labors too much in 4H 1st
    3) on a steep incline you would want to keep the engine in it's proper torque range. Again, 4H 1st might be too fast.
    4) you have to work the clutch a lot
    5) on a descent, when engine braking isn't good enough in 4H 1st. Remember that Hill Descent Control uses the brakes and they heat up quickly. I would much rather use engine braking which with the manual gearbox works very well.
    6) whenever you feel like...

    Mechanically there isn't much of a difference between 4H and 4L in your vehicle. 4L is made for slow stuff and affords the engine to work less.
    Again, RTFM: when selecting 4L the electronics might switch certain things on or off, e.g. TC and ESP might be deactivated. But you should really read the owner's manual for that, since it is again different for most vehicles. You might only be able to use the rear difflock in 4L, RTFM.
    When rear difflock is engaged, TC might be completely disabled or it might still work on the front axle, which then would give you an electronic diff lock for the front axle. Again, it differs from vehicle to vehicle.
    2012 FJ Cruiser
    1983 FJ60 Landcruiser

  24. #60
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Johannesburg
    Posts
    798
    Thanked: 168

    Default Re: Low Range - yes or no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swannie1960 View Post
    We drove down to Sedgefield from Gauteng via Baviaanskloof in my Amarok. Entered at Willowmore and came out on the Patensie side. Going up the mountain where the 2 spoor concrete is, I used 4 wheel drive but did not engage low range. The Amarok conquered the ling steep climb without any problem in 1st gear.

    However, I wondered afterwards what is the best: using high range 1st gear like I did, or going to low range and use 2nd or even perhaps 3rd gear.

    I have to add that this was my first time doing the Baviaans and nothing could prepare me for its size and majestic beauty ...
    That. You already answered your own question. If you needed 4L 2nd or 3rd, your Amarok would have given you indication.
    You'll know when your vehicle is struggling in 4H, even in 1st gear. And if it does, time for 4L, depending on inclination and surface, 1st or 2nd or 3rd.

    Yes you must know though that in 4H 1st gear, you did not have to press clutch too many times, or probably not at all. If that's the case, no reason to go 4L.

    However, for the fun of it and just because you have it, you could use LR 2nd or 3rd, nothing would have broken unless it's straight tar or concrete surface.
    On numerous occasions, I have used 4H as well as 4L on a steep part with very uneven track. 4H 1st gear and 4L 2nd worked for me. With 4L, you have more control and you generally don't do anything (not even press accelerator), just control your steering wheel. The car takes care of the rest. Whereas, 4H, it needs your constant input.
    Last edited by Teryos; 2020/12/18 at 05:49 PM.

  25. The Following User Says Thank You to Teryos For This Useful Post:


Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •