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Thread: F1 - 2021

  1. #2301
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Make myself unpopular to the Max Fanboy Club.

    I am not sure how anyone can speak of Max and Lewis' greatness in the same sentence? One is a world champion 7 times over, the others best finishes are 3rd twice.

    Forgetting the car, record books record victories. Max I am sure could have signed other deals in his career but stuck with RBR and then elected to extend his RBR deal to 2023. Being a great driver is also about putting yourself into a winning team and keeping yourself there. Max had an offer in 2014 to join the Mercedes Driver Development Program, he chose not to. Bad tactical move? The car argument can be made for a couple of guys, what about Lando in a Mercedes or Charl?

    That Max may be a prodigious talent is a different story, at 23 he has lots of racing left in him but I cannot help but feel that time is running out. It looks like RBR is competitive this year so lets see what happens? I really like Max and would love to see him excel, but lets keep it real.

    Lewis finished 2nd in his first season and won in his 2nd season, then he had a long wait when Mercedes went through a slump and scored a 5th, 4th, 5th, 4th and 4th so he knows what it's like to play second fiddle. Schumacher also took a while, 14th, 3rd 4th then WC for the next two years with Benneton before moving to Ferrari to develop the car. Schumacher's skill developed the Benneton into a world beater, no talk of if only he had a better car. He then took a non winning Ferrari and developed that into a world beater. Lewis was 23 when he first won the title, Schumacher was 25 so Max needs to make his move now, he has the experience, he now has the car.

    I saw this same argument in American Football. Tom Brady has won the Super Bowl and unprecedented 7 times, the last time at the age of 43. He took a non-winning Buccaneers Team from nothing to winning the Super Bowl in just one season, this plagued by Covid-19 restrictions, this too is simply unprecedented in the NFL. Then there is a young player Pat Mahomes, a really, really good player, who has won one Super Bowl, the following year in the SB final he got a football lesson from Brady in a head to head matchup (Mahomes had the best team on paper). Despite being trounced, he is being touted by many the Greatest of all Time the "GOAT". You simply cannot have these two in the same conversation IMO. Yet the debate rages on.

    So as much as I like Max, we can only start discussing his greatness after a couple of world titles.

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  3. #2302
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Leigh View Post
    Lewis finished 2nd in his first season and won in his 2nd season, then he had a long wait when Mercedes went through a slump and scored a 5th, 4th, 5th, 4th and 4th so he knows what it's like to play second fiddle. Schumacher also took a while, 14th, 3rd 4th then WC for the next two years with Benneton before moving to Ferrari to develop the car. Schumacher's skill developed the Benneton into a world beater, no talk of if only he had a better car. He then took a non winning Ferrari and developed that into a world beater. Lewis was 23 when he first won the title, Schumacher was 25 so Max needs to make his move now, he has the experience, he now has the car.

    I saw this same argument in American Football. Tom Brady has won the Super Bowl and unprecedented 7 times, the last time at the age of 43. He took a non-winning Buccaneers Team from nothing to winning the Super Bowl in just one season, this plagued by Covid-19 restrictions, this too is simply unprecedented in the NFL. Then there is a young player Pat Mahomes, a really, really good player, who has won one Super Bowl, the following year in the SB final he got a football lesson from Brady in a head to head matchup (Mahomes had the best team on paper). Despite being trounced, he is being touted by many the Greatest of all Time the "GOAT". You simply cannot have these two in the same conversation IMO. Yet the debate rages on.

    So as much as I like Max, we can only start discussing his greatness after a couple of world titles.
    Lets look at the first quoted section above:
    - LH finished 2nd in his 1st year - but he had a Championship winning/title contending car
    - MSC, as you point out, 1st year was 14th - midfield car.

    - LH won in his 2nd year, same car.
    - MSC, as you pointed out, took 2 more years, before finally triumphing, but this comment stands out: "Schumacher's skill developed the Benneton into a world beater, no talk of if only he had a better car"

    - LH, in his 3rd year was up against Ross Brawn (Mercedes... and MB in the making) - we know how that went.
    - Still struggling in his McLaren for the next few years until Niki Lauda approached him to join MB when MSC leaves...

    - MSC, after Benetton: "before moving to Ferrari to develop the car"
    - Helps land first constructor title, (see aforementioned quote around car development) and we know what happened in the new few years.

    - MSC "moves to Mercedes works team (Petronas) to develop the car" - leaves and makes LH joins and finishes the season 4th (189 points) behind the all conquering RBR and 1xFerrari.
    - LH starts his dominance in a car, arguably a few steps up from its initial inception, and IMHO, started with Brawn-GP, further cemented by the likes of MSC, and then when the time came, they hit the track with might.

    So, given the breakdown above... "You simply cannot have these two in the same conversation IMO. Yet the debate rages on."

    Sorry, i just had to - the scarlet heart beats on, prancing even if we're watching from behind LOL
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  5. #2303
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Leigh View Post
    Make myself unpopular to the Max Fanboy Club.

    I am not sure how anyone can speak of Max and Lewis' greatness in the same sentence? One is a world champion 7 times over, the others best finishes are 3rd twice.

    Forgetting the car, record books record victories. Max I am sure could have signed other deals in his career but stuck with RBR and then elected to extend his RBR deal to 2023. Being a great driver is also about putting yourself into a winning team and keeping yourself there. Max had an offer in 2014 to join the Mercedes Driver Development Program, he chose not to. Bad tactical move? The car argument can be made for a couple of guys, what about Lando in a Mercedes or Charl?

    That Max may be a prodigious talent is a different story, at 23 he has lots of racing left in him but I cannot help but feel that time is running out. It looks like RBR is competitive this year so lets see what happens? I really like Max and would love to see him excel, but lets keep it real.

    Lewis finished 2nd in his first season and won in his 2nd season, then he had a long wait when Mercedes went through a slump and scored a 5th, 4th, 5th, 4th and 4th so he knows what it's like to play second fiddle. Schumacher also took a while, 14th, 3rd 4th then WC for the next two years with Benneton before moving to Ferrari to develop the car. Schumacher's skill developed the Benneton into a world beater, no talk of if only he had a better car. He then took a non winning Ferrari and developed that into a world beater. Lewis was 23 when he first won the title, Schumacher was 25 so Max needs to make his move now, he has the experience, he now has the car.

    I saw this same argument in American Football. Tom Brady has won the Super Bowl and unprecedented 7 times, the last time at the age of 43. He took a non-winning Buccaneers Team from nothing to winning the Super Bowl in just one season, this plagued by Covid-19 restrictions, this too is simply unprecedented in the NFL. Then there is a young player Pat Mahomes, a really, really good player, who has won one Super Bowl, the following year in the SB final he got a football lesson from Brady in a head to head matchup (Mahomes had the best team on paper). Despite being trounced, he is being touted by many the Greatest of all Time the "GOAT". You simply cannot have these two in the same conversation IMO. Yet the debate rages on.

    So as much as I like Max, we can only start discussing his greatness after a couple of world titles.
    Your view I respect, very much so. But I retain the privilige to voice my take on Max's "greatness" at any time.

    F1 is a very fluid enviroment - to say Max should maybe have joined the MB development program back in 2014 is a bit after the fact now.

    Anyhow, the only car/team (often mooted by now) that could have given Max a shot at the title these last few seasons was the Merc (team). Imagine Lewis "allowing" Max as teammate. Not in a 1000 years.

    So Max defaulted to the next best - RBR. Or am I missing something?

    Again, I enjoy your posts, this is not a "bitch" at your post, just me covering for my man😇😇.
    Jaco Nell

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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    I just think that Max is a better driver than Hamilton at the moment. Hamilton is excellent. MV just better.

    Why? Because currently the RBR is off the pace of the Merc, yet Max still sticks the car into 2nd place and once for a win. Even sometimes with questionable tactics from his team, he still manages to sort of keep up with the Mercedes.

    LH commenting after a race "that was hard work". Pointing to the fact that even in the faster car, with better tactics, he had to work hard to keep a slower red bull from winning.
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  9. #2305
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by IcePick88 View Post
    I just think that Max is a better driver than Hamilton at the moment. Hamilton is excellent. MV just better.

    Why? Because currently the RBR is off the pace of the Merc, yet Max still sticks the car into 2nd place and once for a win. Even sometimes with questionable tactics from his team, he still manages to sort of keep up with the Mercedes.

    LH commenting after a race "that was hard work". Pointing to the fact that even in the faster car, with better tactics, he had to work hard to keep a slower red bull from winning.
    "RB is off the pace of the Merc" ?
    "... slower red bull"?

    My take is that between a better driver and race strategy, MB beat a faster car.
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by 4ePajero View Post
    "RB is off the pace of the Merc" ?
    "... slower red bull"?

    My take is that between a better driver and race strategy, MB beat a faster car.
    If RBR is faster than the Mercedes, is Perez such a dud driver that is was almost a second off the pace in qualifying and almost a minute behind the leaders after the chequered flag?

    Mercedes likes to say they had to beat a faster car, but that is all smoke and mirror's.
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by IcePick88 View Post
    If RBR is faster than the Mercedes, is Perez such a dud driver that is was almost a second off the pace in qualifying and almost a minute behind the leaders after the chequered flag?

    Mercedes likes to say they had to beat a faster car, but that is all smoke and mirror's.
    agreed, 3 stop strategy was slower than a 2 stop plus you give up track position on a track notoriously difficult to overtake on, yet LH could simply close the gap to Max by 1.5sec a lap and simply cruised past.

    Great strategy and very good drive by LH, but to claim they did not have the fastest car is just ridiculous
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by IcePick88 View Post
    If RBR is faster than the Mercedes, is Perez such a dud driver that is was almost a second off the pace in qualifying and almost a minute behind the leaders after the chequered flag?

    Mercedes likes to say they had to beat a faster car, but that is all smoke and mirror's.
    I stumbled on a thought on Sunday that had me deeply concerned. What if Mercedes and RBR have designed their cars "inadvertently" in favour of their preferred driver? To the extent that any driver in the second car is unable to maximise performance.

    GR putting on a good show in the Mercedes kind of dumps some water on that theory but I think it might be a big problem for RBR.
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  17. #2309
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    After seeing what Russel did in the MB last year, any achievement by either LH or VB is pretty dull.

    I agree though, Max handicapped himself by signing until 2023 - unless something miraculously happens next year.

    Don't you all think the BLM before every race is now grossly overplayed? Or will it stay until the queen's had enough of it?

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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by willben View Post
    I stumbled on a thought on Sunday that had me deeply concerned. What if Mercedes and RBR have designed their cars "inadvertently" in favour of their preferred driver? To the extent that any driver in the second car is unable to maximise performance.

    GR putting on a good show in the Mercedes kind of dumps some water on that theory but I think it might be a big problem for RBR.
    Maybe, but a team needs both cars to perform to claim the constructors championship.

    You cannot win that with only one car performing well.
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Morne - Skip View Post
    After seeing what Russel did in the MB last year, any achievement by either LH or VB is pretty dull.

    I agree though, Max handicapped himself by signing until 2023 - unless something miraculously happens next year.

    Don't you all think the BLM before every race is now grossly overplayed? Or will it stay until the queen's had enough of it?
    I always have this picture in my head when LH is out in front.

    Him with one hand on the wheel and taking a selfie with the other.
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Morne - Skip View Post
    Don't you all think the BLM before every race is now grossly overplayed? Or will it stay until the queen's had enough of it?
    I agree, but it does not bother me - I basically ignore it.

    (Is it not similar to Steve Hofmeyer's antics about the Boer and Afrikaans?
    It is very (consumingly so) important to him.
    I understand his passion, even though I don't quite share it).
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by willben View Post
    I stumbled on a thought on Sunday that had me deeply concerned. What if Mercedes and RBR have designed their cars "inadvertently" in favour of their preferred driver? To the extent that any driver in the second car is unable to maximise performance.

    GR putting on a good show in the Mercedes kind of dumps some water on that theory but I think it might be a big problem for RBR.
    Not a theory at all. It happens.

    Which just indicates how much pace there lives in Russel. He could not really fit in the cockpit of the MB, even had to go down one shoesize. Yet, he came out smoking hot......

    Both Lewis and Max are princes' in their little F1 universes. What they want from their teams they get - including a car designed to suit them.

    Have no doubt, if Max ever waves RBR goodbye or Lewis finally retire - rest assured both Toto and Christian are going to experience serious "gemoedsbe...ings".
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Interesting to see the statement shift after only a handful of races this season.

    We had concluded that RB was the fastes car and the team to beat that season after Bahrain, and quite obviously MB had to play catch up.
    Which they did and in the meantime I would say the two cars are at par both in handling and on straight line speed.

    It has taken MB just 3 races to compensate for the low rake disadvantage created by the new regulations limiting the rear downforce.

    Now all of a sudden the RB is the "slower" car in the above arguments, how come?

    I think it is safe to conclude that the two cars are at par and the difference in results is down to strategy and race craft which shifts strongly towards MB and particularly to LH.

    As good as Max is and the praises are pre-empting the results in the statistics, Max still need to achieve at least 2 WDC to be considered in the same league with LH.

    Of course this could be a lot easier once LH has hung up his helmet, which I hope it is not to soon .

    Now the immediate future:

    2022 will be a new chapter with different specs cars, tyres and all so the cards will be re-shuffled.

    2025 will see the era of new power trains by which time the RB engine should be a well oiled machinery and produce a competitive package and this with the help of a variety of then Ex- MB engineers.
    The consent seems to be that this engine will be beating the AMG (MB) power train which of course is wishful thinking.

    This leads to conclude that Max dominance will not happen anytime soon then MB is not sitting idle, but they are capable in development of a new chassis and power train in appropriate time.

    So I wait and see when and if Max' time will come to run away with multiple titles, but given the above time line (2025) it will be a bit late for him to start counting the WDC trophies.
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by mullerza View Post
    agreed, 3 stop strategy was slower than a 2 stop plus you give up track position on a track notoriously difficult to overtake on, yet LH could simply close the gap to Max by 1.5sec a lap and simply cruised past.

    Great strategy and very good drive by LH, but to claim they did not have the fastest car is just ridiculous
    That is exactly the magic of MB - and it is really magic. When they need it, they just turn up the wick. Trully amazing - my hat is lifted high to them for this (and it hurts admitting).

    But forget what Martin / Jensen / Natalie and all the usual suspects have to say. Merc is the fastest car out there. Zero doubt. Al lot of the background noise around RB being the fastest is just the pundits trying to create a bit of a buzz. I am sure that RB will be faster at a select few tracks, but that is it. Problem is not that the RB is not fast - it is immensely fast - it is just the ease and elegance with which MB responds and then they are faster again....and again.....and again......
    Jaco Nell

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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by 4ePajero View Post
    I agree, but it does not bother me - I basically ignore it.

    (Is it not similar to Steve Hofmeyer's antics about the Boer and Afrikaans?
    It is very (consumingly so) important to him.
    I understand his passion, even though I don't quite share it).
    Who's steve hofmeyer?

    No but seriously, Steve's been going on his merry tantrums for YEARS now, Lewis jumped the bandwagon last year, if it was his passion, as with Steve, it would have raised it's ugly head long ago.

    But let's not digress.

    I just don't need Lewis in F1 anymore - I had to watch the race Sunday as my dad from Jbay is visiting and he still finds it entertaining, and while watching it I remembered why I haven't watched this year and lost the passion for it.

    I NEED russel in a better car, I NEED Mclaren to give Lando a whopper next year and I NEED someone to save Mick from ruining his racing career is that sad excuse of a team.

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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by jaconell View Post
    Merc is the fastest car out there. Zero doubt. Al lot of the background noise around RB being the fastest is just the pundits trying to create a bit of a buzz. I am sure that RB will be faster at a select few tracks, but that is it. Problem is not that the RB is not fast - it is immensely fast - it is just the ease and elegance with which MB responds and then they are faster again....and again.....and again......
    It is evident, on the races to date, that when the MB opens that rear wing, you can just see the speed advantage! And LH has that added craft of maximizing that advantage.
    Whoever believes that RBR is faster at the moment needs to calm down and just accept
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by N0ddy View Post
    Lets look at the first quoted section above:
    - LH finished 2nd in his 1st year - but he had a Championship winning/title contending car
    - MSC, as you point out, 1st year was 14th - midfield car.
    Just for the record, Michael also only did 6 GPs out of 16 in his first season, hence the low placing.

    He then managed to finish 3rd in his first full season while also scoring his first win.

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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Well gents, at least we have a lot to discuss and agree and disagree upon. F1 is alive as well as this thread. That is just lekker.
    Jaco Nell

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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    What is even more worrying, is that Hamilton has had his best start yet to a season in the Mercedes:

    2013 - First 4 races: 50 points
    2014 - First 4 races: 75 points
    2015 - First 4 races: 93 points
    2016 - First 4 races: 57 points
    2017 - First 4 races: 73 points
    2018 - First 4 races: 70 points
    2019 - First 4 races: 86 points
    2020 - First 4 races: 88 points (incl one for fastest lap)
    2021 - First 4 races: 94 points (incl one for fastest lap)

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