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Thread: F1 - 2021

  1. #381
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Orxy View Post
    Cool, thanks.
    1) I was surprised to find actual gears in there :-)
    2) Clearly illustrated the sequential nature of the gearbox. I believe Ferrari (during those years) had a box that was "pre-programmed" to gear down for corners, but was subsequently out-lawed. When Massa was struck in the head by that flying piece of suspension, on the TV replays, one could hear the gearbox going down through the gears as the car slowed down with an unconscious pilot at the helm. I was surprised that nobody picked up on that at the time, because it hinted at automatic (illegal) down shifting.
    3) Can't help but wonder how much has changed since that 1997 gearbox mounted on a normally aspirated 3.0L V8 Cosworth engine, and today's setup with hybrid power.

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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Correction: I have looked at that Massa accident again. What sounded like down-gearing may just be the car bouncing over a curb, because one of the videos I found had on-screen telemetry and it shows the Ferrari to remain in 7th gear.

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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Copied from my Kindle:
    "There is another technology that has emerged in recent years, most prominently in Formula One, with 2 gears engaged at once to reduce the lost time between gear shifts."
    Further down:
    "We have a mechanical system called IGS, for instantaneous gearshift because that’s what it is. With our ‘instantaneous’ it is 2 gears engaged at once, it is seamless.” What is unusual about the new Xtrac seamless IGS system is that it does not rely upon hydraulic or pneumatic actuation. Andrew – “There are different ways to achieve this, and with a Formula One box for example, when they are working there is no reason that there would be any more wear than with a conventional F1 gearbox. But there are massive levels of control required. The hydraulics that they do the shifts with responds very quickly and accurately with the moving parts. You are engaging 2 gears at once, and if you don’t pull out the original gear quickly enough, you get a catastrophic failure. It is very much dependent upon the speed and accuracy of the 4000 psi hydraulic system. The way Formula One does it is elegant, but absolutely not practical for anything beyond motorsport. They use the high pressure hydraulics for changing gear and for control of the differential. The externally adjustable differential allows adjustment to the preload setting in the diff, to change the characteristic in the corners. It is something we have done for many years, and has been done traditionally by a mechanical adjuster. You’d push a gear in through a port in the side of the gearbox to wind up the preload on the plates. Formula One has fully active differentials, run off the hydraulic pressure. It was like that in WRC Rally cars as well, but they’ve dumbed down their rules a lot.” Andrew Heard - “In general, rules changes in Formula One are good for us, as we get to do something new again. Today the gear widths are regulated, 14mm, just over ½”. Before they were regulated, some of the gears were down to about ¼”… reliable for a race (as in one). That’s all they have to do, there were not these 4 race transmission regulations. We had done tremendous amounts of work to optimize every gear ratio so that it could be the minimum mass that it could possibly be; it was a massive project for us. Now they are talking about 9 speed transmissions where the ratios are fixed, and where you have to run the same transmission for 4 or 5 races. At Monaco, you might only use the first 6 gears…” Xtrac has branched out into more than gearbox components in F1. Andrew – “This year, for one of the teams we are doing the entire system, transmission casing and hydraulics as well. It was an area we weren’t sure we wanted to get into, but have learned huge amounts from it. We needed a clean room, and the logistics of it…” Have the hydraulically actuated F1 transmission designs been incorporated into Sports Car racing? Andrew - “I believe the current rules would allow them in Endurance racing, but I’m not sure if they would last for a 12 or 24 hour race. A lot of the retirements in F1 are down to hydraulic failure. If you go with lower pressure hydraulics, then everything gets more reliable, but it gets bigger and heavier. Then you’ve got such a weight penalty for that system that I don’t think the benefits would be worth the negatives, especially when there are other ways to do it.” Has the 4000psi impact pressure of the F1 hydraulic actuated gearbox been an issue simply due to the impact loads on the gearbox internals? Andrew – “That can be an issue with hydraulic. That’s one of the reasons we use pneumatic 100-150psi in Indycar. It gives that cushion, that compressibility that you don’t have with hydraulic fluid. It’s a very similar system; the reliability of the system is just fantastic.” Is the shift time significantly compromised between the 4000psi hydraulic actuation vs. the 150psi pneumatic"?Name:  Screenshot_20210117-163217_Kindle.jpg
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    Last edited by RoelfleRoux; 2021/01/17 at 04:33 PM.

  4. #384
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by RoelfleRoux View Post
    Copied from my Kindle:
    "There is another technology that has emerged in recent years, most prominently in Formula One, with 2 gears engaged at once to reduce the lost time between gear shifts."
    Citroën had a very similar "pre-select" system in the late 60's and 70's...
    Ettienne de Kock

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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Most of the Dual clutch gearboxes in production cars also select two gears in order to make the shift quicker.

    What I have never been able to understand (and it relates to the F1 box as well), so you are in 4th, with 5th already selected, now you decide to gear down to 3rd.

    So is that change now going to be very slow compared to an upshift?

    C
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  6. #386
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by C Africa View Post
    Most of the Dual clutch gearboxes in production cars also select two gears in order to make the shift quicker.

    What I have never been able to understand (and it relates to the F1 box as well), so you are in 4th, with 5th already selected, now you decide to gear down to 3rd.

    So is that change now going to be very slow compared to an upshift?

    C
    Exactly. Would like to know as well. As it goes for F1 'boxes as well, not really OT?
    Jaco Nell

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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Last edited by Orxy; 2021/01/19 at 11:03 AM.
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  9. #388
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Lewis Hamilton's new F1 contract plan 'shattered' - Albers https://www.news24.com/wheels/formul...lbers-20210119
    This was my point earlier. How can the Board justify paying so much for Sir Lewis, when Russel proved (no speculation here) that he can do the same job for a fraction of the cost.
    Come on gents, many of you will know that in corporate life if you approach the board for money for a big project or a serious piece of equipment, that you need your ducks in a row to show them all the other options that you considered and what the cost and outcome of those options will look like.
    With Russel doing exactly what Sir Lewis would have done on the weekend, which is to help lockout the front row and then to take a commanding lead in the race, how can the board even think that they would live up to their fiduciary duty by giving in to Hamilton's demands.
    PS: Hamilton has only one card up his sleeve, and that is the race card. Mercedes-Benz must decide how much damage that can do, or how much money do they need to throw at the issue to manage the potential fall-out. Or they can consider it a form of extortion and get really hardegat. The Germans I've worked or dealt with over the years will not take kindly to any form of coercion.
    Last edited by RoelfleRoux; 2021/01/20 at 02:47 AM.

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  11. #389
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by RoelfleRoux View Post
    Lewis Hamilton's new F1 contract plan 'shattered' - Albers https://www.news24.com/wheels/formul...lbers-20210119
    This was my point earlier. How can the Board justify paying so much for Sir Lewis, when Russel proved (no speculation here) that he can do the same job for a fraction of the cost.
    Come on gents, many of you will know that in corporate life if you approach the board for money for a big project or a serious piece of equipment, that you need your ducks in a row to show them all the other options that you considered and what the cost and outcome of those options will look like.
    With Russel doing exactly what Sir Lewis would have done on the weekend, which is to help lockout the front row and then to take a commanding lead in the race, how can the board even think that they would live up to their fiduciary duty by giving in to Hamilton's demands.
    PS: Hamilton has only one card up his sleeve, and that is the race card. Mercedes-Benz must decide how much damage that can do, or how much money do they need to throw at the issue to manage the potential fall-out. Or they can consider it a form of extortion and get really hardegat. The Germans I've worked or dealt with over the years will not take kindly to any form of coercion.
    Fully agreed. Sir Lewis has done himself no favours. Is he losing touch with reality just a bit?

    Even if everybody ends up signing, I have to speculate that it will be a 1-year deal and the last one at that. MB bosses must be fuming. I am starting to think the reputational damage by giving in to Sir Lewis' demands maybe even more than showing him the door.

    I will certainly have a good chuckle if Sir Lewis gets bombed. That will be the end of him and all his own doing.

    The only regret I will have, the racing fan in me would have loved seeing GR63 as his teammate, and Max having a car underneath him that would really allow him to go toe-to-toe with Sir Lewis.

    But they will probably sign, if only to avoid becoming the full-on laughing stock of the F1 world. Things is, their exists a disconnect between what Sir Lewis "preaches" and what is going on currently. Being concerned about the enviroment, being vegan etc. etc., but also making really big demands (now if he makes big demands because he gives all his his money to Greenpeace,the SPCA, BLM movement, sustainable farming practice research etc, its cool - but he doesn't). And really, it is not like he has to budget when he goes grocery shopping.

    I will even say this is why I have always admired Lewis but never liked him. There is an underlying sense of "falseness" to what is happening. I am surprised MB has even entertained all of this in a sport facing serious budget cuts, a world out there bleeding with a pandemic and so on. Typing this I actually realize I hope those Germans dig in and show him the door. And please, the argument that he is a proven race-winner really has little bearing on all of this. It is about reality.

    If the above a bit harsh, its because the neighbours dog just woke me........
    Jaco Nell

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  13. #390
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by RoelfleRoux View Post
    Lewis Hamilton's new F1 contract plan 'shattered' - Albers https://www.news24.com/wheels/formul...lbers-20210119
    This was my point earlier. How can the Board justify paying so much for Sir Lewis, when Russel proved (no speculation here) that he can do the same job for a fraction of the cost.
    Come on gents, many of you will know that in corporate life if you approach the board for money for a big project or a serious piece of equipment, that you need your ducks in a row to show them all the other options that you considered and what the cost and outcome of those options will look like.
    With Russel doing exactly what Sir Lewis would have done on the weekend, which is to help lockout the front row and then to take a commanding lead in the race, how can the board even think that they would live up to their fiduciary duty by giving in to Hamilton's demands.
    PS: Hamilton has only one card up his sleeve, and that is the race card. Mercedes-Benz must decide how much damage that can do, or how much money do they need to throw at the issue to manage the potential fall-out. Or they can consider it a form of extortion and get really hardegat. The Germans I've worked or dealt with over the years will not take kindly to any form of coercion.
    This article has a lot of speculation though. For one thing Albers doesn't have a clue what is being negotiated and neither does the reporter.
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  15. #391
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by willben View Post
    This article has a lot of speculation though. For one thing Albers doesn't have a clue what is being negotiated and neither does the reporter.
    Point well noted. I think the speculation component is big concerning this right now, but the salient fact is we are less than 60 days from "lights out.... and its go!" (can't wait). Not having signed yet clearly indicates problematic negotiations and it can only be money or term of contract.

    If it is money - Sir Lewis probably wanting more.

    If it is term of contract - would anybody in their right mind give a multi-year deal to a driver that is already 36 AND you have chaps like GR63 salivating for a shot at the big time.

    So, in essence, lots of speculation, but I will venture the "haakvas" is Sir Lewis. With a team that has given him everything and then some.

    And from there it must a sheer insult to MB that they cannot conclude this issue. I think there will be an anouncement within days or this is going to blow up. Not a difficult prediction, really nothing else that can happen.
    Jaco Nell

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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    I think:
    1. Half of this for the 'show'
    2. Everyone is speculating, especially the press.
    3. Why can't he ask for the $$$ - the top sportsmen are earning double (Messi/Ronaldo)
    4. One swallow don't make a summer.......
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    I saw probably 18 or 19 flocks of swallows the other day, is it safe to speculate it is currently summer?

    Input would be appreciated.
    Sent from my iPhone


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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtshark View Post
    I think:
    1. Half of this for the 'show'
    2. Everyone is speculating, especially the press.
    3. Why can't he ask for the $$$ - the top sportsmen are earning double (Messi/Ronaldo)
    4. One swallow don't make a summer.......
    Again, valid points.

    Not a show Toto will enjoy though, I think (speculate&#128519

    Messi/Ronaldo and the likes getting paid silly money - but you never really hear too much about them dragging their feet signing. Also, F1 as a whole, really need to show intent around budget caps and money saving. Soccer and the likes can pay the big money because it is all payroll related, not too much tech that needs money. F1 teams have to spend vast sums on factories, materials, r&d, travelling and massive payrolls.

    Anyhow, lets wait and see.........
    Jaco Nell

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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    It all comes down to greed from Hamilton, the average Joe in F1, give the contract to Russel, i am sure he will be happy with a $6M contract and will do better.

    BTW, Renaldo / Messi, they DO have talent.
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtshark View Post
    I think:
    1. Half of this for the 'show'
    2. Everyone is speculating, especially the press.
    3. Why can't he ask for the $$$ - the top sportsmen are earning double (Messi/Ronaldo)
    4. One swallow don't make a summer.......
    I can't remember that there was any drama relating to Schumacher signing new contracts.

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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Predator View Post
    It all comes down to greed from Hamilton, the average Joe in F1, give the contract to Russel, i am sure he will be happy with a $6M contract and will do better.

    BTW, Renaldo / Messi, they DO have talent.
    So it was greed for Schumacher back then.......?
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtshark View Post
    So it was greed for Schumacher back then.......?

    Nope, he had talent to justify his contract.
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by RoelfleRoux View Post
    Lewis Hamilton's new F1 contract plan 'shattered' - Albers https://www.news24.com/wheels/formul...lbers-20210119
    This was my point earlier. How can the Board justify paying so much for Sir Lewis, when Russel proved (no speculation here) that he can do the same job for a fraction of the cost.
    Come on gents, many of you will know that in corporate life if you approach the board for money for a big project or a serious piece of equipment, that you need your ducks in a row to show them all the other options that you considered and what the cost and outcome of those options will look like.
    With Russel doing exactly what Sir Lewis would have done on the weekend, which is to help lockout the front row and then to take a commanding lead in the race, how can the board even think that they would live up to their fiduciary duty by giving in to Hamilton's demands.
    PS: Hamilton has only one card up his sleeve, and that is the race card. Mercedes-Benz must decide how much damage that can do, or how much money do they need to throw at the issue to manage the potential fall-out. Or they can consider it a form of extortion and get really hardegat. The Germans I've worked or dealt with over the years will not take kindly to any form of coercion.
    Sir Hamilton has played this so well, you are bang on here!!

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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Predator View Post
    It all comes down to greed from Hamilton, the average Joe in F1, give the contract to Russel, i am sure he will be happy with a $6M contract and will do better.

    BTW, Renaldo / Messi, they DO have talent.
    In Renaldo/Messi’s case, they are paid the big bucks as they don’t have the ball doing the ‘driving’ in the net. It is their pure talent.

    Russel showed it perfectly, give a ‘good’ driver the best car by far (of a second faster than the nearest rival) and he will perform. That ‘mythbuster’ exercise was done and Russel proved it.
    Sent from my iPhone


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