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Thread: F1 - 2021

  1. #3821
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by jaconell View Post
    Please do not make me do this......come to Lewis' defence.

    Hammertime this past weekend damn near did the trick. With 5 laps to go I doubted a Max win very much. You cannot look at F1 through a straw, have to see the whole picture.
    The race was basically lost (from a Merc standpoint) when Max could erase Lewis' 3 second lead during the first round of pitstops. Look at Max's in and out laps compared to Lewis' two laps and this was after Bono asked for Hammertime. This was where Lewis was supposed to give his all and use all the pace available to him as the undercut was a real threat.

    Hammertime was not enough in that instance and it cost him the race.

  2. #3822
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by handyman View Post
    Hammertime was when Verstappen pitted and Hamilton was hunting quick laps. It did not work though.
    The pace Lewis extracted from old tyres towards the end of the race was pure Hammertime to me. But yes, I hear you. I shall not be guilty of starting another senseless debate on this here fine thread😇😇😇
    Jaco Nell

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  4. #3823
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by 4ePajero View Post
    Everybody is adding to the reasons for RB's win, as well as reading a lot between the lines, eg
    MB is showing cracks. Can't argue that.
    LH is past his best. Possibly, but more likely just lost "next level" car advantage.
    RB has a much faster car. Merc was actually faster at this circuit, but similar enough to race properly now.
    etc

    IMHO it was nothing more than a strategic gable which MB took, which nearly paid off.
    If it did work (which it nearly did), it would have been apllauded as a masterpiece of strategy. Merc did not take a strategic gamble, they made a strategic blunder, a stuff up, an uncharacteristic mistake, just admit it. Had they listened to Lewis and made their second stop before Max, they may have had a chance, but they got it wrong, that is what happens when you are under pressure.

    On similar tyres, the MB was quicker than the RB. True.

    Max and the RB are fast, but they did not win "by a mile".
    No, but they won with smart strategy.
    Last edited by TOY4X4; 2021/06/23 at 03:45 PM.

  5. #3824
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by TOY4X4 View Post
    No, but they won with smart strategy.
    As MB did earlier this year!!!!
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  6. #3825
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoFrans View Post
    As MB did earlier this year!!!!
    No argument there, and MB have been the masters of strategy for years, but this week end the pressure got to them and they dropped the ball.

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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by TOY4X4 View Post
    No argument there, and MB have been the masters of strategy for years, but this week end the pressure got to them and they dropped the ball.
    Thing is, Merc had flexibility on their side up to now. They could open up a gap between themselves and the midfield, with only Max sometimes able to live with their pace. As such they had a huge advantage in that they could be flexible with strategy as they usually had a gap where they could feed back into the race after pitstops and Valtteri would block Max from doing the same. The moment Red Bull have two cars close enough to stop Merc from opening the required gap, it massively curtails their ability to run an aggressive strategy (or change it mid race).

    In my opinion this is what cost them hugely on Sunday as they were not convinced if they went for a two stopper, that they would be able to pass Perez again to go after Max. They were basically stuck on their initial strategy and had to just depend on Lewis and Valtteri to drive the wheels of the cars for a result.

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  9. #3827
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by JS-V8 View Post
    Thing is, Merc had flexibility on their side up to now. They could open up a gap between themselves and the midfield, with only Max sometimes able to live with their pace. As such they had a huge advantage in that they could be flexible with strategy as they usually had a gap where they could feed back into the race after pitstops and Valtteri would block Max from doing the same. The moment Red Bull have two cars close enough to stop Merc from opening the required gap, it massively curtails their ability to run an aggressive strategy (or change it mid race).

    In my opinion this is what cost them hugely on Sunday as they were not convinced if they went for a two stopper, that they would be able to pass Perez again to go after Max. They were basically stuck on their initial strategy and had to just depend on Lewis and Valtteri to drive the wheels of the cars for a result.
    Yes.
    That is a good assessment. Full marks to Perez.
    Still, Lewis almost achieved the impossible by keeping those old tyres motoring. He is, and always will be, a worthy world champion. I do however think Max and Red Bull may finally have what it takes to square up to those black Silver Arrows

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  11. #3828
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Serf View Post
    Bottas' future, whether with MB or another manufacturer is in his own hands. He must push LH as hard as possible as his future with MB does not depend on him being Mr Nice Guy.

    Other manufacturers will also be more interested to sign him up if he has that attitude.
    My guess will be Williams.
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  12. #3829
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Not sure if anyone else has noticed this, but the big difference between RB and Merc lately is the ability of RB to put heat into its tyres QUICKLY.

    This makes the pitstops (over cutting or undercutting) crucially in favour of RB. Over and above this, Max's speed and accuracy on an out lap, plus the fact that RB is just better at making stops. (Partly now due to the homologous parts Merc have to make do with, after machining that Nut on Bottas's car.

    This makes things very interesting.
    Mercs are faster in the later stints being able to preserve tyres. (Especially harder tyres)
    RB are faster around the crucial pit stop phases.

    I suggest Merc look to gun for low drag setups to help them overtake on track more.....

    Andrew Shovlin, are you hearing this?

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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by JS-V8 View Post
    The race was basically lost (from a Merc standpoint) when Max could erase Lewis' 3 second lead during the first round of pitstops. Look at Max's in and out laps compared to Lewis' two laps and this was after Bono asked for Hammertime. This was where Lewis was supposed to give his all and use all the pace available to him as the undercut was a real threat.

    Hammertime was not enough in that instance and it cost him the race.
    Lewis's pit stop was 1 second slower if I'm not mistaken, had Merc matched the RB pitstop time that could have decided the race, as Hamilton would have come out just ahead of Max, and if he might have kept Max behind for just 1 lap that may have given Lewis victory. Very very fine margins. Merc are hardly in trouble. I feel Redbull are at their peak, at the limit, and yet can still only just pip Merc who are not quite where they want to be, and with a nr 2 who is not performing. RB will need a few more races where things go their way as there are more tracks that should favour Merc than RB left on the calendar
    Last edited by Kariba; 2021/06/24 at 08:18 AM.

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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by shady View Post
    Not sure if anyone else has noticed this, but the big difference between RB and Merc lately is the ability of RB to put heat into its tyres QUICKLY.

    This makes the pitstops (over cutting or undercutting) crucially in favour of RB. Over and above this, Max's speed and accuracy on an out lap, plus the fact that RB is just better at making stops. (Partly now due to the homologous parts Merc have to make do with, after machining that Nut on Bottas's car.

    This makes things very interesting.
    Mercs are faster in the later stints being able to preserve tyres. (Especially harder tyres)
    RB are faster around the crucial pit stop phases.

    I suggest Merc look to gun for low drag setups to help them overtake on track more.....

    Andrew Shovlin, are you hearing this?

    I have to agree with you Shady, and I'm sure Merc have realised this, but what can they do about it? I don't think they thought in their wildest dreams that RB would be this quick, and now they need to scramble to find some sort of advantage again.

    The problem with going for low drag setups, is that you compromise yourself in the corners, which could negate their advantage re conserving the tyres. RB's strength in France was that they were able to take downforce off the car by still be decent enough around the corners so as not to put Merc at an advantage again. The tyre wear wasn't too different between the two (albeit Merc was still better), and Merc just couldn't get by on the straights.

    If RB goes for that approach again in Austria (which one would expect given the straights there), it'll be very interesting to see how Merc respond

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  16. #3832
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Mercedes always had a second per lap in hand, and that gave them a lot of flexibility in their strategy, and they could outdrive a poor strategy decision.

    They no longer have that second per lap and non optimal strategy decisions can no longer be hidden, and its putting pressure on the Merc team for a change.

    The spectators are the real winners in all of this.

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  18. #3833
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Kariba View Post
    Lewis's pit stop was 1 second slower if I'm not mistaken, had Merc matched the RB pitstop time that could have decided the race, as Hamilton would have come out just ahead of Max, and if he might have kept Max behind for just 1 lap that may have given Lewis victory. Very very fine margins. Merc are hardly in trouble. I feel Redbull are at their peak, at the limit, and yet can still only just pip Merc who are not quite where they want to be, and with a nr 2 who is not performing. RB will need a few more races where things go their way as there are more tracks that should favour Merc than RB left on the calendar
    Lewis' stop (in total, not just the time stopped at the garage) was about 0.5 slower than Max. The actual time stopped, from memory, was about 0.2 sec slower. If you watch the Merc debrief on Youtube, Shovlin actually says that Lewis had a bit of an issue with his approach to the pit box, as well as wheelspin when pulling away again, so team and driver both contributed to that 0.5 seconds... Whether that would have been enough to keep Max at bay into the first corner I suppose we'll never know

    https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/20/...mes-and-tyres/

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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Even after all the discussion, I still cannot believe that Max passed LH after the pitstop! I could not believe my eyes! LH was if I remember correctly, almost 3 seconds ahead of Max when he went into the pits. Max must have had a very good lap! I think LH was dumbfounded!
    There is never a right time to do the wrong thing and never a wrong time to do the right thing!

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  21. #3835
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Kariba View Post
    Lewis's pit stop was 1 second slower if I'm not mistaken, had Merc matched the RB pitstop time that could have decided the race, as Hamilton would have come out just ahead of Max, and if he might have kept Max behind for just 1 lap that may have given Lewis victory. Very very fine margins. Merc are hardly in trouble. I feel Redbull are at their peak, at the limit, and yet can still only just pip Merc who are not quite where they want to be, and with a nr 2 who is not performing. RB will need a few more races where things go their way as there are more tracks that should favour Merc than RB left on the calendar
    I was under the impression that Paul Ricard was a Merc track...

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  23. #3836
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Francois Theron View Post
    Even after all the discussion, I still cannot believe that Max passed LH after the pitstop! I could not believe my eyes! LH was if I remember correctly, almost 3 seconds ahead of Max when he went into the pits. Max must have had a very good lap! I think LH was dumbfounded!
    "Hamer time" has just found a new custodian.........the British commentators are clearly not that impressed or they may have considered passing on the message.
    Last edited by TOY4X4; 2021/06/24 at 08:44 AM.

  24. #3837
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou07 View Post
    I have to agree with you Shady, and I'm sure Merc have realised this, but what can they do about it? I don't think they thought in their wildest dreams that RB would be this quick, and now they need to scramble to find some sort of advantage again.

    The problem with going for low drag setups, is that you compromise yourself in the corners, which could negate their advantage re conserving the tyres. RB's strength in France was that they were able to take downforce off the car by still be decent enough around the corners so as not to put Merc at an advantage again. The tyre wear wasn't too different between the two (albeit Merc was still better), and Merc just couldn't get by on the straights.

    If RB goes for that approach again in Austria (which one would expect given the straights there), it'll be very interesting to see how Merc respond
    Exactly.

    If you can get a car in front that is a bit slower in the corners but faster on the straights - it becomes a very hard car to pass. A slower car through the corners just strangles a quicker car that is behind, as there is very little merit for the car behind to go off the racing line or to follow too close. Try that and tyrelife goes out then window. In this respect it has been advantage RB lately (I was surprised too see how hard those RB's run on the straight. Those Honda ponnies have serious breeding).

    RB is also managing the peripheral issues very well at the moment - especially pitstops.

    Max is also doing his part with amazing reaction time when the lights go out and together with Danny R he has developed into a late braker of note. Add all together and we have a magnificent year.

    Obviously I will go totally gooniegoogle if Max wins the Championship, but if the last race becomes the decider and Lewis grabs it again - well, I will still be immensely pleased.

    I just hope that neither suffers from DNF's due to mechanical failure. It is a cruel thing. But I must say, the current cars are as bulletproof as a F1 car can be.
    Jaco Nell

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  26. #3838
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    We are witness to a wonderful and memorable season. Action and controversy is happening all down the grid and off the track. The racing is immense and any shortcoming is dramatically exposed. The warriors on track can't afford to even contemplate tyre conservation and stuff like that. If you let your pace slip for one lap you get mugged by two, three cars.
    If you compare the MotoGP race on Sunday to the F1 race immediately after - no comparison (can you believe that?). Only Brad Binder's fight up the field was exciting. Sure, I am in awe of the rider's bravery and skill. But, for pure non-stop action - tune into the next F1 race!

  27. #3839
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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Quote Originally Posted by RoelfleRoux View Post
    We are witness to a wonderful and memorable season. Action and controversy is happening all down the grid and off the track. The racing is immense and any shortcoming is dramatically exposed. The warriors on track can't afford to even contemplate tyre conservation and stuff like that. If you let your pace slip for one lap you get mugged by two, three cars.
    If you compare the MotoGP race on Sunday to the F1 race immediately after - no comparison (can you believe that?). Only Brad Binder's fight up the field was exciting. Sure, I am in awe of the rider's bravery and skill. But, for pure non-stop action - tune into the next F1 race!
    So true (the 2 wheel brigade is going to be here shortly.......😆&#128518

    Even with Mighty Max on the rise, I am not at all sure we are all poised for another era of 1 driver domination.

    I will go so far as to say that there is only 1 driver over 28 years old on the grid currently that may grab a Championship in the next few years - and that is Lewis (and it will have to be this year).

    Too many young Banshees coming through, the oldest being Sainz at 26, and they are going to be hell on wheels for years to come.

    Max, Lec, Lando, Sainz, Gasly, Russel (cautiously add Schumacher & Ocon. Tsunoda, he will have to show me some mol. Stroll, just do not know, but doubt it).

    I have seldom seen such a collection of young talent in F1 - in fact, never. If we can get cars that are fairly closely matched the next few years - we are in for great fun.
    Jaco Nell

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    Default Re: F1 - 2021

    Maybe I have a limited understanding of economics, but to me it is amazing that teams such as Williams and Haas are SO FAR behind in overall budget terms.

    What's the budget cap for next year? $150 mil? I know it's a gell of a lot of money, but I would have thought that there would be enough interest out there to fully fund 10 teams. Once again, I know it's a massive amount, but overall teams expenses of $1.5 billion does not seem out of kelter given the massive amounts the TV rights must generate?
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