Who still gets a Bonus? - Page 7





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  1. #121
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Estee View Post
    So which of those roles is the money shot? The role that brings in value to your business? Why are you being paid to do non-productive roles?

    If you take the revenue generating roles that you perform and the value those roles bring in over a period and then take the time you spend on the non-revenue generating roles like Admin, HR etc, how much more revenue could you bring in?

    If you are as good as I think you are then I would be using you at the sharp end of the stick 100% of the time and giving that functional tat to some lesser intern or clerk. This is precisely my point. You now have to make up the revenue generating time that you spent on no value activities.
    I truly get what you are saying but just hang on a minute.

    In a normal business day, a professional like Aviator can bill approx 6 out of the 8 hours (I am assuming that is the case - Aviator correct me if I am wrong). The remaining two hours is spent taking a piss every now and then, replying to e-mails, setting up meetings, taking lunch etc. Some of these tasks cannot be outsourced to employees. If he has to bill 150 hours a month, he will at some stage have to work afterhours.
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  2. #122
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    I just realised: I will have to work late tonight because of all the time I spent on this thread today.
    Cheers
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  4. #123
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Estee View Post
    You never, ever sell a part of your business unless it is to an ''investor'' who puts real skin in the game, money, ever. And I personally am not interested in the time an employee or associate puts in but how much value they generate. Convert the reward component of that to shares by mutual agreement. In my experience, for every 1 value creator in a business, I can find a dozen people willing to put in time, whether it generates value or not.

    I think you will find that most worthwhile emplyees will not stick around with that attitude. Or worse, bugger off and compete with you. Your business will also die with you as there is no contingency plan to keep it going. If an employee you have known for some time (I am not talking about the secretary ens, but someone that can seemingly do what you do or heck maybe even more than you can or in different fields) gets given an opportunity to buy into the business (one way or another) why would they not also have skin in the game?
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracos13 View Post
    I can understand where you come from as Management, I do not know your setup etc but my experience is this, we sign performance agreements, in the agreement, your duties, deadlines etc is stated, lets not go to the performance bonus part, lets get to a very real problem in most businesses of South Africa:


    1. When you started in 2012, the company had 20 employees, everyone had their duties, since then 10 employees left.
    2. Because of budget constraints, the 10 posts was not filled again, instead, the workload of the 10 employees are distributed between the 10 remaining. According to the employee he is now performing over and above what is expected, but no, a new performance agreement must be signed that includes the "over and above" duties that you took on, it now forms part of your normal duty.
    3. Work load increases and the employers adds on more duties to the employees agreement, it becomes normal duties.

    The pattern continues, putting more pressure on the employee, it becomes unmanageable, the employees performance suffers, ads stress etc, no increases, no bonuses.

    I know you get lazy people out there, but take a hard worker, abuse his/her contribution to the company and you create another undeforming lazy bastard.

    But hey...be glad you still have a job...as the saying goes.
    Quote Originally Posted by New View Post
    And then the snake amongst the cat and the pigeons. You could never get the seat at the table no matter what you do as your employer never actually had that plan. (This is why I left my previous employer after 6 years of hard graft. That and being openly screwed on comm. And his son stepping into the firm in a high position as a 2nd year student*) The trust factor goes both ways.

    *Yes, it seems I was stupid sticking around for that long.
    I think the post that I was typing before seeing yours is kinda on the same trend...
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  6. #125
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    Quote Originally Posted by MANDREAS View Post
    I truly get what you are saying but just hang on a minute.

    In a normal business day, a professional like Aviator can bill approx 6 out of the 8 hours (I am assuming that is the case - Aviator correct me if I am wrong). The remaining two hours is spent taking a piss every now and then, replying to e-mails, setting up meetings, taking lunch etc. Some of these tasks cannot be outsourced to employees. If he has to bill 150 hours a month, he will at some stage have to work afterhours.
    On face value yes, but, a queue, backlog, delay starts when any resource reaches 50% utilisation. Whether it is a queue at a till, trucks on the road, a factory machine capacity. If you can quantify output capacities of a resource, significantly reduce the amount of variation, you can push the utilisation %. If you understand the utilisation/cost relationship, then you can achieve 99.99% ''service level'' but at 3.44 x the cost.

    If you are unaware of queuing theory amongst others, the risk is planners plan 100% of the resource in the mistaken thought that you have tabled above. At 60% utilisation, you should start planning an second Aviator.

    The issue we are talking about here is some employers/managers expect 99.99% utilisation or more from employees but wish to avoid the 3.44x the cost. And the way they avoid that cost is by transferring it to the employee.

    Research Little's Law. This will give you an idea of the basis for my argument.

    Successful, sustainable businesses have mastered some abstracts, define and delineate functions and process. Place functional type people in functional areas and keep your hotshots focused on process management where they have a whole view across the business or where they can generate the most value.

    Recognise that not everyone is capable of process management or wants to be involved. Dont prioritise reward based on those willing to spend time at the office, look for those who are willing and do, generate additional value. Those are the rain makers.

    Norman Adami once told me as a Management Trainee at SAB; ''Sean my Booi, your main purpose here at SAB is to make yourself redundant. If you dont have time to play golf with customers during the week, you arent working smart. We want smart people here and we cant promote you unless there at least 3 others who can take your job'' 2 valuable lessons there.
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  8. #126
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    Quote Originally Posted by spicydave View Post
    Also working for Government (IT) and the 13th chq is part of CTC

    Also received bonus the last 18-years but not this year

    I'm also working from home since lock down and will be for the near future so I see my travel cost saving monthly as a nice bonus
    I dont work for the South African government though but our 13th cheque works the same as yours.

    We were lucky to get a performance bonus this year because the funds came from "last years" budget which ended March. Just missed the huge effects of covid. Next year will be a different story all together. I doubt there will be any bonuses.

    The working from home fuel savings is awesome!!
    I do miss the business travel though, very difficult building "stakeholder rapport" from MS Teams.
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  9. #127
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviator_01 View Post
    That too.

    Lets be honest, when choosing between the guy that just does what is required of him and the guy that does more than what is required from him, the guy that does just what is required will get the letter...
    Yeah, I can see that from a manager's point of view. I really can. Let me put this example out there (personal experience):

    I worked for a company. I was one of the lowest paid people in the company, simply because I was new. I put in time and effort and my work was fantastic. I did in a few months what previous people in my position couldn't do in 2 years. I was widely praised for what I put out and customers, both internal and external, loved it.

    So I worked my ass off, studied extra stuff on the side to better myself, started working on several different things in the company as well (voluntarily). Eventually my manager resigned (different story), and I was put up for his position. I don't know what he earned, but I do know (taking from how he spent), it was significantly more than me. I did the work, took the courses to cover the stuff I would need to know and shot for his position. It was going well until I was officially offered the position.

    Now, the position involved me doing his work, AS WELL AS the work I was currently busy with. So, in short, I'd work my ass off. That's fine, I've learned to put my head down and get crackin' when I need to.

    Then I asked them what my new salary would be if I step up a notch in the company, take over another person's role (saving the company a lot of money) and still doing what's needed of me. Apparently that was the biggest mistake ever. Since then I've been reduced to nothing until I eventually left the company (constructive dismissal, according to my lawyer).

    So what's the hard work got me? Let me explain. It cost me some of the most important years of my life. The early years of our marriage was spent working. When I wasn't working, I was studying. I lost out on the joys of staying in a really nice place in a really fancy part of JHB. I developed problems in my hands, arms and back due to sitting and working all the time. Due to the bad working conditions after that I have developed emotional and psychological issues, and literally can't enter a meeting of any sort without physically calming myself down beforehand. Whenever someone tells me they want to review my work, I get so anxious I have to get up and leave my workplace after the meeting, because I'm on adrenaline for that entire hour, even if they're completely happy with my work.

    So no, I'm sorry, no company deserves to screw up employees like that. It's not right. Again, work to live, not live to work. I'm happy with just being another drone in the office. I'm fine with that. I'm happy at home, not at work. I do everything that's required of me (and more), but when I walked into that position I told the managers straight up beforehand they should know, I don't work overtime without compensation, period. And they accepted that, and they're happy with it as well.

    EDIT: This post looks really fighty-like. It's not intended that way. I'm merely pointing out that not all people are career or job-driven like others.
    Last edited by Toxxyc; 2020/11/26 at 03:57 PM.

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  11. #128
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    For first time in many years getting a decent bonus of one months salary (half paid now, other half end of Feb).
    Last edited by supersunbird; 2020/11/26 at 05:20 PM.

  12. #129
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    You get to a stage in your career where your contract states “you will be required from time to time to work in addition to your contracted hours in order to meet business requirements”.

    This means that the employees who report to you who take long lunch breaks during month ends, crunch times and project deadlines, wants to claim over time, while you cannot.

    I specifically recall an employee who reported to me, that would literally just sit at the office, pretending to work to claim over time. I as her manager had to sit there as well, without the prospects of remuneration for this fruitless exercise, confronted her and was told that this is how it has worked for the past 10 years and I won’t change it.

    Well I did, and a really funny thing, once we cut overtime people started finishing their work in office hours and those that couldn’t got performance reviews and some were let go eventually.

    If they want to buy new cars and go on overseas holidays, it’s their right as business owners to what they want with their money. If not happy, find other employment.

    I am not saying that this is the rule, but unfortunately some misuse this, why companies don’t want to pay out overtime. Same with bonuses, even when contracts states at managers discretion, company economic performance and employee performance people expect it.

    People should realise that work in SA is scarce and trying to partake in pissing contests, you will be replaced quickly. Everyone is replaceable. This is perhaps not ethically correct to some, but that is how it goes.

    When I felt done in by a company to the extent that it bothered me for more than a month, I left and found other employment.

    You should negotiate overtime and bonuses into your contract, it is not your companies duty and most if not all won’t give you more than you’d ask for. If it is written in your contract and you still don’t get it, well there is legislation to help you sort that out.

  13. #130
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    Busy looking at bonuses at the moment - hoping we can match last years where some staff received a double salary, and worked on a sliding scale downwards depending on service and performance.

    We have shed 9 employees through retrenchments, dismissals and natural movement in the business this year, and are busy recruiting more suitable candidates as we speak.

    A difficult but interesting year to say the least!
    Rob Pollock

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  15. #131
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Estee View Post
    Thats one of the things related to inefficiencies. Managers in professional businesses like yours often have dual roles, one functional and the other process. Excessive OT is not uncommon. To get the time efficiencies, you need to consider the functional and process roles of the business and who should be doing them. One person doing both is a recipe for some form of disaster as you cant be player, referee and spectator all at the same time.

    This goes for the production and operational environments. That hands on Production Manager who is a player, cant referee at the same time so he/she doesnt see the foul or infringement at the other end of the pitch.
    We really need to have a beer next time you're in banana country. It seems you and I see the world in similar ways.
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  17. #132
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    Quote Originally Posted by New View Post
    I think you will find that most worthwhile emplyees will not stick around with that attitude. Or worse, bugger off and compete with you. Your business will also die with you as there is no contingency plan to keep it going. If an employee you have known for some time (I am not talking about the secretary ens, but someone that can seemingly do what you do or heck maybe even more than you can or in different fields) gets given an opportunity to buy into the business (one way or another) why would they not also have skin in the game?
    Let me clarify. If you want to bring someone into the business, the skin in the game = money. I have seen some businesses who have parted with shares to employees because of commitment and loyalty. The risk element in business is generally higher when someone puts in cash, not time. And higher risk often brings more in-depth commitment.

    Lets face it, if I will lose my job, thats one thing but if I lose my job and my house and car, well that generally keeps people focused and committed. Thats skin in the game. Otherwise, easy come easy go
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  19. #133
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    Quote Originally Posted by cainslie View Post
    We really need to have a beer next time you're in banana country. It seems you and I see the world in similar ways.
    Lets do that
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  21. #134
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    I’m with Sean on this one!!! I get all the other arguments and appreciate the way of thinking. But....

    I’ve been through the system. Starting as a junior specialist. Worst (and best) advice I got from my first MD was that to be noticed you have to be the first one in the office and the last one to leave. This paid dividends and I climbed the ladder rather quickly and got the seat at the table at a very large multi-national. Still no shares. Only salary. Yes, big bonus etc, but that doesn’t create wealth.

    Left that ship for another opportunity where I bought in to a company on a shareholder loan account basis. This was awesome. It was mine to drive and build. But as Sean says, I had no real skin on the game (dividends paid off the loan account). Grew the business by 20% year on year. But got lured back to corporate. Sold my shares (my very first hard experience of real wealth creation) and again became a working bee around an even bigger table. That only lasted 2 years. I was nackered. Working 16 hours a day non stop for what? A salary. No opportunity to get shareholding. No thank you

    So yes, sometimes you need to put in the hard yards without expecting immediate gratification. But lift your head once in a while, take stock, and decide if it is worth it. I decided no, my time is worth more to me than what any big corporate is willing to pay for it
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  23. #135
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Estee View Post
    Lets do that
    I want to join
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  25. #136
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    Interesting thread giving both employee and employer perspectives.

    For my situation there are different types of overtime, the good and the inefficient.

    The good is where clients required my equipment for extra hours which gets billed with an excess rate.
    Extra money for the company and the operators and support staff.

    On the technical side it would be a combination, if I have to get ready for some big orders it is value adding.
    But you also get bad planning from workshop managers which makes their workshops fall behind causing unnecessary overtime.

    As an unspoken rule my managers doesn't claim overtime, for 3 reasons.
    1. They set the example for all their employees.
    2. If they plan badly they have to sort out their own mess.
    3. If they perform they get monthly performance bonuses.
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  27. #137
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    I have detected in this thread that people deem overtime pay as a bonus

    Could I ask why?

    A bonus should be given if it is deemed fair to compensate someone for his efforts in exceeding expectations (this can also be a profit sharing initiative). Overtime on the other hand is if you get paid for work outside your normal/agreed on working hours, like if there is a breakdown in equipment, or an upcoming deadline.

    The two are absolutely different, and should not be confused.
    Last edited by Hedgehog; 2020/11/27 at 07:54 AM.
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  29. #138
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    The overtime issue I luckily don't have, I am proud to say I am able to do my work during office hours. The work required from me after hours(overtime) I declined after I was not paid 3 times, I was requested to come in, which I did, when I submitted the overtime, all sorts of red tape was thrown in my face. I am not a circus clown, so jumping through hoops to get what is owed is not on. I expected my supervisor to support me, not say sorry there is nothing I can do.


    And as fate has it, I was just informed that one of my colleagues is not performing, because I perform, I need to take over his duties, he will be shifted to where ever....yet, no performance bonus, no increase, sometimes I wish I was a slap gat so that people cannot depend on me.

    But....at least I have a job...thank you sir.
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  31. #139
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehog View Post
    I have detected in this thread that people deem overtime pay as a bonus

    Could I ask why?

    A bonus should be given if it is deemed fair to compensate someone for his efforts in exceeding expectations (this can also be a profit sharing initiative). Overtime on the other hand is if you get paid for work outside your normal/agreed on working hours, like if there is a breakdown in equipment, or an upcoming deadline.

    The two are absolutely different, and should not be confused.
    You are 100% correct Andrew. But as ST highlighted, it seems the "overtime" culture of corporate was romantisised by Hollywood/USA. In corporate SA, from a certain level, overtime is expected from you and you will not get paid for it. This is rightly questioned in this thread.

    Not even at a certain level sometimes. I have not been paid one cent overtime my whole working life. And the last year, I clocked 170% work hours (yes, I almost did double the hours as per employment contract for a full 12 months!).
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    Default Re: Who still gets a Bonus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nys View Post
    You are 100% correct Andrew. But as ST highlighted, it seems the "overtime" culture of corporate was romantisised by Hollywood/USA. In corporate SA, from a certain level, overtime is expected from you and you will not get paid for it. This is rightly questioned in this thread.

    Not even at a certain level sometimes. I have not been paid one cent overtime my whole working life. And the last year, I clocked 170% work hours (yes, I almost did double the hours as per employment contract for a full 12 months!).
    In my opinion there is a difference in who should get overtime pay.

    A person who is part of maintenance (in a factory) or Clerical (In a corporate) environment and is there to do menial, maintenance or clerical work, should be paid overtime for work done after or out of normal hours..

    A person, in an production (factory) or in Client sales/ or in construction project work, should be paid a bonus, and should decide himself, if work outside his hours would be required for him to get the bonus...

    Middle management and above should be linked to performance bonuses of their departments, and have a profit sharing incentive scheme or a contractual one like I have...

    No overtime payable to management.. You burn the candle as needed to get the performance bonus.

    This is how an incentive should be designed... And included should be a performance management scheme. (For those water station dudes, who like to talk about their EDCs instead of work
    Last edited by Hedgehog; 2020/11/27 at 09:04 AM.
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