Fracking in NE Namibia & western Botswana - Page 2





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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia & western Botswana

    Quote Originally Posted by wilfwalk View Post
    I really get angry when I read that there is still this insane drive to prospect for oil and gas reserves. I mean, what the hell ! Don't these people see what fossil fuels are doing to the planet ? And those who invest in these suicidal (to all life on the planet) venture are as short-sighted greedy and misguided. Or perhaps they just don't give a fig about the well-being of the planet beyond their own short life-spans ?

    Which planet are they planning to move to when life becomes unbearable here ?
    Why don't they invest in research to develop alternative energy forms that will be of benefit to the long-term sustainability of the planet and it life forms. This is a question I would really like to hear their answer to.
    Perhaps they should all watch the locally made movie My Octopus Teacher and try and understand the absolute joy of interacting with other life forms, many of which are under threat from the consequences of the use of fossil fuels.

    Rant over, but REALLY !!
    Bad day?
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  2. #22
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia & western Botswana

    Quote Originally Posted by wilfwalk View Post
    Solar geyser installed about 15 years ago at home and at work, gas stove, A+++ fridge & washing machine, A++ dishwasher, changed from gas guzzling 3.0 v6 petrol to 2,5 D-4D using about 40 % less fuel. Maybe not perfect, but its what I can afford. And you ?
    ^ This is funny...
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia & western Botswana

    Quote Originally Posted by Nambro View Post
    The unfortunate reality is that the communities around the fracking sites usually end up with nadda. Only the pockets of corrupt officials are lined and the big corporates are nowwhere closely interested in the fate of the communities.
    That's a bit of a blanket statement?

    If I have a farm, and oil is discovered at one cattlepost, the government has no obligation to provide me with anything more that to compensate me for the expropriation of that portion of land. My children has no right to benefit from the development nor do they have a right to be employed in terms of same.

    The same applies to communal land resident - the land, which belongs to the state, is kept on trust by the government on behalf of the residents. Much the same with the obligations vis-a-vis rights referred to above, there is no obligation to employ any of the affected residents.

    Getting to the aspect of loss of grazing, an argument usually raised at this point, it must be noted that in communal arears, the state has done next to nothing over the past 20 years to manage grazing, livestock population etc. in those areas. Its a free for all and notwithstanding the constant conflict between human, livestock and wildlife in that area, overgrazing has probably caused more damage to the area that a properly maintained and managed fracking (or drilling) exercise will have.
    Cheers
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  5. #24
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia & western Botswana

    Quote Originally Posted by RoelfleRoux View Post
    If a CSG (coal seam gas) well can operate for years without "attendance", then it is most probably not fracking.
    I have no personal experience of hydrocarbon exploration and extraction, but below is how I understand "tight" shale oil and gas and fracking.
    1) the extraction hole is drilled down to the target shale bed and then turned horisontal to run parallel and inside the shale bed.
    2) a massive (mind blowing) volume of water is injected under pressure to fracture the shale beds. For water scarce Southern Africa this is a problem. Big fleets of water tankers can and will damage roads.
    3) the water is mixed with very specialised additives of which the formula is almost always the intellectual property of that company, which means it is kept a secret. This is one of the biggest emotional aspects of fracking, people believe because it is a secret it must be evil.
    4) such a fracked hole doesn't tap into a very large area (resource), which means it won't last very long. The next, and next, and next holes have to be drilled not too far off. This is the other big problem with tight shale oil, it results in a close spaced network of drill sites and interconnecting pipe networks.
    I spent my whole working life in the mineral resource industry and had many community meetings in the process. There are normally only two types of people present: the haves who are opposed to any new development and the have-nots who want to know how many jobs will be created.
    As I said, not really my area of expertise either, I design the equipment the guys use. My understanding is that horizontal boring is not the preferred method anymore due to silting of the hole. In CSG these wells are supposed to be 1km apart from what I’m told. Sometimes the hole needs flushby more regularly, depends on the volume of water flowing into the hole.

    My rig will deliver 1800l/min at 5000psi.

  6. #25
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia & western Botswana

    Not really. If you consider the kavango/caprivi areas, the following:
    Concessions are secured through bribery
    Operators have huge issues with concervancy management being corrupt
    Namibia MET agreed that they are unable to rid the corrupt
    Same seems to be in Bots where most of the upmarket lodges are owned by foreigners and the communities benefit......nada.
    And you might want to have a look in the rest of the world i.e Nigeria, Angola, Sudan etc..
    And its not only the oil industry.
    Sometimes blanket statements are required to get responses
    Quote Originally Posted by MANDREAS View Post
    That's a bit of a blanket statement?

    If I have a farm, and oil is discovered at one cattlepost, the government has no obligation to provide me with anything more that to compensate me for the expropriation of that portion of land. My children has no right to benefit from the development nor do they have a right to be employed in terms of same.

    The same applies to communal land resident - the land, which belongs to the state, is kept on trust by the government on behalf of the residents. Much the same with the obligations vis-a-vis rights referred to above, there is no obligation to employ any of the affected residents.

    Getting to the aspect of loss of grazing, an argument usually raised at this point, it must be noted that in communal arears, the state has done next to nothing over the past 20 years to manage grazing, livestock population etc. in those areas. Its a free for all and notwithstanding the constant conflict between human, livestock and wildlife in that area, overgrazing has probably caused more damage to the area that a properly maintained and managed fracking (or drilling) exercise will have.
    2002 Discovery td5

  7. #26
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia & western Botswana

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceB View Post
    I was under the impression that the water in the Delta came from Angola, (which has a MASSIVE conventional oil and gas industry). Methane is natural. In fact even oil is natural.
    .
    Almost all of Angola's production is offshore - so no impact on the water flowing into the Okavango, other than tankers hauling fuel across the country.

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  9. #27
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia & western Botswana

    Certainly society will need petroleum products for some time to come, regardless of whether we "should" or not. However, it turns out that there are actually quite a lot of petroleum reserves available around the world, and it is very hard for me to see the justification for fracking (regardless of the professionalism of the operator) adjacent to this truly unique environment.

    Of course drilling for oil isn't just about producing oil/gas, it's about doing it as cheap as possible. I realize I'm lucky enough to be able to say this, but I for one would be more than willing to pay a premium at the pump for fuel that isn't extracted from the most fragile of our environments, i.e. Okavango, Arctic, etc. Just my .02c.
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  11. #28
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia & western Botswana

    Quote Originally Posted by Nambro View Post
    Not really. If you consider the kavango/caprivi areas, the following:
    Concessions are secured through bribery
    Operators have huge issues with concervancy management being corrupt
    Namibia MET agreed that they are unable to rid the corrupt
    Same seems to be in Bots where most of the upmarket lodges are owned by foreigners and the communities benefit......nada.
    And you might want to have a look in the rest of the world i.e Nigeria, Angola, Sudan etc..
    And its not only the oil industry.
    Sometimes blanket statements are required to get responses
    I am not sure what your point is? You have answered me with a list of blanket statements? I am not sure what response you are trying to solicit?
    Cheers
    MANDREAS

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  13. #29
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia & western Botswana

    Just read again...slowly. The point is that nobody except the corrupt entities will benefit.
    Quote Originally Posted by MANDREAS View Post
    I am not sure what your point is? You have answered me with a list of blanket statements? I am not sure what response you are trying to solicit?
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  15. #30
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia & western Botswana

    Quote Originally Posted by Nambro View Post
    Just read again...slowly. The point is that nobody except the corrupt entities will benefit.
    Look, I don't know who you are trying to impress with your open-ended ambigious factless sweeping nonsense, but I would suggest that you keep your "facts" where it belongs, in a pub or around the the campfire.
    Cheers
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  16. #31
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia & western Botswana

    Quote Originally Posted by MANDREAS View Post
    Look, I don't know who you are trying to impress with your open-ended ambigious factless sweeping nonsense, but I would suggest that you keep your "facts" where it belongs, in a pub or around the the campfire.
    Any literate Namibian with an open mind knows that Fishrot is pocket change compared to what has been and will be stolen.....and the truth of that statement.

    Closest I've seen to this plunder helping the "local community" is a forklift driver at a mine being able to afford a car, a house, and school for his kids.
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia & western Botswana

    Quote Originally Posted by DustGypsy View Post
    Any literate Namibian with an open mind knows that Fishrot is pocket change compared to what has been and will be stolen.....and the truth of that statement.

    Closest I've seen to this plunder helping the "local community" is a forklift driver at a mine being able to afford a car, a house, and school for his kids.
    That's the problem with unearthing issues like "fishrot" in a small country - everything that moves in the bush must be corruption then. A view like that blinds a person from seeing the opportunity when it presents itself, especially in a time when the fiscus needs any foreign investment direly.

    As to your second paragraph, what, in your view, would constitute "benefiting the local community"?
    Cheers
    MANDREAS

  18. #33
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia & western Botswana

    The problem lies with ignorant people like Mr M who think any "development" must be good. Oil is not the holy grail and areas like the Kavango basin must be protected. Fracking is by no means a clean operation being the reason for not being allowed in a number of countries. And no, we are not that stupid to suspect corruption behind every bush. Unfortunately history has shown that corruption is rampant so we look behind every second bush.
    Quote Originally Posted by MANDREAS View Post
    That's the problem with unearthing issues like "fishrot" in a small country - everything that moves in the bush must be corruption then. A view like that blinds a person from seeing the opportunity when it presents itself, especially in a time when the fiscus needs any foreign investment direly.

    As to your second paragraph, what, in your view, would constitute "benefiting the local community"?
    2002 Discovery td5

  19. #34
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia & western Botswana

    Quote Originally Posted by Nambro View Post
    The problem lies with ignorant people like Mr M who think any "development" must be good. Oil is not the holy grail and areas like the Kavango basin must be protected. Fracking is by no means a clean operation being the reason for not being allowed in a number of countries. And no, we are not that stupid to suspect corruption behind every bush. Unfortunately history has shown that corruption is rampant so we look behind every second bush.
    Have you even read the EIA-report?

    Perhaps you should - hopefully you will then refrain from making emotional responses.

    Let's argue facts, mate.
    Cheers
    MANDREAS

  20. #35
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia & western Botswana

    Quote Originally Posted by Nambro View Post
    The problem lies with ignorant people like Mr M who think any "development" must be good. Oil is not the holy grail and areas like the Kavango basin must be protected. Fracking is by no means a clean operation being the reason for not being allowed in a number of countries. And no, we are not that stupid to suspect corruption behind every bush. Unfortunately history has shown that corruption is rampant so we look behind every second bush.
    Cool stuff if someone disagrees he’s ignorant?

    Look I’m fine with zero foreign investment in Africa, no skin off my back. It could go to a subsistence economy for all I care.

  21. #36
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia & western Botswana

    Quote Originally Posted by wilfwalk View Post
    <br>
    <br>Solar geyser installed about 15 years ago at home and at work, gas stove, A+++ fridge / freezer & washing machine, A++ dishwasher, changed from gas guzzling 3.0 v6 petrol to 2,5 D-4D using about 40 % less fuel. Maybe not perfect, but its what I can afford.&nbsp;

    Will probably go solar in our retirement home - asap.
    Not nearly enough, not by a long shot.

    One of my hobby horses. When the next anti fracking nutter walks from Cape Town to the Karoo for an anti fracking protest, instead of flying to Bloem and hiring a 4x4, I will give him my ear.

    The old “not in my backyard” story. Quite happy to use fossil fuel as long as the fuel wasn’t mined in my back yard.

    Edward DeBono, one of my heroes, and Author of books on Lateral Thinking had some great ideas on this. Force all producers of industrial waste to have to use this as input to their systems. So a factory/city/dwelling/etc on a river, for interest, would be required to expel their waste water upstream, and have their water intake, downstream.

    Same with fuel. You can’t use fuel here, that is the spoil of pollution elsewhere.
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  22. #37
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia & western Botswana

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Not nearly enough, not by a long shot.

    One of my hobby horses. When the next anti fracking nutter walks from Cape Town to the Karoo for an anti fracking protest, instead of flying to Bloem and hiring a 4x4, I will give him my ear.

    The old “not in my backyard” story. Quite happy to use fossil fuel as long as the fuel wasn’t mined in my back yard.

    Edward DeBono, one of my heroes, and Author of books on Lateral Thinking had some great ideas on this. Force all producers of industrial waste to have to use this as input to their systems. So a factory/city/dwelling/etc on a river, for interest, would be required to expel their waste water upstream, and have their water intake, downstream.

    Same with fuel. You can’t use fuel here, that is the spoil of pollution elsewhere.
    Good points.
    Cheers
    MANDREAS

  23. #38
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia &amp;amp; western Botswana

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  24. #39
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia &amp;amp; western Botswana

    EIA's can be rigged. You want to argue facts but have not put a single one on the table. So, Mate yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by MANDREAS View Post
    Have you even read the EIA-report?

    Perhaps you should - hopefully you will then refrain from making emotional responses.

    Let's argue facts, mate.
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  25. #40
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    Default Re: Fracking in NE Namibia & western Botswana

    Sorry Fluffy, but that is not quite correct anymore. Pollution and pillage has happened all over. Products are produced an used elsewhere. The point is that production of material become more expensive because of environmental production requirements applied in the industrial countries (at least some of them). Fracking has been prooven to create all sorts of issues such as groundwater contamination etc.. Africa is still seen as an easy target for exploitation with low environmental control and the fracking fraternity needs to utilise its tools and investments. No fracking initiatjve would pass any EIS save the location being in extreme barren environment not usable for human consumtion or habitat without rigging it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Not nearly enough, not by a long shot.

    One of my hobby horses. When the next anti fracking nutter walks from Cape Town to the Karoo for an anti fracking protest, instead of flying to Bloem and hiring a 4x4, I will give him my ear.

    The old “not in my backyard” story. Quite happy to use fossil fuel as long as the fuel wasn’t mined in my back yard.

    Edward DeBono, one of my heroes, and Author of books on Lateral Thinking had some great ideas on this. Force all producers of industrial waste to have to use this as input to their systems. So a factory/city/dwelling/etc on a river, for interest, would be required to expel their waste water upstream, and have their water intake, downstream.

    Same with fuel. You can’t use fuel here, that is the spoil of pollution elsewhere.
    2002 Discovery td5

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