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  1. #201
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Die SwartKat View Post
    TTT I have been following your progress and tons of fun with the BMS for the past few months, and though my entire Victron system was DIY.............................. I think I'll stick to lithiums with built in BMS's when the time comes and I can actually afford it.

    But hats off to you for persisting during these "fun" times and even more so for sharing your school fees here with us.
    I've been VERY tempted a few times in the past to sell all I've got and go for Revov's, for their prices are getting very enticing ...

    BUT, I've got it now ... I'm happy.

    Next move is I want, when I have spare again, to get 300ah cells, 16 of them ... for my BMS is ready and waiting for them.
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  2. #202
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    Not that I've done extensive (or any) price comparissons yet, merely stumbled upon a supplier that quoted R26k for a 4.8kw Pylontech Vat and delivery included.

    Does this sound like a good price, and how would this compare to the Revov brand for the same size?
    Last edited by Die SwartKat; 2021/02/09 at 02:20 PM.
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  3. #203
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Die SwartKat View Post
    Not that I've done extensive (or any) price comparissons yet, merely stumbled upon a supplier that quoted R26k for a 4.8kw Pylontech Vat and delivery included.

    Does this sound like a good price, and how would this compare to the Revov brand for the same size?
    Some perspective:
    I paid <R26k (with new BMS), for a brand new 7.6kWh bank ...
    Am watching R/$ and 300ah lithium cells prices ... hope to one day have a +-15kWh bank, with BMS, for < R30k landed ... DIY style.
    Political Correctness
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  4. #204
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post
    Some perspective:
    I paid <R26k (with new BMS), for a brand new 7.6kWh bank ...
    Am watching R/$ and 300ah lithium cells prices ... hope to one day have a +-15kWh bank, with BMS, for < R30k landed ... DIY style.
    For Revovs?
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  5. #205
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Die SwartKat View Post
    For Revovs?
    Sorry ... DIY.

    Small kWh Revov's are dropping in price, 2nd life 5.1kWh bank about competing with Pylontech.
    If you go 10-12kwh, then Revov wins hands down ito price I recon.
    Political Correctness
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  6. #206
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    I would also keep my eye on the BSL bull batteries. Not a name you come accross every day but recently approved by Victron and used in conjunction with many other inverters. Well priced and look at warranties wrt cycles at dod. Some offer @ 50% 20% dod etc. I personally think this battery has something going for it. Also, ask yourself what communication you require between battery and inverter and data in hand, whether using external devices etc.

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  8. #207
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by bloudraad View Post
    I would also keep my eye on the BSL bull batteries. Not a name you come accross every day but recently approved by Victron and used in conjunction with many other inverters. Well priced and look at warranties wrt cycles at dod. Some offer @ 50% 20% dod etc. I personally think this battery has something going for it. Also, ask yourself what communication you require between battery and inverter and data in hand, whether using external devices etc.
    Revov Warranty: 10 years or 3500 cycles, whichever comes first.

    Good benchmark in my book to hold in mind, when we buy brand names.
    The cycles is the fine print to look at ... and how they calculate a cycle.
    Political Correctness
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  9. #208
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post
    Revov Warranty: 10 years or 3500 cycles, whichever comes first.

    Good benchmark in my book to hold in mind, when we buy brand names.
    The cycles is the fine print to look at ... and how they calculate a cycle.
    Im no battery expert but agree that cycles are the first thing we all look at.
    When cycles at dod is brought into the equation there is some extra homework to do.

    I like what is see from this battery and time will tell. Ten years from now some of us might complain and others not about the decisions we made earlier.

    If only I had a crystal ball.

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  11. #209
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    For information, this is how it looks, in my house, when Eskom is off daytime ...

    The stuff in the house, on a 2nd DB, that must always be on, is currently at 510w. Can go to 4kw, the inverter max.

    So in effect, I can still use the: Microwave OR Induction plate OR Boil a kettle OR Heat a geyser ( geyser only if that was a NEED).
    As long as I keep within 4kw max draw.

    See also the batteries being recharged from last nights use, with LOADS spare for the panels could, at this time of the day, generate +3.8kw, weather dependent, with ease.

    Effectively, this being a hybrid grid tied system, house is running 100% off solar panel generation.
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    Political Correctness
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    Saw this in a pub - no idea why the wife does not see it so:
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  12. #210
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post

    Effectively, this being a hybrid grid tied system, house is running 100% off solar panel generation.
    That is the sweet spot one needs to aim for.

    Balancing capital spent on panels vs storage to meet your load requirements in order to be become self sustained.
    It is this sweet spot "privilege" which now has Eskom wanting to charge grid tied users extra for.

    Unfortunately Escom will not give you a rebate on their privilege to turn your power off when they see fit.

  13. #211
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by bloudraad View Post
    That is the sweet spot one needs to aim for.

    Balancing capital spent on panels vs storage to meet your load requirements in order to be become self sustained.
    It took YEARS to get here, the Sweet Spot, slowly growing the system with data, part for part, with School fees thrown in.
    And off-course lifestyle changes, energy "audits" and all that ... without ticking SWAMBO off ... just get a system that she can use the that hairdryer 6am with LS, after having had a hot shower ... and ones head is through!

    Quote Originally Posted by bloudraad View Post
    It is this sweet spot "privilege" which now has Eskom wanting to charge grid tied users extra for.

    Unfortunately Eskom will not give you a rebate on their privilege to turn your power off when they see fit.
    CoCT has been going hard at kicking Eskom out for 10+ years now.

    IF they win the court case, I think it is still going forward, then it matters little, they will have the constitution backing them.
    IF CoCT loses, Eskom forces them to force us to pay ... I WILL go the last few yards and go off-grid.

    Also, CoCT does not want home users to sell back because one cannot look at a house or two selling back, nope. They look at every house in the street, all on same transformer, having the right to go solar and THAT is the issue, their equipment is too old, not designed for feedback, monitoring and controlling like as Smart Grids can and must do ... or so a friend told me.

    With the recent round of LS, if the White Boss at Eskom resigns, or gets fired, O'boy, the SA is truly and utterly fooked.

    So me, I'm sitting back, relaxing, seeing where this fiasco is going.
    Political Correctness
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  14. #212
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post
    Also, CoCT does not want home users to sell back because one cannot look at a house or two selling back, nope. They look at every house in the street, all on same transformer, having the right to go solar and THAT is the issue, their equipment is too old, not designed for feedback, monitoring and controlling like as Smart Grids can and must do ... or so a friend told me.
    Yes, they probably don't want to complicate their life any more than it is already (not to mention the loss of revenue..)
    You only have to look at the suburban trains in CT to see the dynamic... old skedonk trains, poorly maintained and run from some department in Gauteng..
    No wonder they aren't too enthusiastic!

  15. #213
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Mackay View Post
    Yes, they probably don't want to complicate their life any more than it is already (not to mention the loss of revenue..)
    You only have to look at the suburban trains in CT to see the dynamic... old skedonk trains, poorly maintained and run from some department in Gauteng..
    No wonder they aren't too enthusiastic!
    No they don't. they want to buy from local suppliers, based in the W/Cape.

    I communicate with CoCT, I ask questions, the last few years and they DO answer emails.
    AND the "man in charge" of solar, responds to engineers in the solar industry.

    Re. the trains ... it is a national prerogative.
    CoCT wants to get control of the local police and trains, and not wait for a ANC minister to decided.

    Let the W/Cape do it's thing ... Be-gone the cANCer.
    Last edited by the_terrible_triplett; 2021/02/10 at 10:20 PM.
    Political Correctness
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    Saw this in a pub - no idea why the wife does not see it so:
    I'm not opinionated ... I'm just always right!

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  17. #214
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post
    For information, this is how it looks, in my house, when Eskom is off daytime ...

    The stuff in the house, on a 2nd DB, that must always be on, is currently at 510w. Can go to 4kw, the inverter max.

    So in effect, I can still use the: Microwave OR Induction plate OR Boil a kettle OR Heat a geyser ( geyser only if that was a NEED).
    As long as I keep within 4kw max draw.

    See also the batteries being recharged from last nights use, with LOADS spare for the panels could, at this time of the day, generate +3.8kw, weather dependent, with ease.

    Effectively, this being a hybrid grid tied system, house is running 100% off solar panel generation.
    TTT our PV generating capacity far exceeds our daily loads. There my figures will almost be similar to yours.

    It is as Bloudraad says, the other very important factor to consider is storage. There I lack seriously behind and this with a 9.6Kw bank of which I only utilize 30%, and only when I know weather looks good a few days ahead.

    That and the fact that when the inverter needs to work, I'm limited to 2,4Kw and max peaks of 3Kw

    Is my math correct?

    P=V*I
    P=48*200
    P=9600W

    Now if I could have this capacity in lithium.... I think I'd be very close to being completely off grid. One day when I'm big.
    Nico Swart

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  18. #215
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post

    Also, CoCT does not want home users to sell back because one cannot look at a house or two selling back, nope. They look at every house in the street, all on same transformer, having the right to go solar and THAT is the issue, their equipment is too old, not designed for feedback, monitoring and controlling like as Smart Grids can and must do ... or so a friend told me.

    .

    I don't think it has too much to do with the age of the equipment that would prevent feedback of users generated power into the grid.

    It`s the fact that when the engineer sizes the transformer inside the residential (11 / 0.4 kV) minisubstation they dont size it for the full required power for each house. The more houses connected to the minisubstation the higher the diversity factor that can be used.

    I'm not sure what the COC regulations are, but if I was the person in charge and I wanted to make sure my infrastructure is protected I would not allow more than 34% of the connection per connection to be fed back.
    Worst case scenario would be if everyone in the suburb has rooftop solar, and everyone is feeding back - you will exceed the rating of the transformer in the minisubstation and all the cables, and the circuit breaker in the minisub station will trip to protect the equipment. Now you have a number of solar inverters generating power and the load gets disconnected, but they are all still connected to each other - hope you are not the one with the cheap China inverter :-)

    Having to design a power distribution system for a residential setting, where you want to allow all the users to pump back their excess solar power will probably cost the developer at least 3X more as now diversity can be applied.


    - Diversity factor makes a lot a sense for distribution / supply systems because in a residential setting not every user will draw the maximum power from their connection at the same time.
    BUT for solar generation on a nice sunny day if everyone has rooftop solar - they will all generate maximum power at the same time .


    But Im not an expert , on a layman
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  20. #216
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaan Pot View Post
    I don't think it has too much to do with the age of the equipment that would prevent feedback of users generated power into the grid.

    It`s the fact that when the engineer sizes the transformer inside the residential (11 / 0.4 kV) minisubstation they dont size it for the full required power for each house. The more houses connected to the minisubstation the higher the diversity factor that can be used.

    I'm not sure what the COC regulations are, but if I was the person in charge and I wanted to make sure my infrastructure is protected I would not allow more than 34% of the connection per connection to be fed back.
    Worst case scenario would be if everyone in the suburb has rooftop solar, and everyone is feeding back - you will exceed the rating of the transformer in the minisubstation and all the cables, and the circuit breaker in the minisub station will trip to protect the equipment. Now you have a number of solar inverters generating power and the load gets disconnected, but they are all still connected to each other - hope you are not the one with the cheap China inverter :-)

    Having to design a power distribution system for a residential setting, where you want to allow all the users to pump back their excess solar power will probably cost the developer at least 3X more as now diversity can be applied.


    - Diversity factor makes a lot a sense for distribution / supply systems because in a residential setting not every user will draw the maximum power from their connection at the same time.
    BUT for solar generation on a nice sunny day if everyone has rooftop solar - they will all generate maximum power at the same time .


    But Im not an expert , on a layman
    The main reason that residential small scale generation is limited to 4.6kW is exactly to cover the eventuality you describe.

    I think the previous description of the equipment being "old" doesn't refer to the physical equipment age, (much of it may be brand new as faulty equipment is replaced), but rather to an "old" design specification that doesn't cater for everybody feeding back - which is what you are in fact saying.

    I also think that a "Diversity Factor" could be applied to feed-in. Everybody having Solar PV fed-in is a loooong way away from the present status-quo, and in any event, even if everybody did have feed-in, the feed-in would still be a "net" value as the users still have own consumption to consume from the PV system. I think for the foreseable future (ie 10 years) a feed-in diversity factor of less than 0.1 would probably apply.

    EDIT- Thinking even further on this, even if 50% of the homes had feed-in PV systems, the net power flow back to the mini-sub would still be close to zero. Simply because my net generation will be consumed by my next door neighbor who doesn't have a PV system.
    Last edited by Fluffy; 2021/02/11 at 10:11 AM.
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  22. #217
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaan Pot View Post
    I don't think it has too much to do with the age of the equipment that would prevent feedback of users generated power into the grid.

    It`s the fact that when the engineer sizes the transformer inside the residential (11 / 0.4 kV) minisubstation they dont size it for the full required power for each house. The more houses connected to the minisubstation the higher the diversity factor that can be used.

    I'm not sure what the COC regulations are, but if I was the person in charge and I wanted to make sure my infrastructure is protected I would not allow more than 34% of the connection per connection to be fed back.
    Worst case scenario would be if everyone in the suburb has rooftop solar, and everyone is feeding back - you will exceed the rating of the transformer in the minisubstation and all the cables, and the circuit breaker in the minisub station will trip to protect the equipment. Now you have a number of solar inverters generating power and the load gets disconnected, but they are all still connected to each other - hope you are not the one with the cheap China inverter :-)

    Having to design a power distribution system for a residential setting, where you want to allow all the users to pump back their excess solar power will probably cost the developer at least 3X more as now diversity can be applied.


    - Diversity factor makes a lot a sense for distribution / supply systems because in a residential setting not every user will draw the maximum power from their connection at the same time.
    BUT for solar generation on a nice sunny day if everyone has rooftop solar - they will all generate maximum power at the same time .


    But Im not an expert , on a layman
    YES!!! There are a lot of videos from brand name inverter manufacturers, on how to solve the challenges from solar generation.

    On top of the age, what you are saying above has also been discussed, a LOT, the last couple of years on another forum on WHY one is allowed a max of 3.5kw inverter limit per house if one is grid tied.

    I can install 10kva, 15kva, but if grid tied, only allowed 3.5kw.
    So the full system power only realises when the grid is off, rest of the time the system would be idling, if one follows the regulations.

    Then there is the other, probably biggest, problem child in this entire saga. The now infamous "Duck Curve": https://www.vox.com/2016/2/10/109608...rgy-duck-curve

    Problem is not when there is enough sun, you throttle that back if the demand is low.
    The BIG problem comes in when the sun starts setting, early morning, during demand times.
    How to solve that, is THE challenge to address.
    Political Correctness
    Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional illogical minority, rabidly promoted by a unscrupulous mainstream media which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd ... by the clean end!

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  24. #218
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post
    Problem is not when there is enough sun, you throttle that back if the demand is low.
    The BIG problem comes in when the sun starts setting, early morning, during demand times.
    How to solve that, is THE challenge to address.
    YEP, In a nutshell.

    This is the main driver for the design and cost of the grid. You and me generating oodles of power at midday does nothing to help the problem, and the primary reason the powers that be aren't keen for us to do so. All they do is lose revenue that is needed to support the infrastructure.
    Cheers

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  26. #219
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    YEP, In a nutshell.

    This is the main driver for the design and cost of the grid. You and me generating oodles of power at midday does nothing to help the problem, and the primary reason the powers that be aren't keen for us to do so. All they do is lose revenue that is needed to support the infrastructure.
    To add another complexity, like in Cpt when we have sunny cold cloudy days.

    On those days one moment the arrays generates 450w the next moment 5.4kw ... how would one "ramp up / throttle down" local power stations to keep the grid stable, as clouds move over the city?
    Last edited by the_terrible_triplett; 2021/02/11 at 10:46 AM.
    Political Correctness
    Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional illogical minority, rabidly promoted by a unscrupulous mainstream media which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd ... by the clean end!

    Saw this in a pub - no idea why the wife does not see it so:
    I'm not opinionated ... I'm just always right!

  27. #220
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    Default Re: Lithium vs Lead Acid

    Could this model help?

    https://stateofgreen.com/en/partners...rt-renewables/

    Just a though.

    Marius De Kock
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