Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please - Page 2





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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabfender View Post
    Right to Return Goods
    A consumer is entitled to return unsafe or defective goods, including goods that are not of a good quality. This right is enforceable for a period of six months, calculated from the date of the delivery of the goods to the consumer. Where the goods are so returned, the consumer does so without penalty and at the supplier’s risk and expense.
    If the goods are prematurely delivered to a consumer, the consumer may accept delivery or require delivery or performance at the agreed time and date. The consumer may also cancel the agreement without penalty and treat the delivered goods or services as “unsolicited goods or services.”

    The Issue of Strict Liability
    The CPA imposes strict liability on producers, importers, distributors or retailers for supplying unsafe goods. Strict liability is also imposed in respect of product failure, defective and hazardous goods. This liability shall also arise where a consumer is given inadequate instructions or warnings pertaining to any hazard that is likely to arise from the usage of the goods. Liability is said to be “strict” as a producer, importer, distributor or retailer shall be held liable irrespective of “whether the harm resulted from any negligence on the part of the producer, importer, distributor or retailer.” Such liability is joint and several and extends to suppliers of services whose rendering of services necessitates the application, supply, installation or provision of access to goods.

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    Motor cars are covered by the Consumer Protection Act and you are fully entitled to the full protection of the above Act.
    Your used car must be of good quality and usable for a reasonable time, there is no specific time mentioned but the car should have a six months warranty against defects.
    The consumer does have a right to request a refund if the vehicle is not of good quality or in a reasonable and drivable condition, keep in mind that you must have a good and legitimate reason to request a refund.

    http://www.saconsumercomplaints.co.za/about-us/: You can get a free opinion here, and detailed assistance on how to proceed.
    That squares with my feeling that the sale should cover latent and patent defects. Here was clearly a latent defect, possibly due to servicing not through the agents. Someone suggested due process was not followed. What due process, given the lockdown, the distance involved, the fact that the vehicle was barely drivable? I support approaching the Consumer Protection people, and at the same time suggesting that the seller consider the cost of obtaining a court injunction agains us driving around with big stickers on all our vehicles teling potential buyers not to trust dealer xxx. That should cost them a lot more than honouring their obligations.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    us driving around with big stickers on all our vehicles teling potential buyers not to trust dealer xxx. That should cost them a lot more than honouring their obligations.[/QUOTE]


    I would not go this route it might come back to bite you

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    Perhaps the route is to pursue the mechanical insurance guys, what evidence is there to show that the condition was existing when you bought the car, these insurance guys will do anything to
    get out of paying on a claim.
    Yes you didn't follow the process (ie get approval first) but maybe you can get assistance from insurance ombudsman.
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  4. #24
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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    Was the mechanical warranty part of the original purchase deal or through the same dealer?

    Because if it was then you may have a foot to stand on because dealers like bundling those with 2hnd vehicles to pass the buck on future repairs to the customer and it's natural to assume if you were sold a fully working vehicle as claimed by the dealer then any further work will be covered by the warranty. When the warranty provider claims it was a latent defect then it's safe to assume the dealer is liable for covering the repair cost or should cover a fair portion of it.

    That being said they should have been notified and been involved with any repair and authorisation thereof, that's what I don't get, why was that missing in this situation?

    You did mention this "I contacted the dealer in george and they said i must claim from the warranty company."

    So they did give an acknowledgement of the issue and go ahead to have it repaired, albeit with them wanting the warranty to pick up the bill. Them not making any kind of effort to cover the repair cost once the warranty wouldn't pay is not a fair deal, they are definitely liable for some of the cost.

    R12k is within the ambit of the small claims court, I wouldn't be surprised they'll pay up once they get a summons to appear in court, especially seeing the agents did the repair, hence credible evidence.
    Last edited by Skylark; 2020/08/13 at 11:50 PM.

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  6. #25
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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    Quote Originally Posted by ColeGP View Post
    Perhaps the route is to pursue the mechanical insurance guys, what evidence is there to show that the condition was existing when you bought the car, these insurance guys will do anything to
    get out of paying on a claim.
    Yes you didn't follow the process (ie get approval first) but maybe you can get assistance from insurance ombudsman.
    When signing up for a 3rd party Mechanical warranty, you get charged a "Inspection fee", This is a Approval that the company offering the warranty deemed your car in good order and they will insure your vehicle. Check your documents that you got with the warrenty, and call your financier to confirm that you have been charged the inspection fee.

    My story, I bought a Fortuner in November last year, got the warranty from MOTORITE, car went for service at Toyota dealer in January, they said my rack-ends needs to be replaced. Motorite said it was pre-existing, I said NO, YOU inspected the vehicle, and therefore deemed the car OK. Long story short, they didnt argue, they paid for the repair.
    (they probably didnt inspoect the car, just charged it)

    I dont have the docs with me now, but I will take a photo of the "inspection fee" on the policy cover, and post here when i can.

    My opinion, the dealer is of the hook here, they didn't knowingly sell you a car with problem. Fight with the warranty guys.

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  8. #26
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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    As vague as this is I am only making an assumption here not knowing what vehicle you are talking about, it is mentioned it is a "monster all wheel drive" and judging by some of the clues given if it is a all wheel drive with a difflock then it is possible the vehicle was accidently put into difflock. The symptoms sounds like binding of the powertrain or axles that would start with a minor shudder and escalate, I know of guys driving long distance in difflock and the diffs figuring things out as they drove between 2 points without the need to turn sharply and the axles only locked up when they turned sharply at their destination.

    The reason I mention this is that if so surely this could not have been a pre existing condition but caused by driving in difflock and then the warranty comes into play?
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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    Quote Originally Posted by Traction View Post
    As vague as this is I am only making an assumption here not knowing what vehicle you are talking about, it is mentioned it is a "monster all wheel drive" and judging by some of the clues given if it is a all wheel drive with a difflock then it is possible the vehicle was accidently put into difflock. The symptoms sounds like binding of the powertrain or axles that would start with a minor shudder and escalate, I know of guys driving long distance in difflock and the diffs figuring things out as they drove between 2 points without the need to turn sharply and the axles only locked up when they turned sharply at their destination.

    The reason I mention this is that if so surely this could not have been a pre existing condition but caused by driving in difflock and then the warranty comes into play?
    What all wheel drive vehicles has selectable difflocks?
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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    Quote Originally Posted by Die SwartKat View Post
    What all wheel drive vehicles has selectable difflocks?
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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    Lc 80vx. Some of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by die swartkat View Post
    what all wheel drive vehicles has selectable difflocks?
    Last edited by Henris; 2020/08/15 at 07:11 AM.
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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    Interesting case. As the problem surfaced on your first trip it would be difficult to proof that it wasn't pre-existing.

    Then, it becomes a matter of whether the George based dealer is considered to be the actual seller. Who does the sales contract stipulate as the seller?


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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    Quote Originally Posted by Die SwartKat View Post
    What all wheel drive vehicles has selectable difflocks?
    A land rover defender has this function.


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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeepiscool View Post
    Interesting case. As the problem surfaced on your first trip it would be difficult to proof that it wasn't pre-existing.

    Then, it becomes a matter of whether the George based dealer is considered to be the actual seller. Who does the sales contract stipulate as the seller?
    Having had dealings with a George Dealer that left me with a more than sour taste in my mouth, all I can say is, "I am not surprised this has gone sideways."
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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    Who is the Seller in Pretoria - a Private Individual or a Dealer??

    If its a Dealer, why didnt he give the Invoice as Seller, why did the George Dealer have to??
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  17. #34
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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    Thank you for all the posts.

    We are keeping everything very vague to avoid any accusations of bias.

    The vehicle is a permanent all wheel drive SUV type. There is a seller in Pretoria, a dealer (people that did the financing) in George, and the vehicle manufacturer agency in george that did the repair.

    I work 1000km from pretoria and 400km from george and 30km out of the nearest town.
    The nearest person that was willing to touch the car was the agent in george.

    I drove about 5000 km in the first 3 weeks and once i realised the seriousness of the problem i stopped any long distance driving. This caused difficulties with my employer, but they were understanding. I had no option but to drive to town for food once a week after that.

    This situation had become ridiculous after endlessly emailing and calling to try and get an answer.

    I believe it fell under an emergency repair. I looked at the cost of an 800km rollback recovery truck trip to transport the vehicle to george for an inspection. This would have left me without transport in the karoo for how long? It was also not covered by the warranty and the dealer would not pay.

    I am a qualified and licensed mechanical engineer in an industry that does not allow a single mistake on mechanical components. I could without a doubt diagnose and carry out the repair myself. I had a long discussion with the mechanics and workshop manager in George and it was guaranteed that my problem was the component that failed.
    I did not do that because of the warranty.

    I arranged with the dealer to order the spares (including the recall items) and drove the 400km, below 100km/h.
    My company lent me one of the george branch vehicles to get back to work.

    The dealer checked, confirmed and then replaced the component. I could collect my car 1 week later.

    I caught a lift to george and the vehicle has since done another 5000km with no problems whatsoever.

    All this during the peak of the pandemic with ridiculous travel restrictions and retrenchments. Communication is also patchy and internet is difficult.

    The seller now says i should have given them the opportunity to inspect the vehicle before they will decide if they will repair it.

    HOW THE F%÷* WOULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED AND HOW LONG WOULD IT HAVE TAKEN?

    Excuse me if i am a bit upset.
    Last edited by Alexvanwyk; 2020/08/16 at 07:27 AM. Reason: Spelling

  18. #35
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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    Alex - who was the Seller, where did you get the car from?? Individual or Dealer?? In Pretoria??

    By the Way - the responsible Seller here is the last Invoice, and that's the Dealer in George who sold you the Car via a Finance Agreement through a Bank. He is the "Last Seller", and the ONLY one through which you would have any chance of recourse. Even it sounds unfair/illogical - that's what it is, on paper.
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  20. #36
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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    Quote Originally Posted by Petri Oosthuizen View Post
    Alex - who was the Seller, where did you get the car from?? Individual or Dealer?? In Pretoria??

    By the Way - the responsible Seller here is the last Invoice, and that's the Dealer in George who sold you the Car via a Finance Agreement through a Bank. He is the "Last Seller", and the ONLY one through which you would have any chance of recourse. Even it sounds unfair/illogical - that's what it is, on paper.
    Thank you. I am not naming names yet, but that is how i read the situation too.
    As much as the guy in George is the wrong one to go after they are the people holding the bag full of cats.
    I am getting a full report from the dealer that did the repair and making a timeline with all the communication in it.

    I am going to present that to them for comment and final chance to settle, and then sending it all to the consumer protection commision.

    What i will need is advice on how that process must go. I am a mechanic, not a lawyer. I dont know where to begin.
    I always get the " what you should have done" conversation when everyone is pissed that i did not chase down a financial issue.
    This case was a substantial amount of money that i cant affort to let go.

  21. #37
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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    you’re not quite answering the necc question.
    PTA dealer sold you a car via financing through a george dealer.
    who is the seller in legal terms. Who invoiced you for the car?

    if the george dealer invoiced you for the car as the actual seller and this is the same george dealer you took the car to for repair then you have easy recourse against the george dealer.
    He has a relationship with the pta guy and let them sort it out betw themselves.
    Second, I assume a bank is involved as financier and not the dealer itself - if so use the bank to lean on the selling dealer (george not pta assuming george is the legal seller)

    If PTA is legally defined seller in agreement and invoice - then recourse against them but uphill battle given you didn’t notify. Lodge complaint with motor industry ombudsman and get your bank/finance co to assist to pressure same. Long shot but worth a go

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexvanwyk View Post
    Thank you. I am not naming names yet, but that is how i read the situation too.
    As much as the guy in George is the wrong one to go after they are the people holding the bag full of cats.
    I am getting a full report from the dealer that did the repair and making a timeline with all the communication in it.

    I am going to present that to them for comment and final chance to settle, and then sending it all to the consumer protection commision.

    What i will need is advice on how that process must go. I am a mechanic, not a lawyer. I dont know where to begin.
    I always get the " what you should have done" conversation when everyone is pissed that i did not chase down a financial issue.
    This case was a substantial amount of money that i cant affort to let go.

  22. #38
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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    Write the money off to school fees, you'll know better next time
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  23. #39
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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    Post 37..........agreed. The Seller who got paid is the Last Seller, and the ONLY one who needs to be communicated with. Sound like the George Dealer. For all practical references, there is no other Seller here.

    Agree 200% with Post 38........:

    1) The Seller in Pretoria AND the Dealer in George both had some sort of Financial Interest here.

    2) The Car is sorted now by the look of things??

    If it was me?? Get both Parties to - well - come to the Party. There are 3 Parties here - You, Seller in Pta and George Dealer.

    If everyone "gee bietjie skiet", your Costs can be reimbursed, or, at the VERY least, reduced by 2 Thirds.

    Just a Suggestion.

    And yes - the Dealer in George will want to sort this out, there is a Bank involved. Our MDA's (Master Dealer Agreements) specifically stipulates that Cars financed should be in good roadworthy condition.

    This Car was roadworthied in Pta, not George, am I right?? Meaning, the George Dealer did not do the RWC, yet you signed his Delivery Note??

    Just saying.........I dont really see any foul play etc etc from the George Dealer's side, BUT he IS the Last Seller, and an Approved Dealer, so he IS up to date with the CPA and all that. Everyone has to take one on the nose some time, and this is (unfortunately) HIS Invoice, so ja - that's it.

    Good Luck - talk to all the Parties, you just want your Costs back.
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  25. #40
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    Default Re: Sellers trying to duck out of obligations - advice please

    Quote Originally Posted by sparewheel View Post
    If your son autherised the repairs without notifying selling dealer, then I'd say he's on his own?
    Legally, and I'm no expert but have been in similar situation, the seller needs to be given the opportunity to put the error right unless it was pre-agreed that the repair be carried out in Cpt for x-cost. Your son's decision to to repair without consent has waived that right unfortunately. The CPT dealer could just as-well say he needs 4 new wheels and tires, gearbox and interior for all they know.... and yes,returning the car to the original dealer would be at your own cost, also standard procedure. I would take it up with the insurance, that's what you pay them for. Ombudsman perhaps.
    Last edited by Farway; 2020/08/17 at 09:03 AM.
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