Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users





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  1. #1
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    Default Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-...-grid/12461748

    South Australia suggests an annual fee to connect your solar to the grid, else those without solar are the only ones maintaining the grid network.

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    Default Re: Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    It's ###, but it's actually good economics. If 50% of people went off the grid, economies of scale dictate that the other 50% will pay almost double for their power. Keep that cycle going you end up without a grid at all.
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    Default Re: Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    That's what we do in SA already.
    Cheers

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    Default Re: Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    Fair point.

    Now imagine 50% of paying customers went off grid...
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    Default Re: Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    In CoCT, if you want to feed back, CoCT will charge one a fixed daily rate specifically for grid maintenance and repairs.

    Currently that is a non-starter for most, as they cannot pay you until the law changes, so it is done on a net metering basis.

    If CoCT wins the court case, THEN one can feed back as much as one can afford ito panels, making the daily rate a non-issue.
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    Default Re: Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    Fark that. I will never feed back into escum grid.

    Would rather use excess power to run an aircon in summer to cool the house or wall panels to heat house up in winter.

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    Default Re: Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    Will be watching CoCT if they win. Say you have to pay R30/day to feed back plus the nett meter you have to buy. This will play in the hands of the solar farms but not much of a gain for the average Joe?

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    Default Re: Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    Quote Originally Posted by spiffb52 View Post
    Fark that. I will never feed back into escum grid.

    Would rather use excess power to run an aircon in summer to cool the house or wall panels to heat house up in winter.
    I'm with you.
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    Default Re: Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    The problem is that the power grid is as much of a national asset and infrastructure requirement for a country to function as water and sanitation and roads.

    And it needs to be paid for, by whatever means. So even if you are completely off of the grid, somewhere somehow you will need to be paying towards it.

    For many many PV systems, being "almost" off-grid but still tied to the grid for your peak loads, or bad weather days, or equipment failure is a MAJOR positive.

    For the average modern home to go completely off-grid is a super expensive exercise. It might be OK for a farm or a holiday cottage or whatever, or even for the DIY enthusiast, but for Joe Public who wants a failsafe, guaranteed seamless supply - eina.
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    Default Re: Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    The problem is that the power grid is as much of a national asset and infrastructure requirement for a country to function as water and sanitation and roads.

    And it needs to be paid for, by whatever means. So even if you are completely off of the grid, somewhere somehow you will need to be paying towards it.
    Thanks Keith, that's a far better way of saying what I was trying to say.
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    Default Re: Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    Quote Originally Posted by spiffb52 View Post
    Fark that. I will never feed back into escum grid.

    Would rather use excess power to run an aircon in summer to cool the house or wall panels to heat house up in winter.
    This assumes you have excess capacity when you want it. Nett metering is IMO (and with a stable grid to back it up), the best solution. You can reduce the need for expensive batteries, and the grid needs to be there regardless, because we do not have the capability for businesses to generate large amounts. If 50% of consumers went off-grid, and the remaining 50% had to double their rate for grid fees, do you think large producers will absorb that cost, or just pass it down the chain?
    Last edited by petermoffat; 2020/07/17 at 07:37 AM.
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    Default Re: Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    Quote Originally Posted by petermoffat View Post
    This assumes you have excess capacity when you want it. Nett metering is IMO (and with a stable grid to back it up), the best solution. You can reduce the need for expensive batteries, and the grid needs to be there regardless, because we do not have the capability for businesses to generate large amounts. If 50% of consumers went off-grid, and the remaining 50% had to double their rate for grid fees, do you thing large producers will absorb that cost, or just pass it down the chain?
    When last did you see a business just absorb a cost and not pass it down the chain?
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    Default Re: Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    Quote Originally Posted by cainslie View Post
    When last did you see a business just absorb a cost and not pass it down the chain?
    Don't let facts ruin a good story
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    Default Re: Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    The problem is that the power grid is as much of a national asset and infrastructure requirement for a country to function as water and sanitation and roads.

    And it needs to be paid for, by whatever means. So even if you are completely off of the grid, somewhere somehow you will need to be paying towards it.

    For many many PV systems, being "almost" off-grid but still tied to the grid for your peak loads, or bad weather days, or equipment failure is a MAJOR positive.

    For the average modern home to go completely off-grid is a super expensive exercise. It might be OK for a farm or a holiday cottage or whatever, or even for the DIY enthusiast, but for Joe Public who wants a failsafe, guaranteed seamless supply - eina.
    This is very true, but for most people going off, or partially off grid is not a trendy choice, but a necessity because of the failure and unacceptably high cost of eskom. They have landed themselves in the situation they are in because of complete ineptitude and bad management and are now asking the country to continue to pay for that shocking management with no penalty to them.

    I believe in the premise of your argument, however I think eskom/SA Inc cannot expect people to pay for their continued existence with business as usual. They need to face some serious private sector competition in generation and distribution and they need to probably go into business rescue or something like it.

    They have shed huge numbers of jobs for capable (read white) engineers and replaced them with young and inexperienced guys. They then bring in consultants like Black and Veitch, McKinsey et al at huge cost to do the job that they should be doing, inflate coal prices on the back of BEE tenders and by pass mines and literally every item they procure is done at a huge markup to prop up the BEE system.

    I am not really sure of the answer, but I know that continuing to reward eskom for its complete failure is not it. I think the WC is on the right track with trying to deregulate their grid and allow non-eskom providers access to supply.

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    Default Re: Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    Will be watching CoCT if they win. Say you have to pay R30/day to feed back plus the nett meter you have to buy. This will play in the hands of the solar farms but not much of a gain for the average Joe?
    Depending on area, one I checked was R12.36/day ex VAT = R 14.21 per day.
    Meter is R12k + install or some such.
    As I said, TODAY the problem is the net metering.

    When the Munic can buy direct from me at wot, maybe R0.80c ex-Vat (old price) per kw, I would fill my roof with panels!

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    Quote Originally Posted by stephenplumb View Post
    I believe in the premise of your argument, however I think eskom/SA Inc cannot expect people to pay for their continued existence with business as usual. They need to face some serious private sector competition in generation and distribution and they need to probably go into business rescue or something like it.

    I think the WC is on the right track with trying to deregulate their grid and allow non-eskom providers access to supply.
    Ditto!

    CoCT owns the distribution network and must pay to maintain it. So they added a min R150 ex Vat per connection because of the solar uptake here.
    For them, Eskom is just another supplier. For example, recent loadshedding level 1, CoCT could have absorbed that without switching anyone off, as they already have some capacity they own outright.

    And when the court case entrenches their right to buy from anyone, court case is now to ensure the Gov will not make an about turn, then they can buy from anyone, maybe even me and the other signed off grid tied system.

    That is why CoCT is driving the registration of solar systems so hard ... to ensure NRS / SANS regulations are adhered to, as it will affect their distribution network, if they can buy from everyone who has and wants to, sell the power back.

    For a city without power, or water, is not going to attract future investments.
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    Default Re: Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post
    Depending on area, one I checked was R12.36/day ex VAT = R 14.21 per day.
    Meter is R12k + install or some such.
    As I said, TODAY the problem is the net metering.

    When the Munic can buy direct from me at wot, maybe R0.80c ex-Vat (old price) per kw, I would fill my roof with panels!

    https://www.westerncape.gov.za/energ...eed-tariff-map




    Ditto!

    CoCT owns the distribution network and must pay to maintain it. So they added a min R150 ex Vat per connection because of the solar uptake here.
    For them, Eskom is just another supplier. For example, recent loadshedding level 1, CoCT could have absorbed that without switching anyone off, as they already have some capacity they own outright.

    And when the court case entrenches their right to buy from anyone, court case is now to ensure the Gov will not make an about turn, then they can buy from anyone, maybe even me and the other signed off grid tied system.

    That is why CoCT is driving the registration of solar systems so hard ... to ensure NRS / SANS regulations are adhered to, as it will affect their distribution network, if they can buy from everyone who has and wants to, sell the power back.

    For a city without power, or water, is not going to attract future investments.
    WC or CoCT is also not challenging the deregulstion because of all the good stuff being mentioned only. They in it as a business and they need to recoup costs whether it's legal or maintenance costs etc. I find CoCT love to cost for everything and it may eventually become unfeasible for the small guy to feed back ti rhe grid on a cost effective basis in the long run. CoCT may then decide to come up with all sorts of plans to sweeten the deal...maybe purchase your equipment on a depreciated basis and/or rent it back to you or come up with some scheme to maintain the relationships going forward. These thoughts are based on past experiences on how they operate...water restriction costs come to mind...also trends in Australia wanting to charge a fee to off grid households to subsidize those on grid are signs to come. I may be completely wrong but CoCT will milk you for what its worth.
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    Default Re: Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    I may be completely wrong but CoCT will milk you for what its worth.
    My experience since 1992 in Cpt and surrounds, they are quite "in-tune" with what the people need, want.

    Where have you ever seen a council that you can email and ask for a refund, query a water meter reading, or where your drivers license is?
    No serious, I do not got to offices, that is so 1920. I email them.

    Like how we handled #DayZero. Everyone pulled together and lower our water consumption, and we still do.
    Like now with Covid, also under control.

    From what I've read, Cape Town realises very clearly that if they want to grow this city, draw more corporate HO's here, grow the local economy, lift up the overall living standards, supply free electricity to the poor, that they need to think broader, like investment in power and water, and to cover costs, not to make a profit, the way it is suppose to be.

    That is my understanding, broadly speaking, from all I've read on why they do things the way they do.

    I've been in touch with CoCT select officials since wot 2011/12, about selling power back to them.
    Have sent a few suggestions too on how to make it even more attractive for the home user. And each time they responded.

    And they do listen, saw this titbit recently in a article:
    Kadri Nassiep, Executive Director of Energy and Climate Change - City of Cape Town
    Itís OK to purchase solar panels [for your home] and then to feed back the surplus energy into the grid and have your bill reduced. The idea is to introduce financing options to allow homeowners to purchase these products over a much longer period, the purchase linked to the property. If you sell, the debt remains with the house. The idea is to buy as much rooftop generation as you can afford and youíll feed the surplus back into the Cityís network.



    It is not all "maanskyn en rose" either!

    We have had some slips and slides, and fighting some political parties who do their damnest to stop growth.
    But like with Lille, eventually the people speak up.
    Just need to quiet Zille now, retire woman, for Pete's sake(!), then all is sorted.
    And then to deal with that gangster issue, the drugs ... so yeah, we are getting there, one day at a time.
    Political Correctness
    Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional illogical minority, rabidly promoted by a unscrupulous mainstream media which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd ... by the clean end!

    Saw this in a pub - no idea why the wife does not see it so:
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  25. #18
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    Default Re: Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post
    My experience since 1992 in Cpt and surrounds, they are quite "in-tune" with what the people need, want.

    Where have you ever seen a council that you can email and ask for a refund, query a water meter reading, or where your drivers license is?
    No serious, I do not got to offices, that is so 1920. I email them.

    Like how we handled #DayZero. Everyone pulled together and lower our water consumption, and we still do.
    Like now with Covid, also under control.

    From what I've read, Cape Town realises very clearly that if they want to grow this city, draw more corporate HO's here, grow the local economy, lift up the overall living standards, supply free electricity to the poor, that they need to think broader, like investment in power and water, and to cover costs, not to make a profit, the way it is suppose to be.

    That is my understanding, broadly speaking, from all I've read on why they do things the way they do.

    I've been in touch with CoCT select officials since wot 2011/12, about selling power back to them.
    Have sent a few suggestions too on how to make it even more attractive for the home user. And each time they responded.

    And they do listen, saw this titbit recently in a article:
    Kadri Nassiep, Executive Director of Energy and Climate Change - City of Cape Town
    Itís OK to purchase solar panels [for your home] and then to feed back the surplus energy into the grid and have your bill reduced. The idea is to introduce financing options to allow homeowners to purchase these products over a much longer period, the purchase linked to the property. If you sell, the debt remains with the house. The idea is to buy as much rooftop generation as you can afford and youíll feed the surplus back into the Cityís network.



    It is not all "maanskyn en rose" either!

    We have had some slips and slides, and fighting some political parties who do their damnest to stop growth.
    But like with Lille, eventually the people speak up.
    Just need to quiet Zille now, retire woman, for Pete's sake(!), then all is sorted.
    And then to deal with that gangster issue, the drugs ... so yeah, we are getting there, one day at a time.
    You forgot the traffic, you will need to sort out the traffic

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    Default Re: Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    And it needs to be paid for, by whatever means. So even if you are completely off of the grid, somewhere somehow you will need to be paying towards it.
    maybe the cANCer needs to start by getting everybody that benefits to contribute, not just the previously privileged?
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    Default Re: Reverse Subsidising the Grid Tied Users

    Quote Originally Posted by faniedup View Post
    You forgot the traffic, you will need to sort out the traffic
    O shiite yes!!! There are NO more space for any more roads, and no, finishing that bridge left in the air will just cause more congestion.

    Solution 1: Smart busses, right?
    That bus route Blouberg side caused such a perfect political scoring point for some parties it was not funny. Where is the Guglethu side service?
    So politics needs to be sorted.

    Solution 2: Flexible office hours ... maybe now with Covid "work from home" it will take ... that would sort a lot of congestion.

    Solution 3: Trains, nice ones O so yes! Like Gautrain!
    But they are set alight!?
    Taxi gangsters must also be put on the STSON! list.
    "Sort This Shiite Out Now!"

    When I become the Benevolent Dictatorial President of the Republic of the W/Cape, no more cars in Cpt City Center.
    Only trains, busses and Ubers and Taxis.
    And minibus taxis will conform to the laws, every single one of them ... and no strikes whatsoever will be tolerated ever if they think to disagree.


    See, we are sorted here man!
    Political Correctness
    Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional illogical minority, rabidly promoted by a unscrupulous mainstream media which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd ... by the clean end!

    Saw this in a pub - no idea why the wife does not see it so:
    I'm not opinionated ... I'm just always right!

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