PTFE for our engines





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  1. #1
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    Default PTFE for our engines

    Since becoming aware of the consequences of the lack of ZDDP in our Rover V8 engines, I am very keen to find cost effective alternatives.

    I've noticed that George Bosch is very keen on PTFE additives but Wikipedia states:
    "In the 1980s and 1990s, additives with suspended PTFE particles were available e.g. "Slick50" to consumers to increase motor oil's ability to coat and protect metal surfaces. There is controversy as to the actual effectiveness of these products as they can coagulate and clog the oil filters. It is supposed to work under boundary lubricating conditions, which good engine designs tend to avoid anyway. Also teflon alone has little to no ability to firmly stick on a sheared surface, unlike molybdenum disulfide, for example".

    For now I'm using only Mobil V-twin (1800ppm ZDDP) in my Rovers and Mobil 1 15W50 in my Jags (1300ppm ZDDP) but both are very expensive - thus I'm keen to find a more cost effective alternative that will not solve one problem but create others.
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lrwit View Post
    Since becoming aware of the consequences of the lack of ZDDP in our Rover V8 engines, I am very keen to find cost effective alternatives.
    I've noticed that George Bosch is very keen on PTFE additives but Wikipedia states:
    "In the 1980s and 1990s, additives with suspended PTFE particles were available e.g. "Slick50" to consumers to increase motor oil's ability to coat and protect metal surfaces. There is controversy as to the actual effectiveness of these products as they can coagulate and clog the oil filters. It is supposed to work under boundary lubricating conditions, which good engine designs tend to avoid anyway. Also teflon alone has little to no ability to firmly stick on a sheared surface, unlike molybdenum disulfide, for example".
    For now I'm using only Mobil V-twin (1800ppm ZDDP) in my Rovers and Mobil 1 15W50 in my Jags (1300ppm ZDDP) but both are very expensive - thus I'm keen to find a more cost effective alternative that will not solve one problem but create others.
    There is controversy as to the actual effectiveness of these products as they can coagulate and clog the oil filters.

    ... the reason why I'll avoid PTFE.

    I believe that most modern oils are of good quality - no need for additives - just service regularly.
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  3. #3
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    Default

    i was told along time ago that those products like slick 50 and prolong were basically snake oil. here is what i mean. the bearings on your crank require a very tight tolerance like thousandth of an inch and when u use a product like prolong that "coats engine parts" you reduce that clearance meaning less oil can fit between bearing and the crank journal which results in heat buildup and damage. a much better route is to remove oil filter from it's std location. find a place on fenderwall and have a dual filter system piped in to run engine oil thru to clean the oil even better, and if possible ad an oil cooler to reduce oil temp and just keep your engine oil clean and u don't need all these "additives". even just keeping your factory oil setup changed regularly or even a bit ahead of schedule would increase engine life. and if you live in a dusty enviroment or high heat then also shorten oil change intervals.
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    Default

    I'm all for the use of these products in gearboxes, transfer cases or diffs, but would be hesitant to put it in the engine.
    "Do not try to win over the idiots - you are not the Jerk Whisperer.."

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    Default

    unlike the Slick 50, PolyTFE has far smaller particles and can pass through the filter and by all reports does not co-aggulate or drop out of suspension.
    as an engineering material it is briliant in its properties - one of the lowest friction materials available
    the ptfe in theory act as microscopic elastic ball bearings.
    i've had some sitting here at home quietly maturing.
    i assessed the container the other day and could not notice any evidence of seperation or dropping out of suspension.
    under operating temperatures such as found in gearboxes the likelyhood of the PTFE being broken down by heat is miniscule.
    in practical terms i have seen quieter smoother operation from the gearboxes, transfer cases and diffs treated with it.
    i still have to assess the effect on engines in practical terms.
    it probably does have a good performance but realistically you lose it all with every oil change.

    Land Rovers never die, they simply become organ donors!

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    Default

    Hi,
    Thread tape, that thin plastic white tape we use to seal our pipe connections, that is PTFE.
    Take a piece of this tape and cut it into the tiniest pieces you can achieve, then roll these pieces into a ball. Better yet, chew on it. You will have a ball of soft plastic which is capable of clogging small oil passages in your engine.
    Regardless of what shape or size these PTFE particles are ground down to, your engine can still press them into a pile which can clog the oil passages.

    Do you really want to chuck this stuff into your engine?
    Duarte

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectator View Post
    I'm all for the use of these products in gearboxes, transfer cases or diffs, but would be hesitant to put it in the engine.
    I was present at a Prolong "ball bearing" demonstration at a Refinery. The mechanical department was looking at means to extend the service life of their pumps which had catalyst (metal based) contamination that dramatically shortened the maintenance cycle.
    The pump vendor's recommended oil was tested against Prolong, in clean and catalyst contaminated samples. Long story short, they ended up using Prolong..........
    Last edited by Kiri; 2012/01/27 at 04:56 AM.
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    Some years ago i owned a Nissan twincab with a vg30 engine!the previous owner used to drive the crap out of it! was modified by VANDRELINDE! so it could go!! but high revving engines tend to use oil, as some sort of preventative maintenance i added prolong mechanic in a can to my oil, and on more than one occasion towing back from Sabie, i could hear the tappets making a noise,when i stopped to check the oil no level on the dip stick! topped up with oil and off i went, sold it with 300+ on the clock still going like the clappers!!! I come from a aircraft mechanical back ground and they would not use additives! but for me that mechanic in a can has worked his magic!! just remember all the additives on the market cannot fix something thats broken!! it mite just PROLONG THE INEVETIBLE! Engines wear and somewhere in its life its going to need a overhaul!!if u add some of this snake oil u could just extent your usage of it and not need to overhaul it! it could also just be that insurance ticket u mite need if u neglect to check your engine oil on a regular basis!!
    Last edited by NEON DEON; 2012/01/27 at 06:51 AM.

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    George Bosch's TDV6 is the quietest, smoothest TDV6 I have ever driven. You gotta ask why

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    Default

    Doesn't one of the LR guys sell it.
    Maybe he would comment.
    A legend in his own mind

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alf View Post
    Hi,
    Thread tape, that thin plastic white tape we use to seal our pipe connections, that is PTFE.
    Take a piece of this tape and cut it into the tiniest pieces you can achieve, then roll these pieces into a ball. Better yet, chew on it. You will have a ball of soft plastic which is capable of clogging small oil passages in your engine.
    Regardless of what shape or size these PTFE particles are ground down to, your engine can still press them into a pile which can clog the oil passages.

    Do you really want to chuck this stuff into your engine?
    Duarte

    Not quite the same thing.
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  12. #12
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    Default Confusion

    Hi guys

    there were some interesting comments in this thread. The one common denominator amongst them was that with the exception of 2 most of the contributors haven't got a clue what they were commenting on.

    There was a lot of damage done in the late '80's and 90's with some very dubious products, that indeed caused oil passage blocking. The worst one of those was an SA product, that used coarsely milled ptfe added to some base oil. About 95% of that sh*t ended up in the oil filter. Quite a few Unimog gearboxes got destroyed by that specific product.

    Poly-TFE in contrast uses nano-sized particles, that stay in suspension and have anti-clogging properties, i.e. they repel each other.

    For more info please contact Landyluvver who I believe sells this product, which I have been using for 20 years now.
    Last edited by hgbosch; 2012/01/27 at 09:12 AM.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rolf View Post
    Not quite the same thing.
    True Rolf, but close enough.
    In truth we really don't need these additives in our engines or gearboxes, this is not the 1980's. I would rather change the oil more frequently than use PTFE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alf View Post
    True Rolf, but close enough.
    In truth we really don't need these additives in our engines or gearboxes, this is not the 1980's. I would rather change the oil more frequently than use PTFE.
    I have a 1972 Mercedes which I believe might benefit from this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgbosch View Post
    Hi guys.....
    For more info please contact
    Landyluvver who I believe sells this product,
    which I have been using for 20 years now.
    Ah, it all makes sense now.
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  16. #16
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    i will add it at a customer's request but will not actively promote the product as i do not represent the company.
    results especially on diffs, transfer cases and gearboxes have been very impressive but cannot vouch for it other than claims made by the supplier.

    Land Rovers never die, they simply become organ donors!

  17. #17
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    I have recently tried the product and can't really comment too much about it. Lube service done mid Dec 2011, added the correct mix for both diffs, TC and as well as for the gearbox. I will only use this product in the these and not the engine. I feel that regular oil changes for your engine will be sufficent. I also feel that if not wading in serious ammounts of water, you could extend the diffs lube change to longer period.
    The oils in the various items are fairly new, felt very much the same when i did the standard lube change last. So i trust and hope that the additive is helping where it should be and adding protection to the many coggs its running through.
    My 5 cents....
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alf View Post
    Ah, it all makes sense now.
    Glad to read that it makes sense to you. I do however doubt that you understand the benefits of such a product relating to the longterm reliability of the drivetrain of motor vehicles.

    BTW noisy PAS systems of Land Rovers can be made quiet again by the addition of 200ml of Poly-TFE "Hydraulic".

    Works (nearly) every time, except where fluid leaks are the cause of the noise.
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    I purchased a 3.0 SGLi Skyline that indicated oil pressure of under 0.5bar, no matter what. I asked some guys who told me at the time that an oil pump either works or it does not, so I drove the vehicle, but was using Duralube in a work bakkie (1400 with just over 400K km at the time). I drove the Skyline for three years till one day out of boredom, I decided to "calibrate" my Skyline factory fitted oil pressure gauge with that I had fitted in my bakkie (VDO unit). To my surprise the skyline had been indicating correctly for all this time with oil pressure at between .2 and .5 bar at operating temp.

    I was told by mechanics that this was way to low and that if I continued this practice the engine would be history in just a few km's. Only thing that I could think had been keeping this engine going for three years with no oil pressure was the Duralube.

    I pulled the pump and replaced the pressure release valve spring which raised the pressure to around 1.5Bar at idle and up to 4bar at higher revs.

    I eventually sold the Skyline with 450K km with motor that was never opened and did not use any oil between services. The Datsun bakkie I scrapped at just over 600Km due to metal fatigue that saw shocks and other suspension bits break off constantly. The motor was still running and also not using oil.

    Not sure I want to be putting this stuff in my diesel motor though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landyluvver View Post
    i will add it at a customer's request but will not actively promote the product as i do not represent the company.
    results especially on diffs, transfer cases and gearboxes have been very impressive but cannot vouch for it other than claims made by the supplier.
    Hi LL,
    As long as the oil level is OK and water\dirt is kept out, there shouldn't be a problem. I am not aware of any reputable supplier who uses PTFE in there products. I googled PTFE use in the states, the lawsuits have supported my opinion.
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