Ineos Grenadier revealed!! - Page 12





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  1. #221
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Danie Pienaar View Post
    I think it would be very difficult to compare the sales of the new Defender with that of the Grenadier. The new Defender has been refined/softened in such a manner that it would draw a large appeal from "urban" users as well, I think. Many people driving Discoveries, Prados, Pajeros, X5's etc. would probably consider the new Defender as a great alternative. With the old Defender, people bought it mainly because it was a hard-core offroader with a great heritage and iconic design (i.e. it did not really appeal to urban users wanting comfort and refinement).

    The people buying the Grenadier would mainly just be offroad enthusiasts (i.e. ex Defender, Land Cruiser, Patrol and Wrangler owners).

    I, for one, would love to own a Grenadier one day!!
    Nah, why grenadier? An LC70 series will do the job just fine. Heck even a Prado TX really.

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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

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  3. #223
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by byaru1 View Post
    Nah, why grenadier? An LC70 series will do the job just fine. Heck even a Prado TX really.
    Depends on the application if the Prado TX could do the job.

    There were things about the Defender that were better to many people than the LC70, it's why they didn't buy a LC70 in the first place.

    Also the Grenadier will be more comfortable, with better performance. Not saying that the LC70 won't be better in certain markets for certain applications, but there is room for a Defender replacement.
    Last edited by Fontuin; 2020/07/12 at 06:35 PM.
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  4. #224
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fontuin View Post
    Depends on the application if the Prado TX could do the job.
    Well of course. But by and large.

    There were things about the Defender that were better to many people than the LC70, it's why they didn't buy a LC70 in the first place.
    While your statement is largely true I also think one of the main issues at play is brand loyalty or is it snobbery..

    Also the Grenadier will be more comfortable, with better performance. Not saying that the LC70 won't be better in certain markets for certain applications, but there is room for a Defender replacement.
    The LC70 major advantage over them all is reliability. Let's see how the grenadier fares in that department.

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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by byaru1 View Post
    Well of course. But by and large.

    While your statement is largely true I also think one of the main issues at play is brand loyalty or is it snobbery..

    The LC70 major advantage over them all is reliability. Let's see how the grenadier fares in that department.
    Agreed on all accounts.
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    I like, Hope parts outside engine are Toyota readily available. If this is widely successful hope other manufacturers follow suit, yes you Toyota.

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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    https://www.ft.com/content/c90cc60e-...c-0fcedfe8426c (Edit: Link not working now)


    "Previously unreported details about the project show how Ineos also plans to undercut JLR on price while offering a full range of models familiar to buyers of the old Defender, according to several people briefed on the project.

    The company will launch a long-wheelbase model of the vehicle late next year, with a shorter version and a pick-up model to follow. It expects to produce 30,000 cars a year.

    The price will start at £30,000 and rise to £45,000, according to two people who have seen the plans.Ineos declined to comment".
    Last edited by Byron; 2020/07/13 at 12:58 PM.
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  8. #228
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Here's an article from The Daily Telegraph..
    <https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/features/ineos-grenadier-need-know-4x4-taking-classic-land-rover-defender>

    And if anyone's interested, The Grenadier pub serves up a very fine pint which is especially welcome on a summer's day when one can lounge about in the mews with a few mates and a few beers putting the world to rights.

  9. #229
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    I see there is huge interest in this "should-have-been-the-new-Defender" but I am suspicious. All of the videos of the vehicle are CGI - that is, animations like Toy Story. They spent a lot of time and money on smoke and mirrors. What's real in all this? A static chassis and some shiny bits. The BMW drivetrain will cost £10K on its own, so you know that £35K starter price is impossible. They are getting help from Magna (who assemble the G-Wagen) and I predict the price (if this ever happens) will be closer to £100K than £35K. They don't work cheap. And it's going to be built by inexperienced (but expensive) UK workers in a new plant? Give that five years. BTW, petrol and diesel vehicles are banned in the UK from 2035, so I hope they bring Dyson on board to get the electric model ready ASAP. Come to think of it - this reminds me of Dyson and Branson (Virgin) lots of PR and little substance.

    Now back to the drivetrain. A BMW six-pot? Lovely engine, but it doesn't meet current US or EU emissions AFAIK. In fact, the six-pot diesel never met EPA - so is BMW going to make it compliant for free? No - they have ditched that engine. So as long as Ineos doesn't care about the EU or US market, that's fine? No - it will have to be some other engine (gearbox, management). Like I said - a fantasy. Just look at how hard it was for a company with teh resources of Tata to finally bring out their Defender. And you think some pub startup is going to beat them at their own game? Wishful thinking can only take you so far...

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  11. #230
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by CanAmSteve View Post
    The BMW drivetrain will cost £10K on its own,
    OK, but not at the planned massive scale. I'm sure there would be concessions and synergy here and there to have it at even 4k .

    so you know that £35K ... price is impossible....
    Of course it is. Nothing is impossible
    35k could be a bare bones short wheel base version with no creature comforts and may be a NA petrol engine. It is possible from many fronts.

    They are getting help from Magna (who assemble the G-Wagen) and I predict the price (if this ever happens) will be closer to £100K than £35K.
    Very, very unlikely. The 100k possible for a g63amg competitor, but never an old defender replacement. And of course they know that.

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  13. #231
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    There are also rumors that it will come standard with air compressor, dual battery and sizable inverter.

    "A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory"

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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    My prediction:

    There are already 231 more posts in this thread than the number of units that will be sold in RSA
    Last edited by Dungbeetle; 2020/07/13 at 04:12 PM.
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dungbeetle View Post
    My prediction:

    There are already 231 more posts in this thread than the number of units that will be sold in RSA


    I'm one of those skeptics too.

  16. #234
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    [QUOTE=byaru1;4431888]OK, but not at the planned massive scale. I'm sure there would be concessions and synergy here and there to have it at even 4k .


    I understand the desire to believe in this project, but I think £10K is a conservative cost for the engine, gearbox and management (which will have to be custom designed). Not that it matters, because, as I pointed out - it won't be saleable in either the US or EU/UK without a huge development effort (it can't meet current emissions) so it makes no sense to choose it. Remember when Rover offered to sell V8s back to GM in the 1970s? $2000 per engine, IIRC. (That's just about $10K in today's money - for an engine alone). What did JLR pay for the Puma driveline to squeeze more life out of the old Defender? And there will never be "huge production" (if any) of Grenadiers, at any price. The old Defender itself was low-volume. Makes no commercial sense and is totally unrealistic. There will be no market, sadly. Oh sure, a lot of 4X4 enthusiasts will want one. but they will live in the US, UK, EU or Australia where it will have to have a 2030 compliant driveline to make commercial sense - and in the UK petrol and diesel will be banned from 2035. I really think people are living in a dream world on this one. Unless Ineos has the electric model in parallel development (which would be cheaper and better, but would not excite the traditionalists)

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40726868

    "When will petrol and diesel cars be banned?The ban is being introduced in 2035 - five years earlier than previously planned.
    Experts said the original target of 2040 would be too late if the UK wanted to achieve its target of emitting virtually zero carbon by 2050.
    The ban is also being expanded to hybrid cars and plug-in hybrids, which had not been included under the original proposals.
    As a result, people will be able to buy only electric or hydrogen cars and vans."

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  18. #235
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by CanAmSteve View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by byaru1
    OK, but not at the planned massive scale. I'm sure there would be concessions and synergy here and there to have it at even 4k .

    I understand the desire to believe in this project, but I think £10K is a conservative cost for the engine, gearbox and management (which will have to be custom designed). Not that it matters, because, as I pointed out - it won't be saleable in either the US or EU/UK without a huge development effort (it can't meet current emissions) so it makes no sense to choose it. Remember when Rover offered to sell V8s back to GM in the 1970s? $2000 per engine, IIRC. (That's just about $10K in today's money - for an engine alone). What did JLR pay for the Puma driveline to squeeze more life out of the old Defender? And there will never be "huge production" (if any) of Grenadiers, at any price. The old Defender itself was low-volume. Makes no commercial sense and is totally unrealistic. There will be no market, sadly. Oh sure, a lot of 4X4 enthusiasts will want one. but they will live in the US, UK, EU or Australia where it will have to have a 2030 compliant driveline to make commercial sense - and in the UK petrol and diesel will be banned from 2035. I really think people are living in a dream world on this one. Unless Ineos has the electric model in parallel development (which would be cheaper and better, but would not excite the traditionalists)

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40726868

    "When will petrol and diesel cars be banned?The ban is being introduced in 2035 - five years earlier than previously planned.
    Experts said the original target of 2040 would be too late if the UK wanted to achieve its target of emitting virtually zero carbon by 2050.
    The ban is also being expanded to hybrid cars and plug-in hybrids, which had not been included under the original proposals.
    As a result, people will be able to buy only electric or hydrogen cars and vans."
    OK I'm missing the main crux of your argument around those BMW engines not "sellable" in EU and US.

    If those engines are selling in current BMW products, why are they not "sellable" in the grenadier?

  19. #236
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by byaru1 View Post
    OK I'm missing the main crux of your argument around those BMW engines not "sellable" in EU and US.

    If those engines are selling in current BMW products, why are they not "sellable" in the grenadier?
    AFAIK, BMW has dropped the straight-six-pot (which Ineos says they will use) entirely - at least in "emissions" markets (which is where the money is). The diesel version was never US-legal, meaning any attempt to bring it to standards now would be an even greater task. US diesel emissions are very strict - you will recall the small problem VW had faking their compliance - which cost them many millions and sent execs to jail.

    I too would really like to be positive and believe this is all true, but it is info like this (BMW straight-six) which leads me to believe this is more playing to the crowd and potentially just to get investors on board. We will see, I guess

  20. #237
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Will it sell? I think not. This guy says it best:


    https://youtu.be/PijL_deQQ-Q

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  22. #238
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    I am not sure this will make it at a competitive price to SA.
    Ineos dont have any export credits in SA as many of the big manufacturers have so lets just have a very rough look at the price.
    At the cheapest rumoured price of 30 000 British pounds(retail in UK I assume) at the current exchange rate it works out at R650 000.
    Problem is that on top of that price will be shipping to SA, and I have no idea how much that is, but as soon as it lands in SA and has been 'certified' to be sold here it will be slammed with a 40% duty fee. That price (R910 000) will be increased by 10% (R1001000) before VAT is slapped on to it bringing the total to R1060150.
    This is at the lowest rumored price. If we up that to 45 000 Pound it comes to over R1.5m.

    I know of the flaws in my calculation ie. working on retail price, but as mentioned I did not include shipping price, setting up shop in SA with all the overheads associated to staff, premisses, workshops etc which should offset the flaw in my calculation.

    Then, speaking of setting up shop in SA. Where/how will they do it? 5 shops in big cities? Where will all their potential customers living in the sticks have their cars serviced? or will Ineos sell it without a warranty making it possible to be serviced by any local mechanic?

  23. #239
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Ok, so dit is n copy van n defender.
    As hulle nie hul gatte roer, gaan die chineses ook hul weergawe van n copy van n defender uit bring, wat basies identies soos die grenadier kan/mag lyk (hey, is is klaar besig om te copy, so fair game), maar met n cummins 2.8 copy engine. En verskillende konfigurasies.
    Voor die grenadier eens een enkele weergawe gebou het.

    En dan gaan die chineses net sÍ grenadier het hul copy, gecopy...
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  24. #240
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Beste opsie vir almal:
    Verkoop konsep nou terug aan Land Rover, en laat land rover dit langsaan die nuwe defender verkoop.

    Dan is almal gelukkig. Netwerk is daar. Backup is daar. Loyaliteit is daar.
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