Ineos Grenadier revealed!! - Page 13





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  1. #241
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zapiture View Post
    Will it sell? I think not. This guy says it best:


    https://youtu.be/PijL_deQQ-Q
    The funniest part of his whole video is his reaction to the new Defender!
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  3. #242
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    I'm so glad that Ineos are developing this vehicle and not you naysayers. Do you really believe that they are going to launch this car with engines that can't be sold in their 2 biggest markets?

    BMW 6 cylinder diesels are sold both in the USA and Europe. And if the buyer in the USA (or anywhere else for that matter) doesn't want a diesel then they have the option of a 6 cylinder petrol. Bases covered. No combustion engines sold in the UK after 2035, so what, that is 14 years after launch. At least one life cycle of your product, plenty of time to develop an alternative.

    I don't believe we'll see different engines for Africa, it won't be worth their time, money or effort to do so. However I'm sure they will adapt the vehicle as best they can for African conditions (no DPF's, extra filtering etc).

    My only grouch so far is the lack of a manual, but a manual gearbox may not be able to handle the torque of the diesel reliably (600nm I reckon), and if your biggest market is the USA and Europe then a manual is not likely to sell in volume anyway. There are plenty of LC70 and Defender drivers who'd love an automatic, so they just might be onto something here.

    Don't forget this car is being developed by Britain's wealthiest man. A man with a passion for Defenders, who Land Rover has pissed off. He's clearly not an idiot. I'm really looking forward to this vehicle.

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  5. #243
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by RobH View Post
    I don't believe we'll see different engines for Africa, it won't be worth their time, money or effort to do so. However I'm sure they will adapt the vehicle as best they can for African conditions (no DPF's, extra filtering etc).
    True, as other manufacturers are doing. To drink our good African diesel, the X5 for example up until the latest 2020 model has EU3 emission engine for its 30d motor in SA. No DPFs etc. I think LR too has the same for all its diesels.?

    I wonder why the *"[email protected]& the LC70 was given dpf for the 4.5d4d.
    Last edited by byaru1; 2020/07/14 at 08:43 AM.

  6. #244
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    the good news is that a local outfit is in the process of applying to Ineos to become the ZA dealer
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  7. #245
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    The emissions issues pointed out by earlier posters are a real concern I think: anyone see anything anywhere in the Ineos website where they address that?

    If they are planning retail only in markets where emissions are not the same concern as they are in Europe and North America, the pricing is going to be even more out of this world.

    Unless Sir Jim plans to dilute his assets into funding the development for the love of the project.
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  8. #246
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Jim didn't get to be a billionaire by giving away money: he spotted a gap in the market, devised a solution, and will expect to make a profit on it.

    If there is no profit, expect a swift axe to fall. As he did moving the factory to Europe now that things are not looking good for the UK.
    2010 Defender Puma 90 + BAS remap + Alive IC + Slickshift + Ashcroft ATB rear
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  9. #247
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Land Rover has really missed their market with the new Defender. (and Disco 5 for that matter). Unless they decided they are moving all their products "upmarket" and dont care about the traditional Defender owner. They may be repositioning the products and company completely. Profitability may dictate and rule the roost.

    If the above is the case, then I feel sorry for the brand loyal Defender owner. People have built lives around LR's for decades - all forgotten.

    I think Grenadier will fill the traditional Defender gap and successfully so. Price will be the deciding factor. Multiple application possibilities will be another deal maker. If they ensure that they have all the platforms including bakkies, single and double cabs plus a chassis cab configuration, then they should see good sales. Power companies, motorhome builders, fire trucks, game viewers etc.

    It is a shift in the market place and a reminder that nothing last forever. BUT reliability will be king.

    Wonder what Toyota, Nissan, Jeep and others are planning. They must have taken note of this development.
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  10. #248
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JBX View Post
    Land Rover has really missed their market with the new Defender. (and Disco 5 for that matter). Unless they decided they are moving all their products "upmarket" and dont care about the traditional Defender owner. They may be repositioning the products and company completely. Profitability may dictate and rule the roost.
    This is indeed the case.
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  12. #249
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by oradba69 View Post
    I am not sure this will make it at a competitive price to SA.
    Ineos don't have any export credits in SA as many of the big manufacturers have so let's just have a very rough look at the price.
    Agreed - and given it could never, ever in a million years be made and sold profitably for 30, it's even worse than you suggest. A small Nissan Juke - made in the UK at one of the largest and most efficient plants - is 20K. Somehow a complete newcomer to the industry, with no efficiencies of scale, is going to build a new vehicle that cheaply in a new plant with new workers in the expensive UK? Most of the cheap cars in the UK are built in eastern Europe or Asia. Nissan can compete because of all the robots, of course.

    But SA is not a market anyone aims a car at. If you are on the inside like the current players with SA plants, you can mint it. But as noted, the import duties to protect the market (plus many other restrictions on imports just to make it as difficult as possible) make it difficult for any new players, or even for individuals to do a personal import. I suppose the recent tanking of the Rand helps exports, but SA's car manufacturing runs the risk of going the way Australia's did - i.e. going away entirely almost overnight. The exception to the above are the 1% of course - look at the number of supercars seen on CT or JHB roads - it rivals London. There's money for a few expensive toys - which is where I predict the Grenadier ends up

  13. #250
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    As a Defender owner I have no intention of selling my Defenders, on the contrary I'll add to them if good ones come up at a good price.
    I do not see the Grenadier as a replacement I see it as a POTENTIAL addition. There are still far to many unknowns to properly evaluate the vehicle and it would have to be on the market for years before it would even stand a chance of gaining any type of following never mind the cult following of a Defender. At the moment it's all rather clever hype.
    At this stage I'd rather buy a 1hz Cruiser with proven background, spares etc than a theoretical Grenadier.
    I seriously hope it's a fantastic, reliable, easy to fix utility vehicle at a decent cost, the market needs one and if it is I'm in, if not no, supper simple.
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  15. #251
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by 2.8i rocks View Post
    As a Defender owner I have no intention of selling my Defenders, on the contrary I'll add to them if good ones come up at a good price.
    I do not see the Grenadier as a replacement I see it as a POTENTIAL addition. There are still far to many unknowns to properly evaluate the vehicle and it would have to be on the market for years before it would even stand a chance of gaining any type of following never mind the cult following of a Defender. At the moment it's all rather clever hype.
    At this stage I'd rather buy a 1hz Cruiser with proven background, spares etc than a theoretical Grenadier.
    I seriously hope it's a fantastic, reliable, easy to fix utility vehicle at a decent cost, the market needs one and if it is I'm in, if not no, supper simple.

    have to agree

    I'd rather buy a slightly ratty Real Defender and spend a couple of 100k on getting it where I want it.

    And to be honest, there is very little in real terms that needs to be done:

    - internal roll cage
    - side impact bars/rock sliders
    - move the front seats 4 inches inward each
    - move the steering wheel inwards 4 inches
    - move the hand brake lever to between the seats
    - some nice Mud consoles
    - some lockers and Ashcroft/KAM drivetrain bits
    - a proper tweaked manual IP TDi or at worst an LT1
    - auto box or else a clutch mod
    - waterproof it properly
    - uprate the suspension
    - proper front bullbar with grill and light protection
    - LED lights inside and out
    - decent seats

    Most of the above is possible using over the shelf stuff. Not rocket science.
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  17. #252
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    have to agree

    I'd rather buy a slightly ratty Real Defender and spend a couple of 100k on getting it where I want it.

    And to be honest, there is very little in real terms that needs to be done:

    - internal roll cage
    - side impact bars/rock sliders
    - move the front seats 4 inches inward each
    - move the steering wheel inwards 4 inches
    - move the hand brake lever to between the seats
    - some nice Mud consoles
    - some lockers and Ashcroft/KAM drivetrain bits
    - a proper tweaked manual IP TDi or at worst an LT1
    - auto box or else a clutch mod
    - waterproof it properly
    - uprate the suspension
    - proper front bullbar with grill and light protection
    - LED lights inside and out
    - decent seats

    Most of the above is possible using over the shelf stuff. Not rocket science.

    Ineos Engineer, posing as Jelo

  18. #253
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by BarryCH View Post
    Ineos Engineer, posing as Jelo
    why thank you, that's a compliment
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    why thank you, that's a compliment
    was not meant to be a negative comment.

    Just sounds like what Ineos are doing, taking a good concept and improving / refining it, no reinventing the wheel, hopefully economies of scale can cause this to be reasonably priced. The fact that it is engineering led as opposed to marketing and accounting (well at least according to the marketing machine at work) gives me hope, and i drive a Toyota.

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  21. #255
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by RobH View Post
    I'm so glad that Ineos are developing this vehicle and not you naysayers. Do you really believe that they are going to launch this car with engines that can't be sold in their 2 biggest markets?

    BMW 6 cylinder diesels are sold both in the USA and Europe. And if the buyer in the USA (or anywhere else for that matter) doesn't want a diesel then they have the option of a 6 cylinder petrol. Bases covered. No combustion engines sold in the UK after 2035, so what, that is 14 years after launch. At least one life cycle of your product, plenty of time to develop an alternative.

    I don't believe we'll see different engines for Africa, it won't be worth their time, money or effort to do so. However I'm sure they will adapt the vehicle as best they can for African conditions (no DPF's, extra filtering etc).

    My only grouch so far is the lack of a manual, but a manual gearbox may not be able to handle the torque of the diesel reliably (600nm I reckon), and if your biggest market is the USA and Europe then a manual is not likely to sell in volume anyway. There are plenty of LC70 and Defender drivers who'd love an automatic, so they just might be onto something here.

    Don't forget this car is being developed by Britain's wealthiest man. A man with a passion for Defenders, who Land Rover has pissed off. He's clearly not an idiot. I'm really looking forward to this vehicle.
    AFAIK, there is no straight-six BMW engine sold in either the US or EU - does not meet current regulations. Happy to be proven wrong, but it's fours and V6s AFAIK. For good reasons. It's a "vintage" engine. A great engine. But not one that can be sold in either (huge) market. By the time the Grenadier hits the road - even if we ignore everything else - it will be 2025 at least - so all that work and money for a ten year lifespan at most? That's a terrible investment. Because few will buy a new car they know is going to be discontinued. Except Defender owners, of course :-) I guess that explains why I have a 1HZ LC parked beside the 300tdi Defender

    No BMW diesels in the USA. I don't know how many times I have to say this - Google for yourself. Too expensive, too hard to pass US emissions, petrol too cheap - no buyers. You have to understand the car business is global in nature and that the future is electric. BMW is of course developing cleaner diesels, but even if they met US requirements, I doubt they would bring them in - just no market for them

    https://www.autoblog.com/2018/09/11/...d-states-2019/

  22. #256
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Steve,

    The 3 litre BMW engines are straight 6's, both petrol and diesel. They are the same engines that you get in the 7, 5 , X7, X5 and even lower ranked vehicles. They do not make a V6.

    Diesels might not be popular, and if the diesel in the Grenadier isn't popular or allowed in the US then the petrol will have to do. They are doing a petrol Grenadier, so they will still be able to sell vehicles in the US. In fact I bet that the petrol is on offer for this exact reason - everywhere else in the world a diesel 4x4 will outsell a petrol by a hefty margin (maybe not the Arab countries, granted), but in the US the opposite is true.

    Ineos is not some backyard company taking a chance on making a vehicle that it hopes will sell. There is a market in the States for what they are building.

    Edit - can't get onto the BMW ASA sight at the moment to verify if they sell diesels or not.
    Last edited by RobH; 2020/07/14 at 03:32 PM.

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  24. #257
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JBX View Post
    Wonder what Toyota, Nissan, Jeep and others are planning. They must have taken note of this development.
    Toyota needs not plan anything. They have the 70 series cruiser. Perhaps just perfecting it, especially with an auto and a bit more niceties.

  25. #258
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by RobH View Post
    Steve,

    The 3 litre BMW engines are straight 6's, both petrol and diesel. They are the same engines that you get in the 7, 5 , X7, X5 and even lower ranked vehicles. They do not make a V6.

    Diesels might not be popular, and if the diesel in the Grenadier isn't popular or allowed in the US then the petrol will have to do. They are doing a petrol Grenadier, so they will still be able to sell vehicles in the US. In fact I bet that the petrol is on offer for this exact reason - everywhere else in the world a diesel 4x4 will outsell a petrol by a hefty margin (maybe not the Arab countries, granted), but in the US the opposite is true.

    Ineos is not some backyard company taking a chance on making a vehicle that it hopes will sell. There is a market in the States for what they are building.

    Edit - can't get onto the BMW ASA sight at the moment to verify if they sell diesels or not.
    I do see the straight-six remains in Europe - although it appears reserved for the very top-end models (so will probably be the most expensive for Ineos to obtain). I was wrong on V6s - apologies and thanks for the correction. I had a 330ci and pay more attention to the bread and butter offerings. But I see no BMW diesels in the US. The 540d was offered on and off but no more. Happy to follow your link to the 2020/1 model but I cannot find a diesel on the BMW US website.

    It does look like the 540d came and went in the US - so potentially it did/does meet US EPA. But these regs get tougher every year so I think it's iffy that they will continue to make a US-compliant version for such small numbers of sales. Which brings me back to the cost argument and the Grenadier's potential to be sold at 35K

    How many million vehicles has Ineos made that they are going to beat the already established (and already in deep trouble) competitors? They may have great engineers and tons of money - but look how hard it was for our SA/Canadian/American friend Musk to get Tesla up an running. And that's a relatively simple electric vehicle. I'm sorry for being so negative, but I hate being played for a fool. I'd love for this vehicle to hit the market fast and cheap, but I suspect it will be slow and expensive or more likely not at all. Like Dyson's electric car - not as simple as he thought, was it?

  26. #259
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by CanAmSteve View Post
    How many million vehicles has Ineos made that they are going to beat the already established (and already in deep trouble) competitors?
    I'm no billionaire and like some have stated the chap is a billionaire therefore he has a clue about business and making money.

    I think it's all about product differentiation. He's not bringing another Prado or range rover. May be there is millions niche buyers waiting for a luxurious hardcore old defender replacement..that looks like old defender

  27. #260
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    Default Re: Ineos Grenadier revealed!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JBX View Post
    Land Rover has really missed their market with the new Defender. (and Disco 5 for that matter). Unless they decided they are moving all their products "upmarket" and dont care about the traditional Defender owner. They may be repositioning the products and company completely. Profitability may dictate and rule the roost.
    True, although they've started that repositioning process long, long ago already. Some people just chose to ignore the progressive change and now it's to much to cope with in one go. I promise you LR is not the charity business and would need to stay relevant in the 21st century.
    Disclaimer - All my posts on this forum is without prejudice, is based on my fair assumptions or perceptions, is in no way intended to cause harm to anyone and is acted upon at your own discretion.

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