Solar System for Home ( yet another :) - Page 13





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  1. #241
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by bigboy529 View Post
    I wonder if he'll ever get smaller cells as well. I have a future project for which I need 12V batteries around 30 to 50 Ah.
    Jy kry kleiner ook ja. Jy kry in alle soorte sizes. Jy kry tot 2000ah plus selle ook.

    Een van die local groot lithium bouers in Suid Africa, Solar MD gebruik 80ah Lifepo4 sells in hulle units. Ek was vorige week by hulle. Die eienaar het my oor genooi om te kom in loer en te kyk hoe hulle Solar MD battery bou en toets setups en hulle hele setup werk. Baie nice gewees.

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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerlach View Post
    Jy kry kleiner ook ja. Jy kry in alle soorte sizes. Jy kry tot 2000ah plus selle ook.

    Een van die local groot lithium bouers in Suid Africa, Solar MD gebruik 80ah Lifepo4 sells in hulle units. Ek was vorige week by hulle. Die eienaar het my oor genooi om te kom in loer en te kyk hoe hulle Solar MD battery bou en toets setups en hulle hele setup werk. Baie nice gewees.


    Websites asb? Al DIY ouens van wie ek weet is lithiumbatteriessa en hulle het net 120 Ah selle so ver ek nog altyd kon sien, ek weet nie of hulle van tyd tot tyd stock van iets anders ook kry.
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  3. #243
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Ek het ook by lithiumbatteriessa gekoop, Bigboy. Soos Wims gesÍ het as jy die optelsom maak dan is dit veel beter waarde om die klaargeboude eenheid te koop. TTT het my gehelp met die som, en ek dink dit was omtrent R3.4K duurder.

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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBoy View Post
    Had a long chat to TTT, really knowledgeable on the various systems with great advise!
    Now the only real question is batteries, to go with bought-out LoFePO4 banks or to build my own...
    This thread gave me the motivation to seriously look into going solar and grid-tied.
    Just to clear up a point I have been thinking about. So much is said about grid tied. This the Multiplus cannot do on it's own without some other hardware.

    Question- Is the Multiplus a grid tied inverter - NO/YES!!!!
    Yes it can work with the Fronius but but that can set you back over R33 000. It is a battery assisted unit. It draws from the battery to supplement the grid and can even feed into the grid from solar or batteries. Have a look at any documentation from Victron and it will always show a battery present. Even the specs show no AC output to tie into the grid other than from PV or the batteries. Also the unit has no MPPT and it needs to be added to the core unit.

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    Summary of the Multiplus II from Victron web site:
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    Last edited by ekkekan; 2020/06/30 at 12:03 PM.

  5. #245
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    Yes it can work with the Fronius but that can set you back over R33 000.
    It is a battery assisted unit.
    ... Have a look at any documentation from Victron and it will always show a battery present.
    ... Also the unit has no MPPT and it needs to be added to the core unit.
    Fronius is a grid tie inverter, no batteries needed.
    So you can use a Fronius instead of a MPPT if you want.
    ABB grid tied inverters can also integrate with Victron systems, instead of a MPPT.
    You can use a Fronius / ABB and add MPPT's too, if you need.

    But that is beyond the scope of this chat.

    Pure info:
    https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ac_coupling:fronius

    https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ac_coupling:start

    https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ccgx:abb


    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    It draws from the battery to supplement the grid and can even feed into the grid from solar or batteries.
    All Victron inverters need batteries. Same as all Axperts.


    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    This the Multiplus cannot do on it's own without some other hardware.
    Question- Is the Multiplus a grid tied inverter - NO/YES!!!!
    Also the unit has no MPPT and it needs to be added to the core unit.
    You can decide:
    1) Use a Victron inverter as normal UPS? (Not the Phoenix ranges, no AC chargers built in.)
    2) As a off-grid inverter with a MPPT?
    3) As a grid tied inverter with a MPPT/Fronius/ABB?
    You can start with a simple UPS setup, ending up being fully grid tied, not feeding back. Simply add the components as you expand, or not.

    The setting, to be or not to be grid tied, and for which countries requirements, are set on the inverter itself, as posted before.
    That setting is definitely on the Multiplus II, MPII GX etc, and on Multiplus / Quattro I recall.
    Only the MPII MPII GX is SA NRS certified, as it needed more parts added for NRS requirements.
    SA did not accept a Ziehl in combination with a Multiplus / Quattro's, when grid tied. No-one knows why not.

    I will ask what will happen, if it is setup as say a plain UPS, and one activates the grid tied setting, as then there is nothing to throttle the feedback, if it will feed back.
    Why one would want to do that, that is another question.
    Last edited by the_terrible_triplett; 2020/06/30 at 01:04 PM.
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  6. #246
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by bigboy529 View Post
    Websites asb? Al DIY ouens van wie ek weet is lithiumbatteriessa en hulle het net 120 Ah selle so ver ek nog altyd kon sien, ek weet nie of hulle van tyd tot tyd stock van iets anders ook kry.
    Daar is so handjie vol maar jy gaan deur jou nek betaal. Hulle rook n mens die wat verkoop. Sinitech het 80ah maar die goed het so lank gestaan dat hulle af gegaan het. Ek weet van ouens wat gekoop het op die clearout en van hulle werk nie. Daar is post op n ander forum oor dit.

    En ou in die kaap verkoop 100ah en wil R1800 n sell he. Bietjie over price. Jy kan by Bain hoor of hy kleiner kan in bring met sy shipment. Julle moet hom kontak.

  7. #247
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post
    Fronius is a grid tie inverter, no batteries needed.
    So you can use a Fronius instead of a MPPT if you want.
    ABB grid tied inverters can also integrate with Victron systems, instead of a MPPT.
    You can use a Fronius / ABB and add MPPT's too, if you need.


    You can decide:
    1) Use a Victron inverter as normal UPS? (Not the Phoenix ranges, no AC chargers built in.)
    2) As a off-grid inverter with a MPPT?
    3) As a grid tied inverter with a MPPT/Fronius/ABB?
    You can start with a simple UPS setup, ending up being fully grid tied, not feeding back. Simply add the components as you expand, or not.

    The setting, to be or not to be grid tied, and for which countries requirements, are set on the inverter itself, as posted before.


    I will ask what will happen, if it is setup as say a plain UPS, and one activates the grid tied setting, as then there is nothing to throttle the feedback, if it will feed back.
    Why one would want to do that, that is another question.
    Well the rules state that you have to prevent feeding back. As you have mentioned a number of times unless you go bi-directional metering which very few will do due to the daily feed in rate.

    Yes it is a great starting point but to do grid tied you need compatible grid tied inverters like the Fronius and ABB. Some settings are not compatible between the Victron and Fronius where one must use the Victron approved hardware. Great to be able to expand but one can get a complete hydrid system for the price of a Fronius.

    You must have seen that as long as the batteries are large enough you can use the AC from the Victron as the grid for the Fronius. The factor of 1:1 is mentioned as the power from the grid tied must be able to go somewhere. With this in mind and the rules the Victron will not be able to export so the whole system will not feed back and become a danger for humans working on the grid supply side.

    Victron did sell grid tied inverters up to about 2014 but the opposition just became too cheap for them to match and they focussed on the current direction taken.

  8. #248
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by plcomp View Post
    Ek het ook by lithiumbatteriessa gekoop, Bigboy. Soos Wims gesÍ het as jy die optelsom maak dan is dit veel beter waarde om die klaargeboude eenheid te koop. TTT het my gehelp met die som, en ek dink dit was omtrent R3.4K duurder.
    Dit hang af hoe goed jou DIY skills is. Ek het heel goedkoop weg gekom met my eie. 16 selle het my R15500 met courier gekos. Bms my R1300 "my 2de bms het my R2000 gekos met courier diens nou om dir vinnig te kry". Enclosure my R1250. Plastiek enclosure vir skerm R120. Angle iron 6m lengte om die raam te bou om die batterye by mekaar te hou R72 en dan het ek oor vir iets anderste. Gland nuts als so saam R25. Werk net so oor die R18267. Dan is dit die 120ah second life wat nog tot 140ah kan charge dan.

    Ek het gister aand my 2de unit aan mekaar gesit en op gestart.

  9. #249
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    So those 48V banks of lithium batteries have their own bms integrated, what happens when you parallel two banks does the two bms interfere with each other or not. If you do a DIY bank with two sets of 48V can you use one bms or do you also need to use two?
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  10. #250
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by whatyamacallit View Post
    So those 48V banks of lithium batteries have their own bms integrated, what happens when you parallel two banks does the two bms interfere with each other or not. If you do a DIY bank with two sets of 48V can you use one bms or do you also need to use two?
    Jip. They have there own BMS yes. Yes, you can parrellel them, no they don't communicate with each other. So long they are fully charge and are on the same volts level. Then they can work.

    When you start stacking units un serie, then it becomes a problem because then the bms don't now what the one next to him is doing. I know of 3 guys that bought this 200ah 12v lithium batteries and connect them in serie to make 48v. Month later, nothing ia working because the batteryes don't balance out.

    With a 48v system, die bms is ballancing the cells out and went conneting the 2 48v units in parallel the units levels out the volts between them.

    Same with pylontech. When adding new unit to a old units then the units levels out the volts between them each other to bring them all on the same level.

    On your other question, if you running say 16 series and 2 parellel setup "16s2p", then you can use one BMS. But if running a split setup where the 16 sells is on there own and the other 16 sells on there own, then you cant split the bms.

    Only bms where you can add more stuff is the Batrem BMS and Smart123 bms. Every batterye got it's own balancer unit that connects to the one next to it and then it's controlled by a central brain unit that worlks out all the stuff.

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  12. #251
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post
    I will ask what will happen, if it is setup as say a plain UPS, and one activates the grid tied setting, as then there is nothing to throttle the feedback, if it will feed back.
    If one uses the inverter as say a UPS, and you switch on the grid-tie segment, it will do the relay and the bonding tests, but it will not feed back.
    So they come out with grid-tie potential.

    If you add a MPPT, then it will feed back if enabled.
    If you want to limit that feedback AND use the power sources optimally to save even more, then you need the free ESS software AND it also can stop feed back.
    For that you need a Venus.


    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    Yes it is a great starting point but to do grid tied you need compatible grid tied inverters like the Fronius and ABB.
    Instead of a Fronius, ABB grid tie inverter, just get a MPPT and a Venus and go grid tied.


    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    Victron did sell grid tied inverters up to about 2014 but the opposition just became too cheap for them to match and they focussed on the current direction taken.
    Maybe I missed that, them selling a grid tied inverter. As I said, the Multi's all have the software to grid tie. To use that, you need a Venus and a MPPT.

    Saw this recently on their website, nogal a 450/80 MPPT built in, for off-grid use:
    https://www.victronenergy.com/invert...0smart%20solar

    Watch, next move they will up the 250v MPPT's maybe to 450v ... lets see where it all goes.
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  13. #252
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Data from a SolarMD LiFePO4 battery. I have 2 in parallel. Click image for larger version. 

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  14. #253
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by LdLL View Post
    Data from a SolarMD LiFePO4 battery. I have 2 in parallel. Click image for larger version. 

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    Nice. Love there interface. I was standing watching why there busy testing the software on one unit at Solar MD.

    Here is my interface for my 2 140ah units in parallel.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  15. #254
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post
    So they come out with grid-tie potential.

    If you add a MPPT, then it will feed back if enabled. "This means to add a ABB or Fronius inverter for grid tied."
    If you want to limit that feedback AND use the power sources optimally to save even more, then you need the free ESS software AND it also can stop feed back.
    For that you need a Venus.
    I think we have a different understanding of grid tied. By definition we have a grid tied inverter as follows.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The way I understand the Victron Multiplus can export from solar and batteries and that alone does not satisfy being a grid tied system. Export is not what we want to achieve. We want to reduce the power used from the grid.

    Further from the bit that I understand a grid tied inverter would have as part of it's specs a section that indicates what AC power can be generated - not exported. This is missing on the Multiplus.
    AC output from different grids tied inverters.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    You won't find the above section on the Victron Multiplus II.

    Based on this video one can achieve grid tied saving as well as back up during LS and also cycle. This is within the rules as no panels are connected to the Axpert that is connected to the DB.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    This option is currently available for below R15 000 without panels and batteries. 4kW Solis grid tied and 5kW Axpert.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6DVS8lLgjw

    This is only to consider as an alternative complete system based on the subject of this post.
    Last edited by ekkekan; 2020/06/30 at 07:27 PM.

  16. #255
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Ps. I found the old Bluesolar Grid inverter, long gone.

    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    I think we have a different understanding of grid tied. By definition we have a grid tied inverter as follows.

    We want to reduce the power used from the grid.
    Victron systems allows for time shifting power, charging from solar, providing grid support, and exporting power back to the grid.
    When an ESS system is able to produce more power than it can use and store, it can sell the surplus to the grid; and when it has insufficient energy or power, it automatically buys it from from the grid.


    Meaning that IF the law changes and I can be properly remunerated, I will feed back all the spare power the Victron system can generate back into the grid, whilst the house is fed by the same inverter, after having recharged the batteries from last nights use.

    Please read this: https://www.victronenergy.com/live/e...llation-manual
    Note the graph.

    Hybrid grid tied being the correct term to use here.


    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    This option is currently available for below R15 000 without panels and batteries. 4kW Solis grid tied and 5kW Axpert.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6DVS8lLgjw
    This is only to consider as an alternative complete system based on the subject of this post. .
    How can you compare off-grid Axpert with a hybrid grid tied inverter like a GoodWE?
    Compare GoodWE with Victron, yes, then we can talk.
    But PLEASE no comparisons with an Axpert ... (Unless you want to go off-grid.)
    Last edited by the_terrible_triplett; 2020/06/30 at 08:18 PM.
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  17. #256
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post

    Meaning that IF the law changes and I can be properly remunerated, I will feed back all the spare power the Victron system can generate back into the grid, whilst the house is fed by the same inverter, after having recharged the batteries from last nights use.

    How can you compare off-grid Axpert with a hybrid grid tied inverter like a GoodWE?
    Compare GoodWE with Victron, yes, then we can talk.
    But PLEASE no comparisons with an Axpert ... (Unless you want to go off-grid.)
    The comparison is with a Solis 4kW grid tied plus the 5kW Axpert as per the video which puts you nearly in the same position as a Goodwe. At least Fluffy does agree with this combination as well. May be you don't see the Solis as an on line inverter?? The video clearly shows the Axpert not in an off grid configuration as you imply. I would think that the block in the upper left corner is a grid power meter as per the picture of my previous post.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    One aspect of uttermost importance in defining wether a system is grid tied is the compliance to regional safety codes and electrical standards specifically; the islanding operation, active / reactive power contraints, faults and protections, tolerances, etc

    As set about by Nersa approved Grid Connection Code for Small Renewable Power Plants connected to the Electricity Transmission System as per the Electricity Regulation Act (Act 4 2006)

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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by rnieckau View Post
    One aspect of uttermost importance in defining whether a system is grid tied is the compliance to regional safety codes and electrical standards specifically; the islanding operation, active / reactive power constraints, faults and protections, tolerances, etc

    As set about by Nersa approved Grid Connection Code for Small Renewable Power Plants connected to the Electricity Transmission System as per the Electricity Regulation Act (Act 4 2006)
    Here the NRS list of approved inverters, compliments of CoCT: Approved inverter and equipment ito NRS 097-2-1 (2020 04 22)
    Used to be 8+ pages long ...


    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    The comparison is with a Solis 4kW grid tied plus the 5kW Axpert as per the video which puts you nearly in the same position as a Goodwe. At least Fluffy does agree with this combination as well. May be you don't see the Solis as an on line inverter?? The video clearly shows the Axpert not in an off grid configuration as you imply. I would think that the block in the upper left corner is a grid power meter as per the picture of my previous post.
    Ekkekan, we've discussed that before.
    If the Solis grid tie model is on the NRS list, with an Axpert and its batteries the UPS, will work yes.

    And as we also discussed, the difference between a hybrid grid tied system and a Solis grid tied inverter / Axpert UPS combination:

    If Eskom is off during the day: (as is required by law)

    1) The Solis will stop producing power from the panels, the loads at the time running off the Axperts batteries.
    2) Hybrid grid tied solutions, after severing from the grid, will keep on powering the loads using the panels, batteries only if / when needed.
    Last edited by the_terrible_triplett; 2020/06/30 at 09:17 PM.
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post

    Ekkekan, we've discussed that before.
    If the Solis grid tie model is on the NRS list, with an Axpert and its batteries the UPS, will work yes.

    And as we also discussed, the difference between a hybrid grid tied system and a Solis grid tied inverter / Axpert UPS combination:

    If Eskom is off during the day: (as is required by law)

    1) The Solis will stop producing power from the panels, the loads at the time running off the Axperts batteries.
    2) Hybrid grid tied solutions, after severing from the grid, will keep on powering the loads using the panels, batteries only if / when needed.
    Yes every Solis available is on the approved list. Single phase as well as 3 phase. Thanks for posting the list for those interested.

    AFAIK this configuration as well as the way FanieduP used his transfer switch are about the only ways to get a Axpert approved.

    We have now and again mentioned some ideas around the Solis. Cannot remember that we talked about this configuration. Thanks for pointing out the hybrid angle of the all in one inverters like the Goodwe, SMA Sunny Boy/Island and Solis RHI.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by ekkekan; 2020/06/30 at 11:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Models on the list is based on the sales potential in a country, for apparently it is very costly to get the NRS certification done by the Test Houses.

    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    Thanks for pointing out the hybrid angle of the all in one inverters like the Goodwe, SMA Sunny Boy/Island and Solis RHI.
    As I said, that list WAS 8+ pages long a couple of years ago, now < 4 full pages.

    So ALWAYS check the NRS list for the inverter one is interested in. "Assuming" a model is on the list, could be costly if a Munic decides to enforce SANS/NRS.

    Like take the 4 x SMA's models left on the NRS list, and see their Comments section:
    Inverter may only be used in plants according to Category A3: 100 kVA - 1MVA and for grid connection with an external customer MV/LV AC transformer.

    And apparently that LV AC transformer required is not cheap, as I was told last week.

    GoodWE and Solis have a lot of models on the list, but always doublecheck.
    Victron have only released very specific models that are SA NRS certified, may add more.
    And a few new options on that list since 2020 ...



    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    AFAIK this configuration as well as the way FanieduP used his transfer switch are about the only ways to get a Axpert approved.
    Agreed.

    So it boils down to a very simple yet complex cost calculation/ decision - IF one has frequent daytime Eskom failures:
    1) Solis and Axpert, yes it is cheaper than hybrid grid tied inverters BUT what would the extra batteries cost, and replacement, to power daytime loads during failures?
    2) Hybrid grid tied, smallest size of bank one could get away with seeing solar is still contributing towards the loads daytime?

    This "simple cost calculation / decision" is 100% individual based on i.e. frequency of daytime Eskom failures and IF one wants to power through these daytime failures on batteries not being solar assisted.

    And less we forget this titbit: Whatever batteries one bought:
    1) Would one use them to get a ROI out of them in their lifetime?
    2) Or would one let them die of old age in a UPS, being seldom used?

    Tough costly decisions to be made the moment batteries enter the mix.


    Way I look at it:
    Axpert, you want it, get it - www.powerforum.co.za your best port of call for any and all things Voltronic.
    Like Solis, with/without batteries, why not?
    Prefer GoodWE, go for it.
    Want Victron, Nike it. (Just do it)

    I shared my real life actual experiences here on this thread, actual loads, from being partially off-grid to grid tied.
    And I am aware of other makes, pricing etc.

    It would be nice if someone starts a Solis and a GoodWE thread and shares their real life experiences with the equipment they use, as I did here.
    Political Correctness
    Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional illogical minority, rabidly promoted by a unscrupulous mainstream media which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd ... by the clean end!

    Saw this in a pub - no idea why the wife does not see it so:
    I'm not opinionated ... I'm just always right!

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