Solar System for Home ( yet another :) - Page 11





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  1. #201
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    what it shorts between the solar panels and the batteries,
    O J!rre 'n short!

    If Eskom is "there" none matters because the Victron management system uses whatever comes from panels; batteries or Eskom in most economical manner?
    And if Eskom fails (which is imminent) then automatically panels/batteries takes over on 1st AC outlet - hence 2nd not needed?
    Last edited by plcomp; 2020/06/22 at 09:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by plcomp View Post
    o j!rre 'n short!;d
    Last edited by the_terrible_triplett; 2020/06/22 at 09:10 PM.
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    jislaaik jy's vinnig op die keybrd .. check asb was besig om te edit ...

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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by plcomp View Post
    O J!rre 'n short!

    If Eskom is "there" none matters because the Victron management system uses whatever comes from panels; batteries or Eskom in most economical manner?
    And if Eskom fails (which is imminent) then automatically panels/batteries takes over on 1st AC outlet - hence 2nd not needed?
    Spot on!!!
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post
    Here is a picture I made for you of the connections.
    In your picture the DC input goes to battery and inverter...

    Does the MPPT feed the battery directly and the battery the inverter, or does it feed both?

    I'm comparing to goodwe..mppt feed into inverter and battery charged by inverter..MPPT does not feed battery directly.

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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by NewLandy View Post
    In your picture the DC input goes to battery and inverter...

    Does the MPPT feed the battery directly and the battery the inverter, or does it feed both?

    I'm comparing to goodwe..mppt feed into inverter and battery charged by inverter..MPPT does not feed battery directly.
    MPPT can be directly connected on the batteries or, as I did, connected direct onto the same bolts as the battery connects inside the inverter.

    All of that is DC on the DC bus.

    GoodWE is exactly the same, DC on the one side, AC on the other side, the twain shall never meet, unless it is via clever electronics to make AC from DC or DC from AC.
    Last edited by the_terrible_triplett; 2020/06/22 at 09:26 PM.
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  9. #207
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    I think the comprehension problems I'm having came with exactly how the wiring is supposed to be done.

    The picture cleared everything up, I think.

    My confusion was with the fact that AC2 out dies when Eskom dies. That's all Victron states.

    I think, what Victron does not explicitly mention, is that it dies completely. In other words, there will be no current flowing there, neither from Eskom, nor from the batteries.

    Whereas in respect of AC1 out, when Eskom dies, that line will still be live but from the batteries and solar panels?

    And if I now understand correctly what your saying iro AC out2, I should merely regard it as a low output line (similar to the load connection on a solar charge regulator)? No one really uses it because of its low amp ability?

    So I need only pull 2 wires of at least 4, with 6 being better and with 10mm you never look back.

    Thanks a lot for clarifying!

    Also thanks to you Plcomp for confirming what was explained!

    I'm almost ready to start advising people on Victron systems.
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    TTT have you ever had a situation where you had to charge your batteries using the grid like a couple days with no sunshine and being caught with a low SOC?
    I guess in a situation like this you can also just leave the batteries at 30% or whatever for a couple days while waiting for the sun especially since it's lithium and then tell the Venus to leave them batteries alone?
    Last edited by bigboy529; 2020/06/23 at 09:57 AM.
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Die SwartKat View Post
    My confusion was with the fact that AC2 out dies when Eskom dies. That's all Victron states.

    I think, what Victron does not explicitly mention, is that it dies completely. In other words, there will be no current flowing there, neither from Eskom, nor from the batteries.

    Whereas in respect of AC1 out, when Eskom dies, that line will still be live but from the batteries and solar panels?
    AC_out2 dies ... it dies completely dead, like a door nail, no current flowing there at all, neither from Eskom (it is dead) ... and then the titbit ... nothing from batts nor panels either - AC_out2 is just dead - spot on!

    Because AC_out1 - feeding that 2nd DB, the "Always On DB", powered first from solar then batteries, or from both, or just batteries at night WHEN Eskom is off.
    And IF Eskom is on, relax, sit back, as none matters because the Victron ESS management software uses whatever comes from panels; batteries or Eskom, merging it all in the most economical manner, all using just AC_out1 and AC_in1.

    What I learnt here, caveat was in the wiring ... that the power does not go from main DB to inverter, one way, no, but both ways i.e. where the power is needed.
    That seems to have been the "penny drop" moment too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Die SwartKat View Post
    And if I now understand correctly what your saying iro AC out2, I should merely regard it as a low output line (similar to the load connection on a solar charge regulator)? No one really uses it because of its low amp ability?
    Nope, it is a full-on output, amps are fine, you just don't want to be bothered, at all, when you've gone grid tied, that it all switches off due to a inverter overload because you are using AC_out2. Let Eskom handle the big loads.
    As simple as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Die SwartKat View Post
    So I need only pull 2 wires of at least 4, with 6 being better and with 10mm you never look back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Die SwartKat View Post
    The picture cleared everything up, I think.

    I'm almost ready to start advising people on Victron systems.
    YES!!! There we go!
    Last edited by the_terrible_triplett; 2020/06/23 at 02:08 PM.
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by bigboy529 View Post
    TTT have you ever had a situation where you had to charge your batteries using the grid like a couple days with no sunshine and being caught with a low SOC?
    I guess in a situation like this you can also just leave the batteries at 30% or whatever for a couple days while waiting for the sun especially since it's lithium and then tell the Venus to leave them batteries alone?
    O yes ... a few times.

    What transpires:
    Eskom failures start, evening, so you use the batts.
    Tomorrow morning, round 2 for 2-3 hours, afternoon again 2-3 hours.
    And then, off-course, there is a week of stormy weather at the same time ... off course, how else does it work!?

    Solution:
    During these times, I set the VenusGX ESS software to keep the batteries fully charged i.e. don't use them at all unless Eskom goes off.
    All the solar power, the few watts you do get due to the storm, still goes to the house.
    And between the few solar watts and Eskom, when it is on, the batts are re-charged constantly and automatically, back to 100%, or as high as it can get before the next loadshed.
    Easy as that.

    Once the cycle is gone, set the SOC again of what you want to use from the batts, and forget about it.


    New info I can now add:
    On lead acid, depending on the frequency of the outages and the DOD, you can get to a point where they are never fully recharge, as it take hours to recharge a 50% DOD bank.
    On lithium, 50% DOD, just over an hour ... huge Eskom watts sent to the batts and the absorb them pretty quick, SOC back to 100%. Sorted.


    Titbit: On a good make solar lead acid battery, say like Trojans, you don't have to recharge each and every day to 100% SOC.
    All you need is to at least get to a 100% SOC once every 7 days - it is ok under duress to do that.

    But that titbit does not apply to those "deep(sic) cycle leisure" UPS 105ah Royal type batteries. They take too much strain.
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  14. #211
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Thanks TTT I learnt so much and done plenty reading even done a bit of costing to see what I need to get started.

    Please could I see how you did your combiner box and what is needed to make one up. Also I have a weird roof so Im wondering if its better to have 3 or 4 smaller MPPT's(150/35) and run each section to its own MPPT or to get the big 250/100 MPPT and combine the arrays so that they meet the voltage and watt limits, but then Im not sure if combining a east / west and north facing string is a good idea. If I went smaller MPPT's first could add arrays on as finances allow but how would you connect so many to the venus, or would i need the usb expander?
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by whatyamacallit View Post
    Thanks TTT I learnt so much and done plenty reading even done a bit of costing to see what I need to get started.

    Please could I see how you did your combiner box and what is needed to make one up. Also I have a weird roof so Im wondering if its better to have 3 or 4 smaller MPPT's(150/35) and run each section to its own MPPT or to get the big 250/100 MPPT and combine the arrays so that they meet the voltage and watt limits, but then Im not sure if combining a east / west and north facing string is a good idea. If I went smaller MPPT's first could add arrays on as finances allow but how would you connect so many to the venus, or would i need the usb expander?
    Only a pleasure whatyamacallit. If more people "get" why grid-tied is so cool, my job is done!
    And if they can do it within SANS and NRS regulations, even better. That is sticking it to Eskom. My little revolution see.
    When I'm Pressi ...

    250/100's are the cost of a kidney, but dang, in my case, with my 350w panels (T&C apply), I can go to 7kw ... so worth it!

    Titbit on the 250/100's - and others: I've said before go for BIG panels, cheaper per watt and less costs ito mounting.

    Want to refine that:
    Match bigger wattage panels to the MPPT to see how you can get to the absolute max of the MPPT, without straining it, ito keep away from the max volts (100v or 250v) and nowhere close to the short circuit amps.
    See, each MPPT has a "best sized" panel to connect to it, to reach ones goal the best.



    Right, your question:
    If you have multiples facing arrays, you CAN put them on one MPPT BUT the overall potential power out of the MPPT will be reduced as the MPPT tries to find the best "power band" over the different facing arrays - i.e. you will not easily see full production.

    So yes, it is much better to put a couple of smaller MPPT's in, matched to their arrays, so that you will always get the optimal power out of each different facing array.


    Here is my combiner box, not the cheapest one at all, I just got gatvol:
    Now I can double up ito panels in series. Can switch each string off, or all of them off.
    And because I can switch them all off, I can switch one by one on to test each string with ease - as over the lifespan of the system, I don't want to climb onto the 2nd story roof unless must - and must I do do.
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Here is the website: https://mppt.victronenergy.com/?locale=en

    Note: I'm NOT saying do this
    , but this is a way to see what panels fits the MPPT you want to buy, best.

    Flip that: What are the watts you want from the panels, then match the watts with the MPPT by using the best sized panels for the MPPT.

    Using Canadian 350w Kumax panels, on a 250/100, according to Victron's calculator, I could do this ... I'm NOT saying DO this ... as you are pushing all the limits.

    Illustration:
    1) Those values are VERY NB to fill in. Very.
    2) Be very sure you never go, as in this case, ever below 0C - panels must never be below that.
    3) I could, NOT saying do this, get this theoretically.

    Post is made to illustrate the matching panels with MPPT's.
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    Last edited by the_terrible_triplett; 2020/06/23 at 03:37 PM.
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  18. #214
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    So are all your panels in the same orientation?
    Are those DC breakers or isolators. What brand and size are they?
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Continuing the illustration.

    Using the Victron Excel calc, I get these warnings:
    1. One is warning me I'm exceeding 30% oversizing.
    2. The 2nd one says NOT accepted, PV current higher than MPPT max.


    And less we forget, volts are at 249.9v - 0.1v below the max of 250v ... if the panels go below 0, and the sun comes out all nice and shiny ... it probably will blow the MPPT ...

    So that is how you oversize with Victron ... and how you don't do it ... when you want to push the limits.

    And if you are the cautious personality, who want things to last really long, then the ideal is to keep the MPPT working at max 80% of it's capabilities, nice, sound and safe ... even if it is so boring!
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post
    MPPT can be directly connected on the batteries or, as I did, connected direct onto the same bolts as the battery connects inside the inverter.

    All of that is DC on the DC bus.
    Same here, much easier connected on Inverter
    Last edited by Prof; 2020/06/23 at 04:18 PM.
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    And then the real life scenario ...

    Now the question may come, how can I push to 7kw with 249.9v?
    Canadian Kumax 350w panels Open Circuit Voltage (Voc) is 46.6 V so 2 in series is max 93.2v - some use the Voc to work out the max volts.
    But the V and I temp coefficients are not taken into consideration - therein the rub, the 249.9v Victron calculates.

    So how do I sort it:
    Using 6 months worth of data, 2 series 5 parallel = 87.5v and not 93.2v the max the panels can do, with actual temps.

    So if I go from 2 Series (87.5v) to 5 Series I should get 218.75v max based on the wires, temps, angle and not the 249.9v under perfect conditions.
    But I dare not go 6 series = I WILL get 262.5v in real life.

    And that is how one does it, how I do it, with real live data, 1 years worth, ideally.
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  24. #218
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by whatyamacallit View Post
    So are all your panels in the same orientation?
    Are those DC breakers or isolators. What brand and size are they?
    My panels, yes, all facing one way, fixed pitch as you can see, and wee bit west of north - with loads of space for more.

    The DC breakers are double pole NoARk 16amp breakers from Rubicon.


    Titbit1:
    Panel Short Circuit Current (Isc) is 9.51 A per panel.
    So per string, even with 5 panels in series, I have max 9.51amps, well within the NoArk breakers 16amps.


    Titibit2: Sometimes it is cheaper to get a couple more panels, than the cost of getting them perfectly mounted and aligned.
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    Last edited by the_terrible_triplett; 2020/06/23 at 07:59 PM.
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Die SwartKat View Post
    I think the comprehension problems I'm having came with exactly how the wiring is supposed to be done.

    The picture cleared everything up, I think.

    My confusion was with the fact that AC2 out dies when Eskom dies. That's all Victron states.

    I think, what Victron does not explicitly mention, is that it dies completely. In other words, there will be no current flowing there, neither from Eskom, nor from the batteries.

    Whereas in respect of AC1 out, when Eskom dies, that line will still be live but from the batteries and solar panels?

    And if I now understand correctly what your saying iro AC out2, I should merely regard it as a low output line (similar to the load connection on a solar charge regulator)? No one really uses it because of its low amp ability?

    So I need only pull 2 wires of at least 4, with 6 being better and with 10mm you never look back.

    Thanks a lot for clarifying!

    Also thanks to you Plcomp for confirming what was explained!

    I'm almost ready to start advising people on Victron systems.
    Try Voltron in Silverton for cable prices. I get all my cabling from them...up to 10mm2 surfix.

    http://voltrontrading.co.za/

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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by LdLL View Post
    Try Voltron in Silverton for cable prices. I get all my cabling from them...up to 10mm2 surfix.

    http://voltrontrading.co.za/
    Thanks, will try them.

    I usually go to ElectraHertz in Silverton, but I don't think they're the cheapest.
    Last edited by Die SwartKat; 2020/06/23 at 06:58 PM.
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