Solar System for Home ( yet another :) - Page 6





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  1. #101
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post


    A interesting debate Gerlach and I had was about keeping the cells tightly together or slightly apart.
    Being apart allows for better ventilation and lower overall bank temperature.
    Wouldn't a say 3mm double sided tape between cells aid reducing the temp for those cells in series - 16 in your case??

  2. #102
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    Wouldn't a say 3mm double sided tape between cells aid reducing the temp for those cells in series - 16 in your case??
    Could work yes.
    Because I have the original portable cabinet, I have loads of space.
    Can simply zig zag them as is so that they have space between each other. Currently the temp is <25deg C. So it is not an issue.

    Ideally I should have bought longer connectors between the batts that they are properly spaced ... but that is a WANT now.
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  3. #103
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    Wouldn't a say 3mm double sided tape between cells aid reducing the temp for those cells in series - 16 in your case??
    Jip, it can work. Or some of that sealant door tape. You still need to strap ot tape them together so that you don't twist or damage the inside of the polls when you want to move the pack. The batteries do expand and contract so iets something you need to keep a eye on. You will see some of the jumpers got like a bridge/bump to help with expanding. Something that pops up on a lot of blog's and forums is the strapping part. GWL is a nice page to follow. They do alot of in-house testing and design some really nice stuff.

    You actually get sells that is inside a frame/holder that helps binding the batteries together. I even spot on site where you can buy the loos cage/frame to put your own lifepo4 batteries in.

    The one with blue cage/frame is solar MD ones they using in there builds.

    I got 4 temp units that my bms is using, and i can add 2 more. 2 is reading the bms inside, one is reading the temp inside the enclosure and the other temp is reading the temp on the bus bar. Still need to add to the batteries but so far reading with my Multimeter temp unit the batteries is all cooled.
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  4. #104
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    I understand how you say that the 3kw inverter covers most of your loads especially if you have bulk items on timers such as the geyser. I'm wondering how you get around randoms loads being put on by accident.

    Example some one puts kettle on while the geyser is heating and maid switches on iron. I see that the Multi II 5kw has a peak of 9Kw but for how long? what happens in the above case, does the inverter just trip?

    I also see the multi has two ac outputs does it still feed solar to both outputs and then drop the one during grid failure?
    Last edited by whatyamacallit; 2020/06/17 at 12:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    If my understanding is correct, WY, this is only an issue with an off-grid system. In grid-tied (as I understand) Eskom takes care of that.
    Last edited by plcomp; 2020/06/17 at 01:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Good questions!!!
    What PLComp said.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatyamacallit View Post
    I'm wondering how you get around randoms loads being put on by accident.

    Example some one puts kettle on while the geyser is heating and maid switches on iron. I see that the Multi II 5kw has a peak of 9Kw but for how long? what happens in the above case, does the inverter just trip?
    It makes no difference, those few minutes for like a kettle, Microwave, ito costs. Cents on the rand.
    And BECAUSE being grid tied, the additional power comes, as follows, from:
    1) Batteries first - assuming the min SOC that you have set, has not been reached, as batts are instant power.
    2) Panels second - assuming they are not already at full power, as they take a second or so to catch up to not drain the batts IF there is enough power.
    3) The power then comes from Eskom ...

    Because the inverter, being grid tied, does not need to deal with those peaks at all. They go straight to Eskom once the other sources have been asked for some spare power.

    Reason being the ESS software on the VenusGX handles the entire transaction, to use power optimally at all times.
    And being grid tied, the inverter, at 25C, is hard set at a max of 4000w.
    Off-grid or when there is a power failure, the inverter standard settings comes back into play, grid-tied settings are ignored.

    However, IF it was off-grid, THEN the MPII 5kva , if there is enough array / battery amps, will deliver a max of 9000w peak for a quick moment easily ... if there is enough array / battery amps available.


    Quote Originally Posted by whatyamacallit View Post
    I also see the multi has two ac outputs does it still feed solar to both outputs and then drop the one during grid failure?
    Yes, it has two AC Outputs - AC_Out1 and AC_Out2.
    Two options:
    Option 1: Connect all critical always on loads on AC_Out1 and rest of the house on AC_Out2.
    Caveat: This effectively means that your entire house goes via the inverter. Why? You are going to hit the 9000w peaks.

    Option 2: Connect all critical always on loads on AC_Out1 and nothing on AC_Out2.
    Caveats: Main DB is nowhere near the inverter ito large draws.
    1) Inverter does not know what the entire load is, so you now have to use the current sensor, or it will feed all spare power back.
    2) The current sensor gives no data ... that is why it is a good idea to install a Carlo Gavazzi ET112 just after the main breaker on the main DB.

    Using a Carlo you not only now have all the AC data you will ever need on the entire DB, the inverter can also see what goes on ito not to feed any power back ... unless you tell it to.
    Last edited by the_terrible_triplett; 2020/06/17 at 02:08 PM.
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  8. #107
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Check this nice setup they busy building in Czech
    Republic for a sustainable house. They using solar roof tiles for the house to.
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  9. #108
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    TTT and Gerlach, how do you control the temperature environment of your equipment, especially your lithium batteries in winter?
    Obviously SA isn't as cold as some European countries, but for that week or 2 per year like we currently have and then also December, January heat.
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by bigboy529 View Post
    TTT and Gerlach, how do you control the temperature environment of your equipment, especially your lithium batteries in winter?
    Obviously SA isn't as cold as some European countries, but for that week or 2 per year like we currently have and then also December, January heat.
    Easy:
    Summer pour some water over them to cool them down.
    Winter just put a heater with them in the enclosure.


    No seriously. Lithiums do not have to be in the garage as lead acid have to be, or worse, ventilated like Trojans ... so inside temps are quite acceptable.
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post
    It makes no difference, those few minutes for like a kettle, Microwave, ito costs. Cents on the rand.
    And BECAUSE being grid tied, the additional power comes, as follows, from:
    1) Batteries first - assuming the min SOC that you have set, has not been reached, as batts are instant power.
    2) Panels second - assuming they are not already at full power, as they take a second or so to catch up to not drain the batts IF there is enough power.
    3) The power then comes from Eskom ...
    This sort of answers my question but I have another. You said you ran your geyser off solar with a 2kw element, so if your geyser is timed to go at 11am and someone switches the kettle on it could be enough to trip your 3kw inverter right, so don't you need from the beginning nothing less than 5kw inverter, or does the inverter bypass the power to come straight from eskom and not count toward its power output.

    Sorry if im just not getting it.

    In my head it just makes more sense connecting the entire house to the inverter and then putting timers on geyser/washing machine/dishwasher ect that way you would use mostly solar, or have i got it wrong!!
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  12. #111
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by whatyamacallit View Post
    You said you ran your geyser off solar with a 2kw element, so if your geyser is timed to go at 11am and someone switches the kettle on it could be enough to trip your 3kw inverter right, so don't you need from the beginning nothing less than 5kw inverter, or does the inverter bypass the power to come straight from eskom and not count toward its power output.
    Let me explain it this way around.

    Geyser is on, 2kw.
    I switch on the kettle 2kw, microwave 2kw and stove 4k
    Total draw: 10kw for a few minutes.

    The Carlo Gavazzi reports to the VenusGX that 10kw is being drawn from the grid.
    Inverter now tries to reduce that to zero draw, using panels and batts are previously explained.

    BUT .. it can only supply 2.4kw being 1) a 3kva and 2) 2.4kw being the max it will give being grid tied.

    So the 10kw draw from Eskom drops by 2.4kw to 7.6kw from Eskom.

    Inverter never sees the spikes.

    Versus, the exact same scenario, the 10kw draw on a 3kva inverter powering the entire house because you are using 1) AC_Out 1 and AC_Out 2 and/or being off-grid ... the inverter will promptly switch off, being overloaded, to protect itself.
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  14. #112
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Thanks for the explanation.

    So it's seems the Carlo gavazzi and Venus GX are quite critical pieces of equipment.
    Last edited by whatyamacallit; 2020/06/17 at 06:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by bigboy529 View Post
    TTT and Gerlach, how do you control the temperature environment of your equipment, especially your lithium batteries in winter?
    Obviously SA isn't as cold as some European countries, but for that week or 2 per year like we currently have and then also December, January heat.
    My inverter can handle some high temps before the fans kick in, so ver het ek nog nie gehoor in skop nie. Op die 38c dae nie.

    So far with the cold days i went to go check the temps via Bluetooth in battery enclosure via bms and its about between 15'c and 20'c. Summer was about between 25'c and 30'c. My setup close to garage door so there is ambient temp to control it.

    I added a pic of the temp in my inverter rite now. I click know i must run a temp probe from the inverter in to Lifepo4s enclosure so then i can check it via the inverter portal. I got a temp relay controller to tha i still want to use with a house swing fan than i want to mount on top of my setup just to help with airflow in the hot days.

    Some guys even go extreme by adding aircone unit's with there solar setup
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  16. #114
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Hierdie is 'n uitstekende draad; en TTT / Gerlach gaan uit hulle pad om selfs die mees oningeligde lede in te lig / te help.

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  18. #115
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by plcomp View Post
    Hierdie is 'n uitstekende draad; en TTT / Gerlach gaan uit hulle pad om selfs die mees oningeligde lede in te lig / te help.
    I agree thanks for explaining it.

    I now understand, did some more reading and the pic attached from the pdf shows nicely how it can feed loads that are not on its UPS output if it has the power meter installed. Haha now I see what you mean by using a small system to the full rather than over sizing and it idles.
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by whatyamacallit View Post
    Thanks for the explanation.

    So it's seems the Carlo gavazzi and Venus GX are quite critical pieces of equipment.
    O yes ... the VenusGX is the brains when you go grid-tied and/or want data to control it all.
    However, for the record: You can run a Victron system happily without the VenusGX/Carlo, just not grid tied, like in ever.


    Quote Originally Posted by plcomp View Post
    Hierdie is 'n uitstekende draad; en TTT / Gerlach gaan uit hulle pad om selfs die mees oningeligde lede in te lig / te help.
    Dis 'n groot plesier. Hou net aan vrae vra en ons antwoord met graagte.
    En ons praat nie tegniese terme, want ons ken dit ook nie.


    Here are my temps measured direct on the lithium bank, over 2 days. They are in an enclosure, in the "braai room" having a polycarbonate roof, so the temp variation is expected.

    Lowest temp of 18C very early mornings, 26C the afternoons.
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  20. #117
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by plcomp View Post
    Hierdie is 'n uitstekende draad; en TTT / Gerlach gaan uit hulle pad om selfs die mees oningeligde lede in te lig / te help.
    Bly ek en TTT kan uit help. Vir ons is dit lekker om te help. Voordeel van ons systems is dat ons kan verstel en verander en goed uithaal en by sit en data tussen mekaar deel om te sien wat mekaar se goed doen. Ek het nog volledige Microcare setup wat ek gehelp het by n vriend waar ons elke dag ook goed by add en verander en data check en wat die son maak en baie DIY. Daar wag nog n Microcare setup ook by iemand wat diy Lifepo4 gaan hardloop wat moet hand by gaan gee en nog n vriend met 10kw MLT setup wat om die draai van my bly wat ook diy lithium gaan. Sien uit na daai een wat hy gaan 160amp mppt setup hardloop, nog help daar klaar maak.

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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by whatyamacallit View Post
    I now understand, did some more reading and the pic attached from the pdf shows nicely how it can feed loads that are not on its UPS output if it has the power meter installed. Haha now I see what you mean by using a small system to the full rather than over sizing and it idles.
    Ditsim!!!

    The only caveat you must keep in mind going for a 3kva powering hours per day at 2.4kw, as I mentioned before, is the temp derating.
    If the inverter can be kept at 25C, or lower, at all times, you will get 2.4kw out of the 3kva continuously.

    That is why I went for the 5kva, as I am constantly at 2.5kw during the hottest times of the day.

    FYI: These limits kick in especially for grid-tied connections BECAUSE of the system being able to feed back all the spare power, the inverter will be running at peak output all day long. Therefor the hard coded limitations, to make the unit last longer.

    Look for this titbit in the red block on the brochure:
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    One thing I'm still struggling to get my head around is how to size a battery bank in a hybrid system after you got the inverter and PV array sorted.
    Too small and the inverter won't be happy plus you'll cycle too low every day or use to much grid, and trying to go too big will obviously cost a lot of money.
    So I guess a balance between not cycling too low every day while still keeping enough capacity for LS, but yet being able to fully charge the bank every day using PV?
    Menere vertel ons asb.
    Last edited by bigboy529; 2020/06/18 at 11:53 AM.
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    Default Re: Solar System for Home ( yet another :)

    Quote Originally Posted by bigboy529 View Post
    One thing I'm still struggling to get my head around is how to size a battery bank in a hybrid system after you got the inverter and PV array sorted.
    Too small and the inverter won't be happy plus you'll cycle too low every day or use to much grid, and trying to go too big will obviously cost a lot of money.
    So I guess a balance between not cycling too low every day while still keeping enough capacity for LS, but yet being able to fully charge the bank every day using PV?
    Menere vertel ons asb.
    Daar is n din lyn daar ja, maar dis waar die voordeel van Lithium/Lifepo4 in kom. TTT sal kan saam inspring hier. Met lead acids moet jy taamlik PV setup he as jy die batterye wil charge en loads hardloop. Lead acids vat langer im vol te raak bo langs. Dis waar die voordeel van Lithium/Lifepo4 in kom. Hulle charging rate is ongelooflik vinnig. Wens ek kan n video post hier om te wys hoe vinnig die amps in gaan om die AH op te bou.

    So voordeel is, kleiner solar array setup so jy bespaar daar. Voordeel van Lifepo4s ook kan jy baie dieper in cycle, tot 90%, waar lead acids n ander storie is. TTT sal meer daar kan gee. Ek proebeer nie onder 50% te gaan met my 7.2kw bank nie. Ek weet basies wat my avg gebruik in n aand is al. As my 2de bank aan die gang is na ek my 2de bms kry sal ek kyk hoe baie ek dan sal oor he in n aand se tyd en tot hoer ver ek sal kan gaan. Ek wil einde van die jaar 3de bank ook in sit. Dan weet ek is goed gecover. Ek gebruik so avg van tussen 60ah tot 70ah n aand, dis nou in die winter. Somer is dit minder, so tussen 45ah en 50ah.

    Ek en TTT het nou die dag uit werk, as jy byvoorbeeld moet 4 Pylontechs moet vat , die 3.5 units wat 3.2kw per unit gee, is dit basies 12.8kw en dit gaan jou so tussen R60k en R70k kos. Vir daai geld kan jy 4 pakke van 7.2kw diy Lifepo4s koop wat jou 28.8kw se krag gee. As jy bietjie jou game will op step kan jy kyk om n baie nice BMS ook in te bring wat die hele setup kam beheer. Met daai aantal stoor krag kan jy nogals ver kom sal ek se en jou paar jaar hou ook want dan cycle jy nie so diep in jou setup in nie.

    En die ander ding is, jy moet jou loads verspry ook, soos goed wat jy weet wat n klompie krag trek, daai hardloop jy deur die dag wanneer die son uit is, so dat die batterye reg is vir die aand om jou ander goed te doen wat nie konstant vir 10 tot 20min hoe krag gaan trek nie.

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