4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders - Page 2





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  1. #21
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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    Quote Originally Posted by grips View Post
    The Mil spec 6.2 normal aspirated in the HMMWV made 123kw and 447nm. I have studied this engine in depth. Were a candidate for the F250 I had.
    Regardless, there is no appreciable difference between the GM 6.2 V8 and the Isuzu 5.9 6BD1 when one considers the difference in cubic capacity, so your statement " I have yet to drive an engine that can duplicate the torque of a large capacity v8. Let it be diesel or petrol."

    I have demonstrated that it is possible. Please concede.
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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    The GM 6.5 and 6.2 were derivatives of the 5.7 Olds diesel, which in turn started life as a gas/petrol motor. They werent the finest examples of diesel motors, although the 6.5 was much better than the previous two.

    Torque and kilowatt aint determined by the number of silinders, but more by pistonstroke, compression and piston design.
    You can buildt a huge torque motor out of any design.
    I dont completely agree with Grips on V8 having such great torque. To me straight six motors reign supreme, merely because it easier to fit a nice long stroke into a straight six.

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  4. #23
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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    Regardless, there is no appreciable difference between the GM 6.2 V8 and the Isuzu 5.9 6BD1 when one considers the difference in cubic capacity, so your statement " I have yet to drive an engine that can duplicate the torque of a large capacity v8. Let it be diesel or petrol."

    I have demonstrated that it is possible. Please concede.
    Really not today. If you care to read careful what I have said you will see it is my own experience in person. That includes large trucks and equipment. I only quote you on the 6.2 GM because you used the lowest output of that specific engine.

    If it will please you take the win.
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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    Quote Originally Posted by grips View Post
    The more cylinders the better the torque will be for engines of the same capacity and design. Straight engines have the advantage of heavier rotating assembly which help them with low down grunt.

    But this type of subject were flogged to death on the forum.

    Think the v10 Touareg still is king in the 5.0l turbo diesel class with 850nm.
    There are too many factors that determine power to make a claim like that.

    I6 diesels usually make more torque than their V8 counterparts at equal RPM due to the nature of the design.

    I6 engines usually have a smaller bore to make the physical size of the engine shorter, then uses a longer stroke to gain capacity. Longer strokes have more torque low down.

    Not that is means anything, but the Audi 4.0 V8 TDI
    Makes 900nm, even the BMW inline 6 N57s 3.0 diesel makes 740nm, the most torque per displacement of any production diesel. Ironically, both still very far off turbo petrol engines in terms of torque per engine displacement.


    In short, you can design almost any number of cylinders to do almost anything, the cylinder count is not really a determining factor in engine characteristics, but more of a space and cost consideration.
    Last edited by Cyclone101; 2020/04/15 at 02:52 PM.

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  7. #25
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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    Quote Originally Posted by grips View Post
    Really not today. If you care to read careful what I have said you will see it is my own experience in person. That includes large trucks and equipment. I only quote you on the 6.2 GM because you used the lowest output of that specific engine.

    If it will please you take the win.
    I think I'll leave that to Mapog, Cyclone and Mullerza...................
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  8. #26
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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone101 View Post
    There are too many factors that determine power to make a claim like that.

    I6 diesels usually make more torque than their V8 counterparts at equal RPM due to the nature of the design.

    I6 engines usually have a smaller bore to make the physical size of the engine shorter, then uses a longer stroke to gain capacity. Longer strokes have more torque low down.

    Not that is means anything, but the Audi 4.0 V8 TDI
    Makes 900nm, even the BMW inline 6 N57s 3.0 diesel makes 740nm, the most torque per displacement of any production diesel. Ironically, both still very far off turbo petrol engines in terms of torque per engine displacement.


    In short, you can design almost any number of cylinders to do almost anything, the cylinder count is not really a determining factor in engine characteristics, but more of a space and cost consideration.
    You are right. I had effective piston pressure in mind. As you say there are so many factors.
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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    Quote Originally Posted by jelo View Post
    I think I'll leave that to Mapog, Cyclone and Mullerza...................
    I perfectly understand the working of engines if I did not I were not able to build 300kw stroker engines.

    I do understand all the power and torque formulas and calculations I have studied internal combustion engines till N6.

    I merrily stated my experience with engines specifically in 4x4 conditions.
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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    This is what I had in mind. Idling up a dune at a fun day. None of the 4 and 6 cylinders could idle up.
    Sometimes what you have experience of is difficult to understand by others. This were done at 700rpm.

    Last edited by grips; 2020/04/15 at 06:01 PM.
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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    The v8 Cruiser up Speelduin at Whoopha. Guys that were at Whoopa can tell you you need serious power to get up here.
    Cruiser is the only 4x4 we know of that were able to crawl Speelduin. Ask Ryno you need to moer a v6 Amarok to get up there.

    The GD6 2.8 and The v8 Cruiser have almost identical power and torque figures on paper. Taking tyre size and diff ratios in account their 4th gears match closely. You can pull away with the Cruiser in 4th with ease no way you can do that with the 4 cylinder GD6.

    I have a video taking off with the Little v8 Ranger in 4th without even slipping the clutch. That is what I sse as low down grunt.



    Last edited by grips; 2020/04/15 at 06:17 PM.
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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    Surely what you are describing is mostly a factor of displacement rather than engine configuration?

    Thing is, in cars one just doesn't see really large engines with fewer cylinders anymore. Anything over 5l typically has 8 or more cylinders.
    1996 Patrol 4.2SGL with lots of stuff to make it heavier and thus increase traction?

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  14. #31
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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    In the end it is the force created to push down the piston

    Better materials and new tech help to create higher effective piston pressure. The result is little 2.0l engines making huge power and torque.
    Electronic control advanced engine to levels of performance that we could only dream of 20 years ago.

    In person I still prefer large capacity engines for 4x4`ing. The fly wheel effect of the larger rotating assy cannot be duplicated by the small engines.
    Slow crawling large capacity is still boss. Yes I knew ratios is part of the parcel.
    Last edited by grips; 2020/04/18 at 08:36 AM.
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  16. #32
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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    I have a Unimog 416 with a OM352 5.7 straight 6 diesel with 60 odd kW and 350nm torque.

    My friend has a Unimog 404 with a m180 2.2 straight 6 petrol with 60kw and 152nm.

    Due to gearing there is very little between the two when crawling up a hill. Both will outperform just about anything built or bought in the slow technical stuff.
    And this with two VERY different engines.

    Point being that gearing and tyre size probably has a bigger effect than anything else when crawling up a hill.

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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    Quote Originally Posted by grips View Post
    In the end it is the force created to push down the piston

    Better materials and new tech help to create higher effective piston pressure. The result is little 2.0l engines making huge power and torque.
    Electronic control advanced engine to levels of performance that we could only dream of 20 years ago.

    In person I still prefer large capacity engines for 4x4`ing. The fly wheel effect of the larger rotating assy cannot be duplicated by the small engines.
    Slow crawling large capacity is still boss. Yes I knew ratios is part of the parcel.
    I don't disagree. However, this is a cycle that has been running for 150 years. There was a time that a 5-litre engine was considered small.
    Fortunately the improvements in technology eventually filter down to the big engines too. I firmly believe that the best over-landers are cars with somewhat outdated technology. Not the latest technology, but perhaps not too old either...
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  20. #34
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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone101 View Post
    I have a Unimog 416 with a OM352 5.7 straight 6 diesel with 60 odd kW and 350nm torque.

    My friend has a Unimog 404 with a m180 2.2 straight 6 petrol with 60kw and 152nm.

    Due to gearing there is very little between the two when crawling up a hill. Both will outperform just about anything built or bought in the slow technical stuff.
    And this with two VERY different engines.

    Point being that gearing and tyre size probably has a bigger effect than anything else when crawling up a hill.
    I have owned a 416 ex SADF I say no more

    Don't think that any stock 4x4 can go where a Mog goes.
    Last edited by grips; 2020/04/18 at 07:14 PM.
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  22. #35
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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    Quote Originally Posted by grips View Post
    Jelo started it.

    But lets get back to cylinders I have yet to drive an engine that can duplicate the torque of a large capacity v8. Let it be diesel or petrol.
    Can not fault you on this, a 8l v8 petrol just puts a huge smile on your face, that is once you have pulled it out from the back of your helmet. The 6l V12 twin turbo diesel with 1000nm torque does a similar job and the little 1900tdi that makes close to 1000NM on the fly wheel is a close contender.

    All 3 engines producing similar torque the V8 has capacity to make its mark while the v12 uses twin turbo common rail technology. The little 4 cyl has just been heavily tuned and modified with a huge turbo, software and enough nitrous to start a war.

    one of the reasons why I think diesels are less cylinders than petrol is the fact that diesels have almost double the compression to that of petrol and need cranks that are much heavier than petrol cranks. Petrol engines are measured in kw because they rev much higher than the traditional Diesels. New age diesels with their common rail and computer controlled management rev higher than old school but in general they still do not rev as high as a petrol
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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    Thank you for all the feedback and discussions.

    My question is still, letís say hypothetically that all else being equal would it be better for towing and heavy duty off roading to buy a 6 or even 8 cylinder vehicle compared to a 4 cylinder. For instance, if you detuned the 3.0 V6 Amarok, 165kw & 550nm, to produce the same kw and nm as the 3.0 4 cylinder Prado engine, 120kw & 400nm, or the 3.0 4 cylinder Pajero engine, 140kw & 441nm. Would the V6 run cooler, use less fuel, last longer, perform better when towing a 2 ton caravan or when driving up a steep dune? I understand the Amarok engine must be tougher than the Prado & Pajero engines as it can handle the higher outputs but put that aside. Looking at it another way, if you added two more pistons to the Prado & Pajero engines without changing the outputs, would improve the functionality?

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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    Quote Originally Posted by mulderpm View Post
    Thank you for all the feedback and discussions.

    My question is still, letís say hypothetically that all else being equal would it be better for towing and heavy duty off roading to buy a 6 or even 8 cylinder vehicle compared to a 4 cylinder. For instance, if you detuned the 3.0 V6 Amarok, 165kw & 550nm, to produce the same kw and nm as the 3.0 4 cylinder Prado engine, 120kw & 400nm, or the 3.0 4 cylinder Pajero engine, 140kw & 441nm. Would the V6 run cooler, use less fuel, last longer, perform better when towing a 2 ton caravan or when driving up a steep dune? I understand the Amarok engine must be tougher than the Prado & Pajero engines as it can handle the higher outputs but put that aside. Looking at it another way, if you added two more pistons to the Prado & Pajero engines without changing the outputs, would improve the functionality?
    In short, no. More cylinders does not make a difference, all else being equal.

    Cooling is a function of the cooling system design, and is mostly dependent on power as more power means more heat.

    Fuel consumption is a function of efficiency. And there are way too many factors that change efficiency to attribute it to the number of pistons

    Lasting longer would be a function of stress on internal components. Lower power large capacity engines last longer, regardless of the amount of pistons as they produce less heat and have lower cyclic forces.

    The number of pistons is only a design requirement, all layouts can be made to do the same if the design allows.

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  27. #38
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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    I love this straight six. I am also sure that the power delivery to the drive train is smoother.
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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    To add to what Cyclone101 said, you also have to consider the vibration in the design. V6 engines can be bad for that. V8s are way better.
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    Default Re: 4 Cylinder vs 6 & 8 Cylinders

    I love the low down torque of a V8 and that sound! But times are changing.
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