please help me calculate....





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  1. #1
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    Default please help me calculate....

    please help me here, it might have been asked before.

    so I spoke to a service provider..... Saturday.

    he claims he fitted a 8 kw system for a guy for a total cost of R 245000.00, the guys is off grid completely.
    he claims that savings are immediate.

    so, I have the R 250 k in cash.
    but, currently im using around R 1000 of electricity a month.

    being self employed, we do have generators, so if I need one during load shedding I just start it.
    its only rated at 4,7kw normal 4,2kw and it is a industrial type "old orange ones"
    so we will run it what is can handle and will not let if suffer.

    if I do my own calculations and just for example.

    I take the r250k and I earn interest on it.
    at 6% interest I get r 15k a year.
    that's R 1250 per month.
    that is enough to buy my monthly electricity which I use.
    at the end of the year I still have my r 250k in the bank.

    so why spend r250k on a system which eventually will wear out, insurance premiums will increase with the added equipment, how much is unknown etc.

    even if there was a 10% increase in tariffs, how long will my R 250k last if I did need to start using the initial amount "capital"?

    if I did fit a system my property value should increase, but should I decide to sell my property and move, will I get my price?
    would I be better off removing the equipment before the sale?

    dis maklik om te seg, doen dit en dat.
    maar wat as.....al is as, verbrande hout?

    your comments please.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: please help me calculate....

    Invest the money. Use some of you money and change geyser to solar. By that I mean small 15000.00 solar system that also can be used during load shedding. Few panels batteries inveter to run lights and plugs but not stove and heat water during the day only. Keep you electical supply to geyser for rainy days. Install a switch over switch at geyser

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  4. #3
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    Default Re: please help me calculate....

    You are spot on WWS.

    Two titbits I leave you with.

    Quote Originally Posted by willem wikkel spies View Post
    ... that's R 1250 per month.
    that is enough to buy my monthly electricity which I use.
    at the end of the year I still have my r 250k in the bank.
    I'm not an investment guy, but what I have heard them say, due to inflation, you may not have R250k in the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by willem wikkel spies View Post
    dis maklik om te seg, doen dit en dat.
    maar wat as.....al is as, verbrande hout?
    If you want to reduce your R1000pm Eskom bill, ONLY IF MOST OF THE LOADS ARE DAYTIME, and get a ROI ASAP (5-7 years), then the cheapest way I know of, whilst using the gennie during failures, is a Solis grid tied inverter.

    And if you want to be NRS compliant ito 60amp breaker i.e. 3.5kw max, a 3kw one the least problematic: As an example:
    Inverter: https://www.solar-shop.co.za/solis-g...solis-3kw.html
    Current sense: https://www.solar-shop.co.za/accesso...-solis-ct.html
    Data Stick: https://www.solar-shop.co.za/accesso...olis-wifi.html

    Mounting frames, wires, combiner box and panels: About R4k per panel - averages out about +-R2k per panel and +-R2k per panel to mount and connect them
    So 10 x 350watt panels = +-R40k .. if you don't shop hard.


    If you want to use less inverter, and more batteries, that is the costly part. A LOT of petrol can be bought for the price of a lithium bank.
    So are batteries a WANT or a NEED, because as a WANT, with batteries, the price rockets.

    A 3kva hybrid grid tied system should be around R120k - R150k, with panels, batts etc.
    Last edited by the_terrible_triplett; 2020/03/11 at 11:10 PM.
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  6. #4
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    Default Re: please help me calculate....

    dankie mnr.

    i heard the new life 4 was r 124k.

    about 20 years life span.

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    Default Re: please help me calculate....

    I am completely off-grid (for 3 months now) .


    Did I do it for the investment?

    Hell NO

    BUT

    ROI = 6 years and 7 months without increases from Eskom.

    I stay on a farm and have the unfair "advantage" of transformer rental. It makes the buy back period a lot shorter and in my mind a no-brainer (everyone should justify their expenditure).

    Currently load shedding. TV is on, roof fan running. All the lights still on that children always forget to switch off. If I need to run the washing machine no need to panic. Electrical kettle gets used twice in the evening.

    Weather and cable theft also has a big influence.

    My system cost - R210K and that includes a 6.5 kW generator.

    Would I have done it if I was still staying in the city? Probably not.

  8. #6
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    Default Re: please help me calculate....

    I got a 4 plate gas stove and because im camping have got kettles and lamps. Eskom doesnt worry me to much. But it must not be off for to long because of food in the fridge. 9 kg gas lasts 2 months and im saving much more one electricity
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    Default Re: please help me calculate....

    That 10% on the investment, which is already very optimistic and not guaranteed, is taxed at your marginal rate.

    That 10% Eskom increase is compounded.

    You will need a system anyway because of Load Shedding, which will probably get even worse.

    When you sell you will probably get even more than you paid for it. Ask any estate agent. Houses with PV systems sell like hotcakes, especially because the buyer doesn't see it as an expense, it is simply part of a bond he has to pay.

    And it may be an expensive grin, but boy is it a triumphant smug grin when you give Eskom the two fingers salute.
    Last edited by Fluffy; 2020/03/12 at 09:46 PM.
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  11. #8
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    Default Re: please help me calculate....

    Quote Originally Posted by willem wikkel spies View Post

    dis maklik om te seg, doen dit en dat.
    maar wat as.....al is as, verbrande hout?

    your comments please.
    Nou ja dat ek ook maar seg - en nie duim suig nie. As jy 'n 50% van jou krag deur die dag gebruik kan die volgende vir jou 'n goeie opbrengs gee.
    Solis 2.5kW grid tied=R7 150
    8 x 330W panele=R14 000
    Oprigting=R16 000 (TTT se syfers geleen)
    Totaal=R37 150
    Hierdie stelsel kan 9kwh per dag opwek en laat 25% weg vir dae sonder son. Dus omtrent 11kwh per dag, 330kwh per maand en 3960kwh per jaar. Dus R7 920 per jaar @ R2 per kwh vir die 1e jaar. R9 100 vir jaar 2. R10 470 jaar 3. R12 045 jaar 4. Vir die 4 jaar spaar jy R39 500 Jou koste van die stelsel terug. Daarna lag jy elke keer as Eskom hul krag verhoog.

    So nou is jou rekening R660p.m. minder-jy betaal net R590pm. Jy het R208 000 oor wat rente trek teen 6%. Jy verdien dus R1 040 per maand en gebruik net R590 p.m. daarvan. Jou geld word net meer en meer. Ja ek weet nie hoe lank gaan dit vat voor jou rente wel minder is as die deel wat nou R590 kos wat jy maandeliks moet betaal nie. Dalk word my syfers omver gegooi want jy gebruik die oorblywende rente om dalk 'n generator te koop vir die dae wat die grid af is.

    Ja hierdie is sonder 'n stelsel vir die 30 dae 'n jaar van LS. Daarvoor kan jy maar batterye koop vir die back up stelsel wat nie 'n positiewe opbrengs kan gee nie behalwe om te kan vertel dat jy nie Eskom nodig het nie. Sonder om na finansies te kyk is enige prys vir 'n back up off grid stelsel vir sekere mense altyd 'n "bargain"

    So bogenoemde dui daarop dat jy nie R245 000 hoef uit te gee nie. Dis die groot verskil tussen grid tied en enige ander stelsel.

    Val ek dalk uit die bus?

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    Default Re: please help me calculate....

    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    Val ek dalk uit die bus?
    Amper ...
    Solis het 2 parte nodig, die data stick en die current sensor.
    En die ander faktor, hoe lank hou die toerusting?

    Werk daai twee faktore in en jy sit stewig.
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    Default Re: please help me calculate....

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post
    Amper ...
    Solis het 2 parte nodig, die data stick en die current sensor.
    En die ander faktor, hoe lank hou die toerusting?

    Werk daai twee faktore in en jy sit stewig.
    Geen persoon kan bo alle twyfel bepaal hoe lank sy of enige ander ou se inverter gaan hou nie. Ons weet mos party mense se karre breek altyd. Ander weer ry lekker moeitevry.

    Ek glo nie die 2 parte het veel te make of 'n beduidende invloed op die totale koste soos ek probeer aandui het nie.

    Dis suiwer 'n geval of jy gadgets aanhang. Dis net "nice to have" om 'n data stick te he. Die inverter gee jou klaar die PVout in watts vir elke dag, die vorige dag, maand tot op datum, totaal vandat dit ingesit is. Ja ek het een en het ook al van my grafieke geplaas maar vir iemand wat nie in die detail ingaan soos jy nie is dit glad nie 'n vereiste nie.

    Dis maklik om W, V en A te meet of iemand te kry wat dit kan doen.

    Hoekom se ek so - jou nuwe kar hoef nie dadelik nuwe mags met bree tekkies te kry nie. Hy kan sy rol goed vervul met waarmee hy uitgekom het. Trouens net my laaste 4 voertuie het mags gehad en my ou 1400 bakkie loop lekker met staal wiele

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    Default Re: please help me calculate....

    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    Geen persoon kan bo alle twyfel bepaal hoe lank sy of enige ander ou se inverter gaan hou nie. Ons weet mos party mense se karre breek altyd. Ander weer ry lekker moeitevry.
    Ja en nee. Een manier is om na die waarborg te kyk. Een jaar versus 5 jaar, of 10 jaar op batts (as die Maatskappy nog bestaan).

    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    Ek glo nie die 2 parte het veel te make of 'n beduidende invloed op die totale koste soos ek probeer aandui het nie.
    Dis suiwer 'n geval of jy gadgets aanhang. Dis net "nice to have" om 'n data stick te he. Die inverter gee jou klaar die PVout in watts vir elke dag, die vorige dag, maand tot op datum, totaal vandat dit ingesit is. Ja ek het een en het ook al van my grafieke geplaas maar vir iemand wat nie in die detail ingaan soos jy nie is dit glad nie 'n vereiste nie.
    Dis maklik om W, V en A te meet of iemand te kry wat dit kan doen.
    Ja en nee.
    Sonder deeglike data is 'n solar sisteem amper useless - dis soos jy maak jou kar vol, sonder 'n fuel gauge, en ry, met somme agter op 'n sigaret boksie.

    Sonder 'n current sensor stuur jy dalk te veel krag terug, PAYG meter trip, en gebruiker se die sisteem "werk nie".

    Gee eerder meer info as te min.

    Quote Originally Posted by ekkekan View Post
    Hoekom se ek so - jou nuwe kar hoef nie dadelik nuwe mags met bree tekkies te kry nie. Hy kan sy rol goed vervul met waarmee hy uitgekom het. Trouens net my laaste 4 voertuie het mags gehad en my ou 1400 bakkie loop lekker met staal wiele
    Hoekom se ek so: Mens begin met 'n prys, dan skuif dit op ... mense verloor moed.
    Last edited by the_terrible_triplett; 2020/03/13 at 01:11 AM.
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    Default Re: please help me calculate....

    Ek en 'n pel, paar jaar terug, het somme gedoen. Hy werk vir 'n groot finansiele instansie met al die slim sagteware, en hy het toe 'n Axpert gehad.
    Vra hom toe om asb die somme te maak met 'n Axpert stelsel kostes vs Eskom besparings VS die geld te bele.

    Somme het sin gemaak oor +-15 jaar maar nie as jy lening maak VS die geld bele.

    Daarom noem ek WANT's vs NEED's. Pryse en redes en "justification of spend", maak 'n hengse verskil.
    Pet project/ hobby - no cost attached.

    Solar sukkel in my opinie, agv van:
    1) Kostes - mense wat verkoop en installeer, skep te diep. Mense glo mos, hoe meer ek betaal hoe beter is die sisteem .. Ja en Nee ... Caveat Emptor, dis JOU geld, JOU verantwoordelikheid.
    2) Mense verwag wat hulle DINK hulle verstaan, realiteit is totaal anders want niemand wil vir ander se wat werk nie so lekker. Political correctness ...
    3) Mense dink solar is soos Eskom ... dit werk altyd en jy hoef nooit te dink ... yeah right, "There you go sunshine ... ".
    4) Regering.

    Solar kos dinkwerk, passie, interest ... geld.
    Doen dit wys, doen dit reg, doen dit slim ... en jy smile VS willie luister en die "Wet van Transvaal" skop in.

    Ek praat mense maklik uit solar ... dan verstaan hulle hoekom nie.
    Dan praat ek hulle terug in solar in.
    As hulle DAN besluit om nogsteeds solar te gaan, weet ek dis met oop oge.
    Last edited by the_terrible_triplett; 2020/03/13 at 01:09 AM.
    Political Correctness
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    Saw this in a pub - no idea why the wife does not see it so:
    I'm not opinionated ... I'm just always right!

  16. #13
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    Default Re: please help me calculate....

    Quote Originally Posted by the_terrible_triplett View Post

    Solar kos dinkwerk, passie, interest ... geld.
    Doen dit wys, doen dit reg, doen dit slim ... en jy smile VS willie luister en die "Wet van Transvaal" skop in.

    Ek praat mense maklik uit solar ... dan verstaan hulle hoekom nie.
    Dan praat ek hulle terug in solar in.
    As hulle DAN besluit om nogsteeds solar te gaan, weet ek dis met oop oge.
    Hoe se hulle mos, huil eenkeer en smile daar na al die pad.

    Ek back TTT hier beslis, solar is n duur storie, dit vat tyd en jy moet passie vir dir he, dan gaan jy dit geniet en die system gaan werk vir jou.

    As mense vir my vrae wat my setup kos, verduidelik ek hulle eers mooi verskil tussen n brand en n goeie brand en hoe als werk.

    Dit is n hele mind change ook om hoe als moet werk en hoe jy solar moet gebruik in jou huis.

    Maar ek love dit elke dag en trek elke dag inligting en will sien hoe my system werk.

  17. #14
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    Default Re: please help me calculate....

    Dankie vir hierdie thread.Al hierdie vrae dwarrel in my kop vir die laaste 3 maande.

    ROI is vir my belangrik, ek is nie te veel gepla oor gemak nie, maar ek vermy ook "complexity".

    As gevolg hiervan sit ek nou op die kantlyn en peuter met my eie DIY backup sisteempie terwyl ek besluit.
    Last edited by Sawdust; 2020/03/13 at 07:17 AM.
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    Default Re: please help me calculate....

    En dan kry jy mense wat net wil aangaan met hulle lewe, hulle wil nie hol en ketel afskakel omdat die haardroër aan is nie, wil nie die huis verlaat met 'n skottelgoed wasser vol vuil skottelgoed tydens loadshedding, want jou db is gesplit. Wat gat vol is vir die gedreun van 'n generator 9uur in die nag.

    Daar is 'n premie te betaal vir dit maar glo my baie mense wil nie weet hoe veel amp sy stelsel nou trek nie, wil nie die daaglikse opbrengs plot en op 'n forum daaroor brag nie, hulle wil net aangaan met 'n normale lewe, en hulle is bereid om te betaal vir dit. Dieselfde mense wat kinders by die skool aflaai met 'n Prado en nie 'n Avanza nie, want hulle kan.

    Almal se behoeftes verskil, ek merk 'n mate van Solar snobisme hier op, een resep en as jy dit nie uit daardie perspektief sien nie is jy dom en mors geld.

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    Default Re: please help me calculate....

    Quote Originally Posted by faniedup View Post
    ...Almal se behoeftes verskil, ek merk 'n mate van Solar snobisme hier op, een resep en as jy dit nie uit daardie perspektief sien nie is jy dom en mors geld.
    Baie dankie! Ek weet niks maar lees soms hier, meestal om Fluffy se posts te sien. Maar ek moet se die laaste ruk raak dit onaangenaam.

    WRT to the OP. We can sit around and talk about money, costs, lifetime of components, ROI until the cows come home. You have the cash and only you can decide to do with it.

    We went solar last year June and have since added one more pylontech battery to the 2 we had initially. Was it a good investment? Who the hang nows . But our electricity bill is almost zero now as we have a solar geyser as well. Will we ever get the money back in the 5 - 15 years we plan to stay there still? Probably not.

    Do I always have power? YES!!!. Does it make my life easier and less stressful? YES!!. I don't have to plan meals, dish washing, laundry, ironing around when the power might be off or load shedding. You cannot place a monetary value on that.
    Last edited by lekhubu943; 2020/03/13 at 09:12 AM.
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    Default Re: please help me calculate....

    Quote Originally Posted by lekhubu943 View Post

    Do I always have power? YES!!!. Does it make my life easier and less stressful? YES!!. I don't have to plan meals, dish washing, laundry, ironing around when the power might be off or load shedding. You cannot place a monetary value on that.
    As I have asked on another thread, how do you price the convenience of being always on?
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    Ja ons probeer altyd van ons verwysingsraamwerk. Ek het pelle wat bv nie eers weet watse maak inverter hulle gebruik nie. Hul stelsel werk puik so daar is geen bewys dat ekstra gadgets die verskil sal maak nie. Die ontwerp en installeerder maak die verskil. Ja inligting is om te weet en aan te pas.
    Die beste voorbeeld wat ek het is bv waar geld belę is as dit in aandele is. Meer as 80% van mense weet nie in watse fonds die geld is nie. Weet net dis 'n slegte fonds as die markte val
    Terug na 'n motor. Mens hoef nie te weet hoe groot is die enjin. Hoeveel ratte het die outomatiese ratkas, hoeveel silinders het dit. Solank dit vir jou werk is wat tel.

    Nee wat ek ken 'n paar mense met Solis sonder gadgets en ons los die kyk vir elke moontlike lesing vir diegene met Bat stelsels. Solis is plug and play met sy 5 drade en werk net reg.
    Last edited by ekkekan; 2020/03/13 at 08:43 AM.

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    Default Re: please help me calculate....

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof View Post
    As I have asked on another thread, how do you price the convenience of being always on?
    Well we know the answer, but I am sure some will soon post long technical posts to answer us either way.
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    Default Re: please help me calculate....

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    That 10% on the investment, which is already very optimistic and not guaranteed, is taxed at your marginal rate.

    That 10% Eskom increase is compounded.

    You will need a system anyway because of Load Shedding, which will probably get even worse.

    When you sell you will probably get even more than you paid for it. Ask any estate agent. Houses with PV systems sell like hotcakes, especially because the buyer doesn't see it as an expense, it is simply part of a bond he has to pay.

    And it may be an expensive grin, but boy is it a triumphant smug grin when you give Eskom the two fingers salute.
    This is how I see it too.

    You are spending most of the return on your R250k investment, so it has close to zero growth. Bar huge interest rate changes, that 6% is probably what you'll get out every year.

    Eskom price changes are compounded every year, over the last 10 years or so the increase has been well over 300%..
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