ASPW on intercoolers.... - Page 3





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  1. #41
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Kan mens nie net die Intake Air Temperate meet nie? (na die intercooler) . Dit is tog maar waaroor die intercooler gaan.

    Speel dan rond met lugvloei en n fan of wat ookal. Die IAT gaan jou die antwoord gee.

    .
    Last edited by KobusDJ; 2020/02/08 at 04:25 PM.
    Kobus

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  2. #42
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Friend of mine many, many, many years ago "toor-ed" his Mazda B2500 single cab bakkie and part of his mod was to run his aircon air into the intercooler or the intake manifold, I cannot remember. I am doff when it comes to these things, however I do remember the thing was an absolute beast.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    The basics: with the car moving forward, there is a high pressure area in front of the vehicle and a low pressure area below the engine bay. The high pressure air enters the grille and the low pressure below the engine bay then sucks heated air which has come through all apertures, heat exchangers and from around the engine downwards - out of the bay.

    In an ideal world, with unlimited grille area in front of the vehicle, all intakes/heat exchangers would be mounted vertically to take advantage of the ram effect generated by the ambient temperature airflow "approaching" (in actual fact, the air is not moving, the vehicle is) from the front.

    Unfortunately, design and engineering entails compromise. Options are to mount the inter cooler ahead of the radiator. Upside: space saving. Downside: less efficient airflow and slightly warmer airflow through the radiator which may compromise cooling. (My Defender uses this arrangement, aircon radiator, larger aftermarket intercooler and cooling radiator all mounted one behind the other)

    Where else could the intercooler go? Mount it horizontally with a suitable forward facing duct to take advantage of ram pressure rise in the duct and unheated ambient air. The duct turns this (relatively) high pressure, cool air through 90 degrees and pushes it through the intercooler which, because of fewer space restrictions, can now be of increased size. Once the air has been forced through the intercooler, it is sucked out the bottom of the engine bay by the relatively lower pressure below the bonnet/engine bay. So provided the the ducting and seals around the intercooler and bonnet are correctly designed and in good condition, I have no doubt that the system would work quite well. It is a Toyota after all, their engineers would have thought this through carefully.

    Nevertheless, we learn by discussing these things and I would be interested to hear ASPW elaborate on his thinking.

    PS. I may well have this completely wrong, it is my opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by mvcoller View Post
    I


    What I did was to get a radiator fan and mounted it on top of the intercooler and connected it to the '4x4' indicator lamp on the instrument panel via a relay. It meant that when I went into 4wd, and this is normally at lower speeds with less airflow through the intercooler, the fan pushed it through, ensuring that the rush of air through it not only cooled the compressed air, but also forced the hot air rising from the engine down, rather than up.

    On low range, crawling at lower speed, the change in power was really noticable...

    I like this, quite simple but clever !

  5. #45
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    I drive a Subaru turbo. TMIC and big scoop on the bonnet. Through the ODBII port you can monitor the intake temp live as you drive. Yes, standing idling it has massive heat soak from the engine and intake temps go up a lot (car does not have a fan like it seems some of the 4x4s have) but as soon as you get moving temps drop down.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Imagine if he used a D3/4 or RRS for his demo.

    He wouldn't have to keep attaching that damn bonnet arm to stop the bonnet from closing on his head.

    And he wouldn't have had a top mounted inter-cooler to illustrate his theory.

    ------------------------------

    I would like to know how much air actually passes thru that intake. Without seeing or modelling the airflow over that bonnet onto the windscreen/roof, its all just guessing. Both ASPW and all of us here. The air pressure at the intake, relative to under-bonnet, could be anything from a near vacuum to a high pressure zone, generated by a big swerling vortex created by the bonnets leading edge.
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  7. #47
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    I think the one one my Forester flows pretty good. Regularly have to clean bugs etc from the intercooler. And as stated I can monitor the intake temps and they definitely drop while driving.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Imagine if he used a D3/4 or RRS for his demo.

    He wouldn't have to keep attaching that damn bonnet arm to stop the bonnet from closing on his head.

    And he wouldn't have had a top mounted inter-cooler to illustrate his theory.

    LOL, I had the same thoughts when watching that

    ------------------------------

    I would like to know how much air actually passes thru that intake. Without seeing or modelling the airflow over that bonnet onto the windscreen/roof, its all just guessing. Both ASPW and all of us here. The air pressure at the intake, relative to under-bonnet, could be anything from a near vacuum to a high pressure zone, generated by a big swerling vortex created by the bonnets leading edge.
    Yes, all the above is guess work. But Toyota would not have released this had it not worked, and I'm sure they would have considered the alternative suggested by ASPW, which has not much merit in my book considering the temps involved.

    But, this is actually quite easy to test with a simple temperature probe in the inter-cooler and going for a ride. I suppose this was too simple for him to consider?
    Last edited by mikeml; 2020/02/10 at 05:44 PM.


  9. #49
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeml View Post
    Yes, all the above is guess work. But Toyota would not have released this had it not worked, and I'm sure they would have considered the alternative suggested by ASPW, which has not much merit in my book considering the temps involved.

    But, this is actually quite easy to test with a simple temperature probe in the inter-cooler and going for a ride. I suppose this was too simple for him to consider?
    To measure is to know. Mike interesting is that my measurements confirmed your calculations regarding snorkels.
    I am with you that most on this thread are taking wild guesses or copy directly from internet sources. Think those that have run scientific tests are scarce.

    Have planned to run tests on the v8 76 Cruiser this past weekend but some unplanned stuff popped up. Plan is to install temp probes before and after the intercooler. Also monitor under bonnet temps. Put the hot wire anemometer in the intake before the intercooler and measure air speed before and after the cooler.
    Would like to do this test on a vehicle with a front mount cooler. Would love to test a 76 v8 with a front mount aftermarket cooler.
    Think everyone needs to give me a gap as the next three weekends are fully booked.
    Last edited by grips; 2020/02/10 at 09:39 PM.
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  10. #50
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Wicd View Post
    I drive a Subaru turbo. TMIC and big scoop on the bonnet. Through the ODBII port you can monitor the intake temp live as you drive. Yes, standing idling it has massive heat soak from the engine and intake temps go up a lot (car does not have a fan like it seems some of the 4x4s have) but as soon as you get moving temps drop down.
    So Mitsubishi were onto something when they factory fitted a fan to the 2.8 engine's intercooler to compensate for this it seems then. Not that it prevented the engine from boiling it's head but still, the concept was there.
    "Stare, pry, listen, eavesdrop. Die knowing something, you are not here long"
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  11. #51
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by grips View Post
    To measure is to know. Mike interesting is that my measurements confirmed your calculations regarding snorkels.
    I am with you that most on this thread are taking wild guesses or copy directly from internet sources. Think those that have run scientific tests are scarce.

    Have planned to run tests on the v8 76 Cruiser this past weekend but some unplanned stuff popped up. Plan is to install temp probes before and after the intercooler. Also monitor under bonnet temps. Put the hot wire anemometer in the intake before the intercooler and measure air speed before and after the cooler.
    Would like to do this test on a vehicle with a front mount cooler. Would love to test a 76 v8 with a front mount aftermarket cooler.
    Think everyone needs to give me a gap as the next three weekends are fully booked.
    Fantastic! This will put the discussion to bed. Thanks Grips!


  12. #52
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    This guy occupies a LOT of cranial retail space in more than a few noggins here.
    Cheers,
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  13. #53
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Having owned 4 Subarus the top mount intercooler was always up for discussion.
    On my STI I had a button (factory fitted) that sprayed misted water on the intercooler while it was standing, to help with heat soak.
    People that were in to drag racing also always stuffed the scoop with ice before their run.
    Front mounted intercoolers were popular fitment by some but the biggest problem with a FMI is that your pipe lengths increase from the IC to the turbo and that meant more lag.
    I have never driven the Cruzer being discussed but pretty sure more lag will be a big no no.
    Top mount is a good compromise since as soon as you start driving the forced fresh/cooler air will keep the rising hot air at bay and away from the IC.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Mark Trollope
    Prado 120 V6, Fortuner V6, Hilux 2.7, Cruiser 80 EFi, Cruiser 75, Lexus RX350, Jaguar JAKI4

  15. #55
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Trollope View Post
    Love it - entertaining and enlightening with wonderful humour. LOL @ 3NADS, sounds like 3NAGS


  16. #56
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Trollope View Post
    Video ...
    Nearly as painful to watch, but at least he backs his response up with facts.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity" - Martin Luther king Jr

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  17. #57
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Agreed
    Mark Trollope
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  18. #58
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    I have a device that displays on my cellphone under all driving conditions:

    Ambient air temperature
    Under-bonnet air temperature
    Turbo out air pressure and temperature
    Intercooler out air temperature
    Turbo in air pressure.

    I can display and record all these parameters as well as photos of the environment where they occur.

    Without going into too much detail I can tell you that top mounted intercoolers only work at highway speeds.

    Under bonnet temperatures are 30 - 40 C higher than ambient.

    At low climbing speeds with adverse wind a 'reflux' of underbonnet air upwards through the intercooler causes very high induction temperatures (+100C).

    If you want to calculate the dynamic air pressure ahead of the radiator, above the top-mounted intercooler or ahead of your forward-facing snorkel, you square your forward speed in metres per second and halve the result, which is in pascals.

    So if your speed is 120km/h or 33.3 metres per second, that squared is 1,111, divided by 2 =555pascals. Since 1 bar = 100,000 pascals this equals 5.5mBar.

    The important part of my message is that there can be a negative pressure behind the airfilter of 50 - 100 mBar due to thefilter being clogged. This is not a guess - I've measured it of often enough.

    If you want better performance clean or change your airfilter.

    Since many have correctly surmised that the auto engineers are no fools and know how best to optimise an intercooler for normal operations I might just add that towing is not factored into the engineers calculations. If you tow something that causes your fuel consumption to rise then you will need to supply more air to burn that fuel. This extra load on the intercooler will most certainly cause the induction temperature to rise (remember I measure these things, this is not theory) and your engine will be less efficient.

    Other than that you can trust whoever designed your intercooler (within limits of economy).

  19. #59
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    The 200 series Cruiser also has its intercooler mounted on top of the V8. It receives its cooling air via an internal duct in the bonnet from the front of the vehicle. Place like Vogue 4x4 boost low speed intercooler performance with fans as in the photo.
    Name:  Vogue intercooler.jpg
Views: 165
Size:  800.7 KB
    '89 LR 110 V8

  20. #60
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike N View Post
    The 200 series Cruiser also has its intercooler mounted on top of the V8. It receives its cooling air via an internal duct in the bonnet from the front of the vehicle. Place like Vogue 4x4 boost low speed intercooler performance with fans as in the photo.
    Name:  Vogue intercooler.jpg
Views: 165
Size:  800.7 KB
    That's nice to have but far from necessary for most engines since the turbo only starts to to work at high exhaust gas volumes, which implies substantial forward movement.
    Where I have found the system to fail is for instance on the Hex River Pass hauling my Conqueror in second gear. Often a following wind will reverse the flow and feed hot air upwards through the intercooler. Not only is this hot air but it moves very slowly, so very soon the intercooler body goes to about 140C.
    The purpose of the intercooler is to bring the induction air as close to ambient as possible. In practice it's the last 30C that are the hardest to lose. If your induction air is only 30C above ambient you're doing pretty well, that makes your intercooler 90% efficient, which means a loss of only about 5% of potential engine output.
    Blowing hot radiator-heated air upwards through the intercooler (which is about 40C above ambient) will raise induction temperature to 30 + 40 + loss factor of 10+. Think 90C, which brings intercooler efficiency down to 70% at best.
    It is interesting to see how much rpm at wide throttle opening is required to get a full bar of boost from the turbo. Mostly in city driving turbo boost doesn't exceed 400mB. Possibly it's designed that way to avoid excessive reliance on the waste gate under highway conditions
    One thing I'm certain of is that without a good grounding in basic physics people will never understand how a turbo/intercooler system works.
    The same way most don't understand what torque is.

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