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  1. #61
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Thanks Fyko, fascinating to have some numbers to back up the theory.

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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintinC View Post
    Thanks Fyko, fascinating to have some numbers to back up the theory.
    This is quite a useful gadget if you're serious about knowing what goes on in your engine's innards, but it's not really suited to the average home user.

    The top number represents the combined effectiveness of the turbo/intercooler system as a percentage of perfect.

    You have the turbo in and out pressure horizontally across the turbo icon. The turbo in (negative) pressure depends to a large extent on the resistance offered by the air filter, this should be below -10mB with a clean filter, but can reach -100mB if it's really clogged. This is the only item you really have control over, the rest was decided for you by the engineers. Bear in mind that a medium sized engine can suck 100 litres of air per second through that filter, it needs to offer minimum resistance.

    Horizontally across the intercooler icon you have the intercooler induction temps, before and after the i/c.

    Vertically down across the i/c icon you have the ambient above the i/c and the under-bonnet temp below.

    There's a bit of a myth going around that you can spray water on the i/c to lower the output induction temp, so there's a button that activates a pump that sprays water on the i/c so you can check the result. Doesn't do much, in my experience.

    Then there's a button to capture screenshots which are numbered sequentially when they're saved. Optionally the camera will prompt you to take a picture either of the terrain outside or the instrument panel, so you do a post mortem on the result from your comfortable armchair afterwards.

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    Mounting the i/c above the engine limits it's effectiveness to highway conditions. My LR Defender has a much better turbo/intercooler performance profile because the i/c benefits from being served by the fan (which often runs in city conditions, though not always) and not being subjected to reverse airflows, and more reliable airflows at low forward speeds.

    Reverse airflows are most common with top-mounted i/c's when the forward speed is low and the underbonnet pressure is augmented a little by the fan screaming on a slow climb. Note that the dynamic air pressure on the front of the vehicle at 120km/h is about 5mB which will always be far higher than the underbonnet pressure no matter how hard the fan is blowing because the engine compartment is open at the bottom. At low forward speeds that dynamic pressure drops to nearly nothing and reverse flows through the i/c are then very possible.

    Also, because increased turbo/intercooler increases the engine's output power, and because the diesel engine can never be more than 26% efficient, at least 74% of the added power either through the radiator, the oil cooler, or the exhaust pipe. For every 1% of power increase 3% more heat will be generated.

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  4. #63
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Fyko

    I thought I was over the top in terms of watching things on my D1 300 tdi

    This system will mean I will hardly ever watch the road in front

    The pressure and temp inserts into the various before and after turbo and intercooler etc
    of what brand are they and physically how did you mount them in the piping ?

    My van doesnt use any oil between my 5000 k interval's

    But soft sand of maybe only 200 kilo's will use 500 ml's of oil easily
    Seeing your - 100 mBar reading - not absolute but relative I assume - for a dirty filter
    I think explains that it is scavenging oil from my tappet cover ?

    Now these are stats of the highest order

    Somewhere in my brain the formula for power (kw) is divided by intake temp squared squared

    So temps are very very important

    Thks for your input on this matter

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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by W3771M View Post
    Ok, so if you are having a bad day... here is something to watch...

    Dom ####. All hot air is forced downwards and under the car.

    To draw the hot air from the radiators, exhaust and all manner of really hot stuff over the intercooler is never going to work
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  6. #65
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    I'm going to generalize now, so please do not take offence.

    There is a trend I've picked up whereby older member of the forum take more offence to things they deem to be incorrect, rightly or wrongly. I think this is a perfectly reasonable and understandable culture thing. If someone says something you disagree with, you almost take it personally if you believe to know better. I think this comes from the days of limited and to be frank, graded knowledge sources( i'm an qualified engineer or sparky, I know what I'm talking about). If you said A equals B, people asked who the F are you and substantiate your claims. And if you where incorrect, then you would be personally held accountable. Nothing wrong with that. Its a sort of master and apprentice system that worked for generations. Seriously I see this with my own father and do not believe it a weakness in any way.

    Now days, and i'm sort of on the upper levels of this. Fact is based on collective of opinion, and you see if with the younger people. Everyone says, such and such, look here on my phone, and therefore its true. BUT they are also more open to viewing 10 or 20 different view points without taking offence or attacking the individual.

    Right or wrong, Andrew posted an interesting question, some could stick to facts as he asked for, others could not and called him an idiot. Fine. But he is a content creator, and then internet is filled with 200 million other people asking or creating the same question.

    I come to this forum for a mix of both, experts in the field by years of experience, and then weight of opinion. I'm experienced enough about the internet (being a millennial) to take everything with a pinch of salt. And that mileage may vary. But i've learned heeps from this form and youtube and ASPW and 200 other youtubers.

    So whats my point. Enjoy the debate, remember your opinion and experience matter. But there is always another side to every story or a motivator. So think for yourself, and don't debase yourself to being a nasty C word troll who cant enjoy a good old fashion argument. Enjoy your glass of wine or brandy, and have a good night.
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  7. #66
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by RossJ View Post
    Fyko

    I thought I was over the top in terms of watching things on my D1 300 tdi

    This system will mean I will hardly ever watch the road in front

    The pressure and temp inserts into the various before and after turbo and intercooler etc
    of what brand are they and physically how did you mount them in the piping ?

    My van doesnt use any oil between my 5000 k interval's

    But soft sand of maybe only 200 kilo's will use 500 ml's of oil easily
    Seeing your - 100 mBar reading - not absolute but relative I assume - for a dirty filter
    I think explains that it is scavenging oil from my tappet cover ?

    Now these are stats of the highest order

    Somewhere in my brain the formula for power (kw) is divided by intake temp squared squared

    So temps are very very important

    Thks for your input on this matter
    You're quite right - this gadget isn't permanently installed, just long enough to get a performance profile, usually by a tech in the passenger seat. The saved screenshots mean you don't need to do any thinking while driving - all the data is saved for afterwards.

    The probes a pushed through holes drilled in the hoses, which are closed with stainless steel screws afterwards, or the hoses are replaced if they're already in crappy condition.

    This device was developed initially to deter a friend from spending R18k of his children's school fees on an after-market i/c that yet another pal told him would double his engine power. (Now his kids are back in school.) It is useful to maybe half a dozen guys in any given country that are in the business of making after-market power products, or some fastidious rich chap that wants to fiddle with expensive gadgetry. As I said before the only cogent reason to tamper with your i/c is if you habitually tow something that increases your fuel consumption. An i/c that is designed to dissipate 1kw at 120km/h of airflow will get quite hot when you put 1.2kw into it. It won't damage anything but the i/c body will heat up until the higher temperature gradient stabilises the heat transfer.

    A good rule of thumb is that 30oC of temperature increase costs you 10% of engine power. So if the ambient is at 0oC your engine will be doing 10% better than it would at 30oC. Since turbo boost accounts for up to 50% of total engine power a 30% loss of i/c efficiency (induction air above ambient) will cost around 5% of total potential engine output.

    I keep harping on about air filters because, when clogged, they can make the turbo suck a lot harder and delay max boost pressure by hundreds of rpm. And they're cheap and easy to change. My suggestion is: if you tap the filter against something and substantial grit falls out, don't bother with cleaning it, because small particles will remain stuck in the matrix and permanently block those little air passages. You need to appreciate just how much air goes through that filter at full engine output. The air flow perpendicular to the element paper straightened out runs at about 7 metres per second, you can imagine the tornado entering at the folded pleats.

    If your crankcase breather connects to the intake tract this won't change anything much, because applying a partial vacuum of 10 - 20 mB (relative to ambient pressure) won't suck any more oil into the turbo, and crankcase gas won't go far towards supplying the 100 l/sec that the turbo demands. I can't imagine what is causing increased oil consumption at low speeds. My Tdi's all use 1 litre per 1000kms, but they've been bored and sleeved.

    One further point regarding those fans over the i/c: Some workshops that do dynamometer testing, say after chipping a common rail engine don't have the means to duct sufficient air through the i/c vanes, leading to the induction air becoming very hot and the affecting the chip optimisation. Running the engine without load never gets the turbo going sufficiently to generate much boost and hence heat, but on the dynamometer the engine is run at full power, and that changes everything, and those fans would be really useful there.

  8. #67
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    Imagine if he used a D3/4 or RRS for his demo.

    He wouldn't have to keep attaching that damn bonnet arm to stop the bonnet from closing on his head.

    And he wouldn't have had a top mounted inter-cooler to illustrate his theory.



    ------------------------------

    I would like to know how much air actually passes thru that intake. Without seeing or modelling the airflow over that bonnet onto the windscreen/roof, its all just guessing. Both ASPW and all of us here. The air pressure at the intake, relative to under-bonnet, could be anything from a near vacuum to a high pressure zone, generated by a big swerling vortex created by the bonnets leading edge.
    Never understood why they even have an opening bonnet............don't you have to take the whole body off to do an oil change on those masterpieces
    Last edited by dirtshark; 2020/02/12 at 09:31 AM.
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  9. #68
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ubbo View Post
    Dom ####.
    Really?
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Quiksilver View Post
    I'm going to generalize now, so please do not take offence.

    There is a trend I've picked up whereby older member of the forum take more offence to things they deem to be incorrect, rightly or wrongly. I think this is a perfectly reasonable and understandable culture thing. If someone says something you disagree with, you almost take it personally if you believe to know better. I think this comes from the days of limited and to be frank, graded knowledge sources( i'm an qualified engineer or sparky, I know what I'm talking about). If you said A equals B, people asked who the F are you and substantiate your claims. And if you where incorrect, then you would be personally held accountable. Nothing wrong with that. Its a sort of master and apprentice system that worked for generations. Seriously I see this with my own father and do not believe it a weakness in any way.

    Now days, and i'm sort of on the upper levels of this. Fact is based on collective of opinion, and you see if with the younger people. Everyone says, such and such, look here on my phone, and therefore its true. BUT they are also more open to viewing 10 or 20 different view points without taking offence or attacking the individual.

    Right or wrong, Andrew posted an interesting question, some could stick to facts as he asked for, others could not and called him an idiot. Fine. But he is a content creator, and then internet is filled with 200 million other people asking or creating the same question.

    I come to this forum for a mix of both, experts in the field by years of experience, and then weight of opinion. I'm experienced enough about the internet (being a millennial) to take everything with a pinch of salt. And that mileage may vary. But i've learned heeps from this form and youtube and ASPW and 200 other youtubers.

    So whats my point. Enjoy the debate, remember your opinion and experience matter. But there is always another side to every story or a motivator. So think for yourself, and don't debase yourself to being a nasty C word troll who cant enjoy a good old fashion argument. Enjoy your glass of wine or brandy, and have a good night.
    Agree.
    If you dont like the guy, scroll past the thread and dont watch the video, easy as that.
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by oradba69 View Post
    Really?
    Yes, really. When it comes to some technical abilities, it's not surprising that he gets called a "dom ####" or an "idiot". I also had a run-in with him many moons ago about his maps, and the coordinates on them, pointing out that some were over a 1000km off and were actually in the Atlantic ocean. I was curtly told that I did not know what I was talking about.

    But you can't call him the above terms when it comes to his business model - he manages to make a good living, in spite of his technical shortcomings. This thread alone has earned him quite a few clicks on his video.
    Mike Lauterbach

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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeml View Post
    Yes, really. When it comes to some technical abilities, it's not surprising that he gets called a "dom ####" or an "idiot". I also had a run-in with him many moons ago about his maps, and the coordinates on them, pointing out that some were over a 1000km off and were actually in the Atlantic ocean. I was curtly told that I did not know what I was talking about.

    But you can't call him the above terms when it comes to his business model - he manages to make a good living, in spite of his technical shortcomings. This thread alone has earned him quite a few clicks on his video.
    HAHAHA So it was you! He has a video about you, one of his 'story time' videos. I think you should watch it, could give you some closure on your life seeing it bothered you so much.
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon93 View Post
    HAHAHA So it was you! He has a video about you, one of his 'story time' videos. I think you should watch it, could give you some closure on your life seeing it bothered you so much.
    LOL, I will that a miss, thanks.
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  14. #73
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeml View Post
    Yes, really.
    OK, maybe I was just raised differently since I dont call people names when I disagree with them.
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeml View Post
    Yes, really. When it comes to some technical abilities, it's not surprising that he gets called a "dom ####" or an "idiot". I also had a run-in with him many moons ago about his maps, and the coordinates on them, pointing out that some were over a 1000km off and were actually in the Atlantic ocean. I was curtly told that I did not know what I was talking about.

    But you can't call him the above terms when it comes to his business model - he manages to make a good living, in spite of his technical shortcomings. This thread alone has earned him quite a few clicks on his video.
    Ha ha Mike, I had one of those maps when we visited the Kaokoveld some years back. Much better to rely on Jan Joubert's very kindly shared notes.

    But to inter coolers; my (very) old stand by's used to be books by Ron Fournier and Jeff Hibbard where positioning ducting and wind direction was covered (as I recall - can't put my hand on them at the minute). But now the numbers should be able to be obtained. I have worked with a heat exchanger designer and builder who has proprietary software that will evaluate the efficiency of just about any set of conditions. It is a system where there are too many unknowns to solve directly so a few assumptions must be made and the output evaluated but it is very interesting. Be interesting to put the scenarios through such a programme.

  16. #75
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by RossJ View Post
    Fyko


    Somewhere in my brain the formula for power (kw) is divided by intake temp squared squared


    Thks for your input on this matter
    I see I didn't adequately address your question about power.

    Power (watts) is given by force (newtons) over a distance (metres) divide by time (per second).

    To find your engine's power you need the newtons (derived from the torque figure) times the distance travelled in one second. The distance travelled is given by 2pi metres (the distance of one revolution) times the number of revolutions per second (RPM/60)

    Don't get bamboozled by the similarity for the terms of work (force applied over a distance travelled) and torque which is force applied to the end of an arm 1 metre long set perpendicular to an axle without any distance travelled. Torque is a rotary force and not work or power. Be sure to clearly understand this. In Afrikaans it gets even worse, torque is call 'wringkrag' which implies some kind of power while it's neither work nor power but a force. Big difference.

    To plug in some numbers:

    Say the torque is 300nm. The RPM is 3000 or 50 turns per second.

    Therefore the distance traveled is 50 (turns) x 2 x pi = 50 x 6.3 = 315 metres.

    The work done is 300 newtons x 315 metres 94,500 joules. And it wa done in 1 second.

    Since 1 joule of work done in 1 second equals one watt, the power output of your engine at this RPM is 94,5 Kw.

    The torque figure will vary with change of RPM since the efficiency of the engine will vary, but if you apply what you see on a torque curve to this calculation for various RPM figures you'll see that you predict the power curve for the same engine quite accurately. The one is derived directly from the other. Try it.

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  18. #76
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyko View Post
    I see I didn't adequately address your question about power.


    Try it.
    Thanks. It works exactly on the graphs for my Hilux.

    My mechanic described torque in terms of a corkscrew driving through a wall. I think I need to change mechanics.

    Please explain what the big deal is about the induction air from the turbo being a too hot.

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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Cool air is denser = more oxygen =more power due to better combustion when there is more oxygen to enhance the combustion process.

    When the ait is too hot, density is poor.
    Last edited by mvcoller; 2020/02/14 at 09:32 AM.
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Agreed. Cooler air(denser) allows more air to be squeezed in to the same volume(cylinder). More air equals more fuel(the fuel/air ratio remains the same). More air and fuel equals more power.

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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    The turbo heat up the air on the intake side, and makes the turbo less effective as explained above, being the primary reason for introducing an intercooler.
    Last edited by JLK; 2020/02/14 at 09:57 AM.
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    Default Re: ASPW on intercoolers....

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonT View Post
    Thanks. It works exactly on the graphs for my Hilux.

    My mechanic described torque in terms of a corkscrew driving through a wall. I think I need to change mechanics.

    Please explain what the big deal is about the induction air from the turbo being a too hot.
    Imagine a straight length of pipe. (Any diameter).

    The right hand end of the pipe is blocked off, in the left hand side there's a piston with its face 1 metre from the blockage. Inside the pipe there's air at ambient atmospheric pressure (1000mB) and at ambient temperature of 300K (27⁰C). (If you don't understand the Kelvin scale look it up now.)

    Now push the piston into the pipe so its face is 500mm from the blockage. The density of the air has now been doubled since the same air occupies half the previous space. Measure the temperature of the air in the pipe - it has heated to an incredible 600K (327⁰C). Measure the pressure - it has risen to an astounding 4000mB. How can this happen?
    The heat you feel when you touch something is actually the excitation of the molecules of the substance vibrating with their energy. Molecules at 0K do not vibrate - they have no energy. Add some energy and you have molecules vibrating and bashing into each other. Add more energy and they vibrate and bash into each other some more. Squeeze them together into a smaller space and they also bash into each other some more, just as if energy had been added. When you compress air it gets hotter, not because you added energy, but because you made the space smaller and the air molecules behave just like they've had energy added.
    When you compressed the air in the pipe the pressure doubled from its density being doubled, but then the temperature doubled so the pressure doubled again from that, to a fourfold increase in pressure.

    The situation in the pipe above will never happen because the turbo charger isn't allowed to compress beyond 2000mB absolute, or 1000mB above ambient. So now let the piston go back to where it was - the temperature is back to 300K and the pressure at ambient of 1000mB (sea level).

    Now push the piston towards the blockage slowly while monitoring the pressure gauge. When the pressure reaches 2000mB (1000mB above ambient) stop. Measure the air temperature - it has risen to 420K (147⁰C), look where the piston is, it's not even half way to the500mm point. Why?

    The pressure of 2000mB (1 Bar of boost) is the product of air density and air temperature, and the pressure has just doubled (x2). The square root of 2 is 1.414. So if the density increased by 41.4%, and the temperature increased by 41.4% you would have your doubling of the pressure, as measured.
    Now let the pipe above cool naturally. The air pressure inside the pipe drops, allowing you to push the piston some more. Wait again till the pipe cools and push some more. Keep doing this until the piston face reaches to 500mm mark and the air in the pipe cools back to ambient. Measure the air pressure in the pipe - it reads 2000mB (1 Bar of boost). The density is now double that of ambient, the temperature is at ambient, and the turbo had boosted to 1 Bar. Perfect.
    Why perfect? Because the temperature is at ambient. Anything above ambient means you don't get twice the density - and density is where you get the capacity to burn more fuel and release more engine power.
    But it is impossible for an intercooler to cool induction air all the way to ambient. Why? Just look at the numbers.
    The engine is 4-stroke 2.5L diesel @ 2800 RPM, that's 46.6 turns per second. Round off to 46.
    Each turn sweeps 1,25 litres (2500/2). That's 58 litres of air per second that it eats. Since this air is supposedly been doubled in density by the turbo/intercooler it would have started as 58 x 2 = 116 litres of ambient air passing through the air filter. Round that back 100 litres per second since there are losses. In the turbo charger that air would have been heated by 300K (300K to 600K). Since the heat capacity of air at sea level is 1 Joule per gram of air per K of temperature, each litre of air, which weighs roughly a gram, now owns 300 joules of heat energy it need to get rid of. At an airflow of 100 litres per second, times 300 joules per litre we now have to lose a mighty 30,000 Joules per second. Which is equal to 30kw. Understand that this energy wasn't added by the engine of the turbo, it was already present in the air at the start. (The turbo only saps about 2.5kw from the engine power to compress the air.)
    If you multiply and subtract to get the total area of your intercooler's cooling airflow ducts available to the outside air when the vehicle moves forward you'll get a figure of about 260 sq/cm. At a forward speed of 120km/h or 3,333 cm/sec means that potentially 858 litres of air per second can be cooling the i/c's vanes. Then if each of those litres of air would be kind enough to accept just 38 Joules, the induction air within the i/c would be fully cooled and the outside air cooling the i/c would be heated by 38⁰C, which is about the same as you find behind the radiator. Not too much to ask.

    Sadly, total transfer of this energy can never take place because the rate of transfer slows as the energy gradient between the coolant and the cooled decreases, so you always sit with induction air that is 30⁰C higher than ambient. Or more if conditions deteriorate, such as if your forward speed drops. So the 100% efficient intercooler is not possible.

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