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  1. #21
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    Quote Originally Posted by hatjohan View Post
    I really am not trying to be funny or nasty - I am trying to learn something.

    So can some one knowledgeable please respond?

    Anyway, I am asking for a friend
    Modern petrol vehicles have CAT or catalytic converter.

    Modern Diesel vehicles have a CAT or catalytic converter as well as a DPF or diesel particulate filter, some have a CAT but not a DPF but to my knowledge there are no diesel cars that have a DPF but not a CAT.

    The 2 devices have different effects on the exhaust gas, the CAT houses a catalyst to change some of the harmful emissions into less harmful emissions, the DPF filters out particulates (eg. soot and others) that are harmful to humans. There is a lot of data available on what they do and how they work, but the above is a brief summary.

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  2. #22
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    Quote Originally Posted by hatjohan View Post
    I really am not trying to be funny or nasty - I am trying to learn something.

    So can some one knowledgeable please respond?

    Anyway, I am asking for a friend

    Lets talk Science in this regard.

    My Technical opinion. (Im no Sheldon Cooper, but after a lenghty research,this is my conclusion)

    Diesels have a DPF and not a catalytic converter. The function of the CAT is taken over by the EGR valve by rerouting the exhaust gasses BACK into the engine to reburn the harmfull gasses.(CO2) And then the DPF catches the soot and particals that is a byproduct from reburning the harmfull gasses.

    Carbon Dioxide = CO2, so after the big bang in the chamber, the O2 is burned of and the "C" - Carbon remains as a solid. Hence the DPF being a filter to catch this. Carbon cannot exist as a gas itself without 2 molecules of oxygen.

    Petrol cars produce H20 and CO2, a Catalytic Converter has got the paladuim in it that can catch CO2 gasses. (By catch I mean conver the harmfull gasses to better gasses, but even then the "C" element must remain somewhere. Only the "O" removed and put with the other "H" to make H2O.

    I might be wrong, but I might be right.

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    Last edited by Vormoto; 2020/02/03 at 03:19 PM.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    As of right now, emissions controls on most Diesel engines are comprised of 4 stages; EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation), DPF (Diesel Particulate Filtration), DOC (Diesel Oxidization Catalyst) and SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction).
    The two portions that could be considered catalytic coverters, obvious by the names, are the DOC and the SCR. They can be considered such due to their use of catalysts to facilitate chemical reactions in reducing vehicle emissions.
    The Diesel Oxidization Catalyst works almost identical to gasoline engines. They use metals as a catalyst to reduce carbon monoxide to carbon and water, as well as break down volatile chemicals such as hydrocarbons and other byproducts to less harmful chemicals.
    The SCR (also referred to as DEF because of its use of Diesel Exhaust Fluid) uses an ammonia based catalyst (DEF) to breakdown Oxides of Nitrogen (NOx) emissions of vehicles and converts them into Nitrogen and Oxygen.
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  4. #24
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    The question I have is, considering how life threatening diesel particulate is, why do manufacturers insist on ripping us off when itís time to replace DPF and Catalytic converters? At the least they should let us trade our old parts for new ones. Nothing is wrong with the rare metals in the old parts. The manufacturers are to blame when it comes to encouraging non compliance behavior.

    This nonsense has in effect put the final nail in the coffin for Diesel in Europe and the the world.
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  5. #25
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    Quote Originally Posted by Francois Theron View Post
    It is NOT the same thing! A catalytic converter changes the chemical composition of the exhaust gas whereas a DPF traps physical particles. Some diesel vehicles are fitted with both a catalytic converter and a DPF.
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  6. #26
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    Quote Originally Posted by PTsalas View Post
    The question I have is, considering how life threatening diesel particulate is, why do manufacturers insist on ripping us off when itís time to replace DPF and Catalytic converters? At the least they should let us trade our old parts for new ones. Nothing is wrong with the rare metals in the old parts. The manufacturers are to blame when it comes to encouraging non compliance behavior.

    This nonsense has in effect put the final nail in the coffin for Diesel in Europe and the the world.


    I agree, but my thinking is as such. If they reduce the price of a CAT or DPF or whatever, that means the value of the precious metals inside the Monolith has to be de-valuated. And that same metals are being used on other applications such as Jewerly and Medical. (My wife has a Paladuim ring)

    So,in short, the "valuable" aspect of the metals will be lost, and people wont make money from it. Same as with diamonds, it not scarce, but because De Beers called dips on it years ago, they can control the price.

    It all about the money hungry economy.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    Quote Originally Posted by PTsalas View Post
    The question I have is, considering how life threatening diesel particulate is, why do manufacturers insist on ripping us off when itís time to replace DPF and Catalytic converters? At the least they should let us trade our old parts for new ones. Nothing is wrong with the rare metals in the old parts. The manufacturers are to blame when it comes to encouraging non compliance behavior.

    This nonsense has in effect put the final nail in the coffin for Diesel in Europe and the the world.
    I agree. But money speaks louder than ethics. What VW and other brands have done when it comes to emission testing etc. is criminal. Capitilising on people's health is unacceptable. One day EVs will be the norm and what we will need to worry about is battery disposal and Bob knows what. But ultimately we are getting better and better, slowly. Also, aren't there people selling after market DPFs? I know that in Australia it's a big business now. People are importing them from China after the whole GD6 debacle.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    Quote Originally Posted by Schambies View Post
    I agree. But money speaks louder than ethics. What VW and other brands have done when it comes to emission testing etc. is criminal. Capitilising on people's health is unacceptable. One day EVs will be the norm and what we will need to worry about is battery disposal and Bob knows what. But ultimately we are getting better and better, slowly. Also, aren't there people selling after market DPFs? I know that in Australia it's a big business now. People are importing them from China after the whole GD6 debacle.
    Forgive my ignorance, what GD6 debacle? Asking because I have a GD6
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  9. #29
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    Quote Originally Posted by AK77 View Post
    Forgive my ignorance, what GD6 debacle? Asking because I have a GD6
    It does not affect our SA spec since they don't have a DPF, but in a few countries that strictly adhere to Euro 6 emissions regulations (as we all should) they have a DPF fitted before the CAT. They block in town driving due to sub-optimal burn-off temperatures leading to limp mode. The aussies opened a class action against Toyota.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=janbEkbuFQ8

    The Aussies also complain about a poorly designed air-filter housing on the GD6 2.8. Not sure we have this issue either?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeYo-ER4nCM

  10. #30
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    Quote Originally Posted by Vormoto View Post
    I agree, but my thinking is as such. If they reduce the price of a CAT or DPF or whatever, that means the value of the precious metals inside the Monolith has to be de-valuated. And that same metals are being used on other applications such as Jewerly and Medical. (My wife has a Paladuim ring)

    So,in short, the "valuable" aspect of the metals will be lost, and people wont make money from it. Same as with diamonds, it not scarce, but because De Beers called dips on it years ago, they can control the price.

    It all about the money hungry economy.
    Hence why I suggested trading in your blocked cat / DPF as they can still recycle the precious metals in the old one to make new ones. Besides the price of the metal, I still think dealers are ripping us off on this crucial part. My boss was quoted R80k for replacement cats on his Jag diesel. Do they think people will comply when they charge that ? Itís criminal.
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    Quote Originally Posted by Schambies View Post
    I agree. But money speaks louder than ethics. What VW and other brands have done when it comes to emission testing etc. is criminal. Capitilising on people's health is unacceptable. One day EVs will be the norm and what we will need to worry about is battery disposal and Bob knows what. But ultimately we are getting better and better, slowly. Also, aren't there people selling after market DPFs? I know that in Australia it's a big business now. People are importing them from China after the whole GD6 debacle.
    I remember Audi was secretly gassing monkeys with diesel particulate to prove that it wasnít harmful to humans. That behavior grinds my gears and put me off anything the Audi brand sells. VW with dieselgate has single handedly killed the future of diesel.
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  12. #32
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    Quote Originally Posted by PTsalas View Post
    Hence why I suggested trading in your blocked cat / DPF as they can still recycle the precious metals in the old one to make new ones. Besides the price of the metal, I still think dealers are ripping us off on this crucial part. My boss was quoted R80k for replacement cats on his Jag diesel. Do they think people will comply when they charge that ? Itís criminal.
    The fact that the costs are so huge will drive more and more people to do a delete and re tune thier ecu's instead of replacing them when they go bad.
    Seeing that emmisions is not checked here in SA, it will almost never be picked up. They almost never break or go bad during the warrenty period.

    On that note. Seeing that the temperature had stopped to a manageble 25deg now, im going to check my car to see if there is another box on my Tuna that might contaib a "thing"

  13. #33
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    Platinum, Palladium and Rhodium are all 3 used extensively in making catalytic converters, and all 3 are exceedingly rare in the earth's crust (much more rare than gold for example). These metals have high melting points as well so the cost of the converters doesn't surprise me.

    South Africa is listed as one of the major producers of all 3, so with the Rand in the toilet at least we are doing out part to keep cost down and save the planet

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  14. #34
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    Quote Originally Posted by PTsalas View Post
    I remember Audi was secretly gassing monkeys with diesel particulate to prove that it wasnít harmful to humans. That behavior grinds my gears and put me off anything the Audi brand sells. VW with dieselgate has single handedly killed the future of diesel.
    I had no idea... That is absolutely insane. They even lied and cheated in the test itself! Not only did they harm the monkeys but they rigged the experiment altogether to their own benefit.. I have no words... https://www.google.com/amp/s/api.nat...-auto-industry

  15. #35
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    Quote Originally Posted by Commander View Post
    Platinum, Palladium and Rhodium are all 3 used extensively in making catalytic converters, and all 3 are exceedingly rare in the earth's crust (much more rare than gold for example). These metals have high melting points as well so the cost of the converters doesn't surprise me.

    South Africa is listed as one of the major producers of all 3, so with the Rand in the toilet at least we are doing out part to keep cost down and save the planet
    This leads to the next question, how much pollution is created in the manufacturing process of these DPF's or CATS, is this more than the emissions of a vehicle in the lifetime of the vehicle or less, considering that they blow the gunk out on freeways anyways.. just a thought.
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  16. #36
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweisviljoen View Post
    This leads to the next question, how much pollution is created in the manufacturing process of these DPF's or CATS, is this more than the emissions of a vehicle in the lifetime of the vehicle or less, considering that they blow the gunk out on freeways anyways.. just a thought.
    Good question, worrying that the same applies to mining of lithium for your green Tesla batteries too. It seems there is no winning.

    Only thing is Iíd prefer if you still have your cat in place when you drive your Fortuner past my house. Thank you
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  17. #37
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweisviljoen View Post
    This leads to the next question, how much pollution is created in the manufacturing process of these DPF's or CATS, is this more than the emissions of a vehicle in the lifetime of the vehicle or less, considering that they blow the gunk out on freeways anyways.. just a thought.
    Regarding the mining of the raw materials I am also worried about that, and that is usually the part that gets left off of any green agenda as it doesn't suit the narrative.

    Regarding the catalytic converter the chemicals get converted to less harmful chemicals (up to 95%) so it isn't simply a case of "blowing it out on the highway away from people" the increased temperature in the exhaust allows for buildup top be burned off. I would recommend a quick google on how the stuff works, I wouldn't pretend to be an expert, but there is a lot of misconceptions on this thread.

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  18. #38
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    To add to the aforementioned argument of having to produce catalytic convertors or DPF's. I wonder what else is damaged in vehicles when they have blocked cats and DPF's and those parts also needs to be replaced.

    Ive read blocked cats can cause excessive backpressure and blow turbos. Also they often lead to worse fuel consumption once blocked.

    Is the environmental cost of mining for rare earth metals + installing the cat /dpf + adding complexity and more sensors to vehicles ( more resources, time and money needed) + increasing fuel consumption in the long run + causing possible failure to other components that also require resources to manufacture and ship worth it all. I think a comprehensive study should be conducted before anyone can start pointing fingers but in my view longevity of a product may outweigh modern temporary products in terms of environmental cost.

    Just a thought but if you take a land cruiser 79 v6 petrol that will easily last for 25+ years and 500 000+ Km's and compare it to a small electric vehicle that needs to be disposed of after say 10 years and 250 000km. You would need to compare the environmental footprint of two such cars against one cruiser. Also the cruiser will still be sold for parts and metal melted down to manufacture something else. Plastic loses a lot of weight and is a lot more complex to recycle.

    In summary the guy driving the old gas guzzling cruiser, defender, patrol hilux or whatever for 20 years might be more environmentally friendly than the guy purchasing the latest and greatest eco car every few years.
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  19. #39
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    Quote Originally Posted by pjf110 View Post
    To add to the aforementioned argument of having to produce catalytic convertors or DPF's. I wonder what else is damaged in vehicles when they have blocked cats and DPF's and those parts also needs to be replaced.

    Ive read blocked cats can cause excessive backpressure and blow turbos. Also they often lead to worse fuel consumption once blocked.

    Is the environmental cost of mining for rare earth metals + installing the cat /dpf + adding complexity and more sensors to vehicles ( more resources, time and money needed) + increasing fuel consumption in the long run + causing possible failure to other components that also require resources to manufacture and ship worth it all. I think a comprehensive study should be conducted before anyone can start pointing fingers but in my view longevity of a product may outweigh modern temporary products in terms of environmental cost.

    Just a thought but if you take a land cruiser 79 v6 petrol that will easily last for 25+ years and 500 000+ Km's and compare it to a small electric vehicle that needs to be disposed of after say 10 years and 250 000km. You would need to compare the environmental footprint of two such cars against one cruiser. Also the cruiser will still be sold for parts and metal melted down to manufacture something else. Plastic loses a lot of weight and is a lot more complex to recycle.

    In summary the guy driving the old gas guzzling cruiser, defender, patrol hilux or whatever for 20 years might be more environmentally friendly than the guy purchasing the latest and greatest eco car every few years.
    The difference is that you donít want gas guzzlers in the city due to the localized pollution. Especially when the city is gridlocked in traffic.
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  20. #40
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    Default Re: I did it, I removed my DPF

    You removed the cat....if the vehicle had a dpf and you removed it...the car will be stuck in limp mode..you will need to get the dpf coded off in the software...
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