Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 50
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Bethlehem
    Age
    54
    Posts
    10,377
    Thanked: 6227

    Default Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    I'm gonna try make this as short as possible.

    If a Person gets a Skippers Licence at 16, can a Boat Club enforce a rule that such Person is not allowed to use the facilities if he/she is not 18??

    I'm talking launching a boat, and basically just hanging out at (his family's) a boathouse??

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Nelspruit
    Age
    38
    Posts
    906
    Thanked: 977

    Default Re: Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    Maybe the fascilities include a bar. And that makes it difficult in terms of a liquor license. Restaurants have a license to allow under 18s to be there, but not consume alcohol. Bars no under 18s are allowed. This used to be the case as I understood it years ago when I worked in a bar, and the cops rocked up.
    20 Ranger Supercab 2.2 auto XLS 4x4
    18 Ranger Double cab Tdci (Swambo)
    12 Conqueror courage

    Dawie van der Merwe
    If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.
    A goal without a plan is just a dream.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Centurion
    Age
    55
    Posts
    2,307
    Thanked: 919

    Default Re: Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    Of course. What is the purpose of a *rule* if one can't enforce it?

    I would think (boat) clubs can make rules as they as they please by following the articles as set out by their constitution etc? (Thus by having a license does not override the club's rules)
    Why not engage them, or attend their AGM to table a motion to amend the rule?

    It probably comes down to liabilities which make the committee and ultimately the chairman responsible for any incidents / accidents at the club. Because, you know, when something happens is the judge going to have sympathy with the committee if it can be proven that their rules were not really rules, but more 'optional guidelines'?

    (This was one of the issues we dealt with when I was committee member and later chairman of an XYZ club, and the lesson I have learned was to stick to the published rules and club's constitution no matter what. It keeps it factual and non-personal. Rather get the rule changed officially. It opens a can of worms which the committee can't defend if person abc now come and say , 'jaaa but you allowed kosie to do this and that, why can't I now do this and that? A sure way to undermine the integrity of the committee and the club)
    Last edited by PieterOos; 2020/01/30 at 07:58 AM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Nelspruit
    Age
    38
    Posts
    906
    Thanked: 977

    Default Re: Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    Quote Originally Posted by PieterOos View Post
    Of course!
    I would think (boat) clubs can make rules as they as they please by following the articles as set out by their constitution etc? (Thus by having a license does not override the club's rules)
    Why not engage them, or attend their AGM to table a motion to amend the rule?

    It probably comes down to liabilities which make the committee and ultimately the chairman responsible for any incidents / accidents at at the club. Because, you know, when something happens is the judge going to have sympathy with the committee if it can be proven that their rules were not really rules, but more 'optional guidelines'?

    (This was one of the issues we dealt with when I was committee member and later chairman of an XYZ club, and the lesson I have learned was to stick to the published rules and club's constitution no matter what. It keeps it factual and non-personal. Rather get the rule changed officially. It opens a can of worms which the committee can't defend if person abc now come and say , 'jaaa but you allowed kosie to do this and that, why can't I now do this and that?
    good point. Thats why I dont do clubs anymore.
    20 Ranger Supercab 2.2 auto XLS 4x4
    18 Ranger Double cab Tdci (Swambo)
    12 Conqueror courage

    Dawie van der Merwe
    If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.
    A goal without a plan is just a dream.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Alberton
    Age
    61
    Posts
    1,060
    Thanked: 2224

    Default Re: Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    How about approaching the rules committee for a special dispensation regarding your son. Work with them.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Earth
    Age
    43
    Posts
    2,780
    Thanked: 1954

    Default Re: Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    There could be history there as well

    For all you know a couple of years ago a bunch of people went there and got drunk and some of the ladies or men started "exposing" themselves while in their drunk state

    But there was a parent with a bunch of kids who were now subjected to this perverse nudity and they then ended up taking the club to court for this severe incident

    So they added the sign so that if something like that happens again then they can point to the sign and point blank say the parent or guardian was not following the prescribed rules so it is their own fault

    Which would prevent them from being nailed in that manner

    And they could technically ignore it further because they could state that due to the sign they assumed everyone using the facility is over the legal age

    Chat with them but other option is if your kid is 16 then it is less likely for this to be checked
    Last edited by Veneficus; 2020/01/30 at 07:58 AM.
    2007 Subaru Forester 2.5XT
    Forester nutter here so watch out

    Please remember that I think I'm funny
    (most people don't agree)
    thus take 90% of what I post with 2 pinches of salt

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Bethlehem
    Age
    54
    Posts
    10,377
    Thanked: 6227

    Default Re: Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    Thanks so far.

    1) No liquor sold there, so the Liquor thing is "sorted".

    2) There are 25 Owners

    3) This "no under 18's without supervision" Rule is an old one, I'd say about 12/15 years old.

    4) Most of us feel that that Rule should be "slackened" a bit, say to the Age of 16.

    I'll get the Constitution shortly and see what's in there, but AFAIK this was a decision taken by the Committee as a sort of Amendment.

    Questions:

    1) If Parent(s) sign a sort of Indemnity, is that necessary and enforceable?

    2) IF something tragic happens like a drowning, is the Club responsible or the Parent(s) (see 1 above)?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Ruimsig
    Age
    57
    Posts
    6,785
    Thanked: 28726

    Default Re: Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    Yes they can enforce a rule. Providing the rules do not contravene the laws of the land.

    However, rules and regulations should be non-discriminatory which includes age discrimination. I would think they have this rule for a reason and perhaps you need to find out why.
    Last edited by Estee; 2020/01/30 at 09:03 AM.
    Estee = S T = Sean Towlson

    Hummer H3 V8

    #itsnotaboutME

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Centurion
    Age
    55
    Posts
    2,307
    Thanked: 919

    Default Re: Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    Can't comment on the above (post # 7) but something else leading from your questions - what is the situation if a (16y old) skipper took one of his friends (or friends' dad) out on the boat and a 'worst case' scenario happens? (I have seen how quickly 'friendship' can evaporate.)

    My understanding is that it could get to a claim against your estate (for loss of income and support) as an indemnity can't waive the rights of the deceased person's next-of-kin (naasbestaandes). Open for correction though. Further, I *think* if negligence can be proven where the club is involved, the club could also be in trouble. (Is non-enforcement of rules negligence?)

    Also what about injury and damage to third parties / persons/ property etc?

    So Petri - it is perhaps not a stuck-up club, there are huge possible issues around this.
    Last edited by PieterOos; 2020/01/30 at 09:16 AM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Ruimsig
    Age
    57
    Posts
    6,785
    Thanked: 28726

    Default Re: Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    It could be in line with the Age of Majority in SA, for some legal reasons.

    http://conflictoflaws.net/2007/age-o...h-african-law/

    Entry into Force of Parts of the Children’s Act in South Africa

    by THALIA KRUGER on AUGUST 14, 2007

    1) Age of majority now 18 in South African law
    The entry into force of certain sections of the Children’s Act No 38 of 2005 on 1 July 2007 has changed the age of majority in South African law. It is now 18, while it was 21 before (Sec 17 of the Act). This is relevant for the many young South Africans living abroad, but still domiciled in South Africa or still South African citizens. If the conflict of law rule of the country in which they live points to domicile or nationality for the determination of personal status, these people above 18 will now have full contractual capacity in accordance with South African law.
    2) Standard for “best interests of a child”
    The Children’s Act also contains a (lengthy) provision on the standard for “best interests of the child”, a concept frequently used in international protection of children, specifically adoption. Such definition is of particular importance in a region which has a growing number of Aids orphans, and where international adoption might increase in future.
    Section 7 of the Act states:
    (1) Whenever a provision of this Act requires the best interests of the child standard to be applied, the following factors must be taken into consideration where relevant, namely-
    (a) the nature of the personal relationship between-
    (i) the child and the parents, or any specific parent; and
    (ii) the child and any other care-giver or person relevant in those circumstances;
    (b) the attitude of the parents, or any specific parent, towards-
    (i) the child; and
    (ii) the exercise of parental responsibilities and rights in respect of the child;
    (c) the capacity of the parents, or any specific parent, or of any other care-giver or person, to provide for the needs of the child, including emotional and intellectual needs;
    (d) the likely effect on the child of any change in the child’s circumstances, including the likely effect on the child of any separation from-
    (i) both or either of the parents; or
    (ii) any brother or sister or other child, or any other care-giver or person, with whom the child has been living;
    (e) the practical difficulty and expense of a child having contact with the parents, or any specific parent, and whether that difficulty or expense will substantially affect the child’s right to maintain personal relations and direct contact with the parents, or any specific parent, on a regular basis;
    (f) the need for the child-
    (i) to remain in the care of his or her parent, family and extended family; and
    (ii) to maintain a connection with his or her family, extended family, culture or tradition;
    (g) the child’s-
    (i) age, maturity and stage of development;
    (ii) gender;
    (iii) background; and
    (iv) any other relevant characteristics of the child;
    (h) the child’s physical and emotional security and his or her intellectual, emotional, social and cultural development;
    (i) any disability that a child may have;
    (j) any chronic illness from which a child may suffer;
    (k) the need for a child to be brought up within a stable family environment and, where this is not possible, in an environment resembling as closely as possible a caring family environment;
    (l) the need to protect the child from any physical or psychological harm that may be caused by-
    (i) subjecting the child to maltreatment, abuse, neglect, exploitation or degradation or exposing the child to violence or exploitation or other harmful behaviour; or
    (ii) exposing the child to maltreatment, abuse, degradation, ill-treatment, violence or harmful behaviour towards another person;
    (m) any family violence involving the child or a family member of the child; and
    (n) which action or decision would avoid or minimise further legal or administrative proceedings in relation to the child.
    (2) In this section ‘parent’ includes any person who has parental responsibilities and rights in respect of a child.


    Next post: South African Conflict of Law Rule for
    Estee = S T = Sean Towlson

    Hummer H3 V8

    #itsnotaboutME

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Richardsbay
    Age
    43
    Posts
    195
    Thanked: 147

    Default Re: Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    Just to add, if your kid should drown, what would the legality be?

    As he is still a minor in that perspective?

    I am just trying to understand why they maybe have that rule in first place.

    Having a skipper license lets him operate a craft, it does not make him a adult !

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Frikstervx200 For This Useful Post:

    PRA

  13. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Location
    Pretoria
    Posts
    7
    Thanked: 0

    Default Re: Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    Just my 5c's how can he launch a boat if he is not legally allowed to drive yet?

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Earth
    Age
    43
    Posts
    2,780
    Thanked: 1954

    Default Re: Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    Quote Originally Posted by Wp! View Post
    Just my 5c's how can he launch a boat if he is not legally allowed to drive yet?
    He is in the boat and someone else is driving the car

    Just because the legal driving age is 18 does not mean it applies to everything

    You can get boat license at 16 and pilots license at 15
    2007 Subaru Forester 2.5XT
    Forester nutter here so watch out

    Please remember that I think I'm funny
    (most people don't agree)
    thus take 90% of what I post with 2 pinches of salt

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Centurion
    Age
    55
    Posts
    2,307
    Thanked: 919

    Default Re: Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    Quote Originally Posted by Wp! View Post
    Just my 5c's how can he launch a boat if he is not legally allowed to drive yet?
    Cycle to boat club where boat is stored on launching rails at the family's boat house eg?
    Last edited by PieterOos; 2020/01/30 at 10:05 AM.

  16. #15
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Hillcrest
    Age
    65
    Posts
    19,735
    Thanked: 9291

    Default Re: Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    Quote Originally Posted by Frikstervx200 View Post
    Just to add, if your kid should drown, what would the legality be?

    As he is still a minor in that perspective?

    I am just trying to understand why they maybe have that rule in first place.

    Having a skipper license lets him operate a craft, it does not make him a adult !
    I strongly suspect that law is an old law from a few years ago before SAMSA introduced formal skippers licenses for recreational boating on inland protected waters.

    In the absence of any public legal enforcement the club had to have their own in place.

    I spent many years in boating and on committees, ending my tenure as the Commodore of a very well known and old established Yacht Club in Durban. Believe me, trying to weed out all the 50 year old crap from the constitution and Club Rules was a never ending uphill battle.
    Cheers

    ZS5KAD - PROFFESIONAL DUMBASS
    3 Land Rover V8's
    NA - TwinTurbo - SuperCharged
    A V6 and an inline 4

    If you fly or drive to an anti-Fracking meeting, you have no business being there and you wont get my ear......

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Location
    Pretoria
    Posts
    7
    Thanked: 0

    Default Re: Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    Quote Originally Posted by Veneficus View Post
    He is in the boat and someone else is driving the car

    Just because the legal driving age is 18 does not mean it applies to everything

    You can get boat license at 16 and pilots license at 15
    I should have been more clear, I am quite aware of the ages. I meant that should he launch a boat in the traditional way, he would need to drive a car. Being 16 he would not legally be allowed to drive a car.

    Cycle to boat club where boat is stored on launching rails at the family's boat house eg?

    The rails makes sense, but if there is someone else driving the car (assuming they are 18 or older) then we wouldn't have this issue in the first place.

    Anyway, I hope the op can convince the boatclub otherwise.

  18. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Rustenburg
    Age
    34
    Posts
    1,237
    Thanked: 975

    Default Re: Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    Quote Originally Posted by PieterOos View Post
    Can't comment on the above (post # 7) but something else leading from your questions - what is the situation if a (16y old) skipper took one of his friends (or friends' dad) out on the boat and a 'worst case' scenario happens? (I have seen how quickly 'friendship' can evaporate.)

    My understanding is that it could get to a claim against your estate (for loss of income and support) as an indemnity can't waive the rights of the deceased person's next-of-kin (naasbestaandes). Open for correction though. Further, I *think* if negligence can be proven where the club is involved, the club could also be in trouble. (Is non-enforcement of rules negligence?)

    Also what about injury and damage to third parties / persons/ property etc?

    So Petri - it is perhaps not a stuck-up club, there are huge possible issues around this.

    I don’t see how any claim could arise against your estate in the case of a boating accident, granted the skipper in charge is deemed competent. You can have a skippers at 16, therefore 100 legally competent to operate the craft for pleasure purposes. (You need to be 18 to convert to a commercial skippers ticket). So as long as he isn’t charging them money to take them out, there is no legal issue there.

    The club can enforce their age restriction on accessing the clubs premises I guess, but on the water, which belongs to the state, it’s the SAMSA small craft regulations that rule. The club only control the access to the water.

  19. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Rustenburg
    Age
    34
    Posts
    1,237
    Thanked: 975

    Default Re: Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    Quote Originally Posted by Wp! View Post
    I should have been more clear, I am quite aware of the ages. I meant that should he launch a boat in the traditional way, he would need to drive a car. Being 16 he would not legally be allowed to drive a car.

    Cycle to boat club where boat is stored on launching rails at the family's boat house eg?

    The rails makes sense, but if there is someone else driving the car (assuming they are 18 or older) then we wouldn't have this issue in the first place.

    Anyway, I hope the op can convince the boatclub otherwise.
    legalities are funny thing..... he isn’t allowed to drive a car on a public roadWay. On the clubs premises it again comes down to the clubs rules (assuming private property) but I guess based on the over 18 rule, they wouldn’t be too keen on a 16 year old launching boats unsupervised either....

    then again, many clubs have a tractor and driver that launches your boats for you.
    Last edited by RPiet; 2020/01/30 at 10:17 AM.

  20. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Centurion
    Age
    55
    Posts
    2,307
    Thanked: 919

    Default Re: Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    Quote Originally Posted by RPiet View Post
    I don’t see how any claim could arise against your estate in the case of a boating accident,
    If negligence can be proven. (say e.g. if the skipper didn't check that life jackets were securely fitted and fastened, speed too fast for circumstances, not adhering to rules, etc etc?)

    See eg https://www.lyonsbriviklaw.com/servi...cident-claims/

    BOAT ACCIDENT CLAIMS

    Home/Services/Accident Claims/Boat Accident Claims

    At Malcolm Lyons & Brivik Attorneys Inc. we have vast experience in assisting victims of boating incidents. These range from skiers who are injured on lakes and dams or in the open water to victims of jet-ski accidents.

    Boating accidents must be instituted in specialized courts the rules of which are well known to members of the firm of Malcolm Lyons & Brivik Attorneys Inc.

    The damages which are recoverable:

    1. Past Medical Expenses
    2. Future Medical and Hospital Expenses;
    3. Past and Future Loss of Earning; and
    4. General Damages.
    Last edited by PieterOos; 2020/01/30 at 10:27 AM.

  21. #20
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Ruimsig
    Age
    57
    Posts
    6,785
    Thanked: 28726

    Default Re: Boat Club - No Under 18's without Supervision

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    I spent many years in boating and on committees, ending my tenure as the Commodore of a very well known and old established Yacht Club in Durban.
    The RNYC?
    Estee = S T = Sean Towlson

    Hummer H3 V8

    #itsnotaboutME

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •