TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected





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  1. #1
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    Default TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    Hi all
    Got a 2004 TD5 Defender in Aug '19 and have had an intermittent non-start / lose throttle control when hitting a bump issue since I got the vehicle.
    Must admit a lot of honeymoon emotions have been lost constantly fiddling to fix up small issues distracting one from finding the actual issue but now after months of being educated by the Landy I think I am now closer to finding the issue than ever
    Or like I tell my kids when they ask how far it is still to get to the sea: We are now closer to the sea than we were when you asked before

    The non-starting after standing over night, as in cranking and getting no reaction, was changed to starting by heating the ECU to > 30 deg C before trying again...
    This was a nice exercise to prove the hot/cold theory...
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    So the start issue mitigated we started enjoying getting "The Engelsman" awake before 10 in the mornings and doing some trips.
    But like everyone knows... Dry joints in electronics never improve so the losing throttle control, getting yellow engine light, turning car off and on while rolling and going on started getting more and more frequent. So back to research and after seeing this page https://www.ecutesting.com/common-fa...td5-ecu-fault/ I started to realise that the "magic box" that I would have never thought could have issues is now under the magnifying glass...

    With the Landy idling I can hit the seatbox and the engine stutter will occur. I can even get the nice engine light to come on if I give the box a warm ear in the right way... So alas the ECU has been taken apart and I'm looking for dry joints with a magnifying glass - biltong, I have taken your advice to heart instead of trusting someone else to lighten the wallet.
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    Please note how threateningly the yellow handled tool is placed

    I'm just curious if anyone has any thoughts on what else the issue could be except a dry-joint or joints

    Met velen dank
    Last edited by tak23bos4; 2020/01/13 at 10:44 AM. Reason: fixed picture

  2. #2
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    Default Re: TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    "knock it just right or heat to 30degrees" does indeed point to a dry joint.

    use electrofreeze spray or a mild heatgun to cool / heat specific areas of the board to try and isolate the area where the dry joint may be. no violent cooling or heating though, just a few degrees above / below ambient.

    the dry joint could be anywhere but most likely in areas with high thermal cycling or "heavy" components only held in place by solder so do a visual there first - there's endless photos of dry joints on the 'net.

    after 15 years operation it could be a number of other causes but since you can tap it and it becomes operational, off hand, the only real component failure candidate is the crystal.

    Without knowing the extent of self-testing in an ECU its difficult to say what other specific causes it may be, though from my experience of development of embedded systems (where intermittent failures were caused by no-clean-fluxes, temperature related memory wait-state issues and the like), from the symptoms you describe though my money would be on dry joint.

    good luck ! and let us know how it goes.

    ( ps: that big chip to the right of the crystal, what is it ? 68360 perhaps ? )

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    Default Re: TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    Before you dismantle the ECU - Hve you replaced the big yellow relays under the seat box? And bent their pins slightly to ensure a good fit? This is a very common issue on the TD5, especially the main relay and fuel pump relay burning out.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    Quote Originally Posted by RussellF View Post
    "knock it just right or heat to 30degrees" does indeed point to a dry joint.

    use electrofreeze spray or a mild heatgun to cool / heat specific areas of the board to try and isolate the area where the dry joint may be. no violent cooling or heating though, just a few degrees above / below ambient.

    the dry joint could be anywhere but most likely in areas with high thermal cycling or "heavy" components only held in place by solder so do a visual there first - there's endless photos of dry joints on the 'net.

    after 15 years operation it could be a number of other causes but since you can tap it and it becomes operational, off hand, the only real component failure candidate is the crystal.

    ( ps: that big chip to the right of the crystal, what is it ? 68360 perhaps ? )
    Thanks for your inputs! I really hope its not an issue internal to a component! But heating and cooling specific areas onboard while running sounds like a great idea to eliminate some points from the multitude
    I'll have to check which monster processor is in place there for you tonight

    Cheers

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    Default Re: TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    Quote Originally Posted by RPiet View Post
    Before you dismantle the ECU - Hve you replaced the big yellow relays under the seat box? And bent their pins slightly to ensure a good fit? This is a very common issue on the TD5, especially the main relay and fuel pump relay burning out.
    Hi Piet, thanks very much for the advice. I checked them but could probably do a better job. And since tapping the seat box could also move the relays there is also a good chance one of them could be the culprit.
    I'll double check them for sure!
    Regards

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    Default Re: TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    I had a bad main relay on my Td5 before. Driving through a bad bump on the road caused the engine light to illuminate for a second or two. Other symptom was the engine would randomly die when idling as if the key was turned off. Replaced the relay, bent the pins slightly and never a problem since. Contact cleaner on all the relay terminals also became part of the 10 000km service items

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    Default Re: TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    Quote Originally Posted by birkenhead View Post
    I had a bad main relay on my Td5 before. Driving through a bad bump on the road caused the engine light to illuminate for a second or two. Other symptom was the engine would randomly die when idling as if the key was turned off. Replaced the relay, bent the pins slightly and never a problem since. Contact cleaner on all the relay terminals also became part of the 10 000km service items
    Thanks for info, I'm definitely going to try open the relays to inspect the contact pins as well as the pins.
    Driving washboard roads without hiccups will be one of the qualifying criteria on a fix

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    Default Re: TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    Quote Originally Posted by tak23bos4 View Post
    Thanks for info, I'm definitely going to try open the relays to inspect the contact pins as well as the pins.
    Driving washboard roads without hiccups will be one of the qualifying criteria on a fix
    I had this same problem on my TD5. Big yellow relay under the driver seat would move slightly and that would stop fuel pump

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    Default Re: TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    Quote Originally Posted by tak23bos4 View Post
    Thanks for your inputs! I really hope its not an issue internal to a component! But heating and cooling specific areas onboard while running sounds like a great idea to eliminate some points from the multitude
    I'll have to check which monster processor is in place there for you tonight

    Cheers
    The micro is MC50335 through the conformal coating it looks like a TI chip but I could be mistaken.

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    Default Re: TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    Hi Takbos Ek gaan ook jou verdere nuus fyn dophou! Ek het 'n Defender Td5 HardTop gehad wat gereeld in "limp mode" i.e. no throttle response, ingegaan het as hy (sy?) 'n bump gestrike het. Moes ook talle male die "afsit/aansit-ding" doen!! Het op die einde, na vele uitgawes en gesukkel, hom maar verkoop, want ek is lief vir Kaokoland en daar is baie bumps daar..Laat ons asseblief weet wanneer/of jy die probleem opgespoor het!! GroetnisDanie
    Last edited by Danie Gouws; 2020/01/15 at 12:24 PM.

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    Default Re: TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    Hi Danie, ek is regtig jammer om te hoor jou Landy het dieselfde simptome gehad en dat dit gemaak het dat jy hom (of haar) verkoop het. Ek moet bieg ek het al menigte male gedink daaraan maar die ander veldvreters is of baie duurder om aan te koop, of hulle gaan baie meer brandstof koste bring, of hulle parte en werktuigkundiges bring hulle eie uitdagings (lees - om hom reggemaak te kry is soos om 'n mamma kat te melk... net nie die moeite werd nie)
    Boonop hoop ek hierdie lollery maak nie dat ek nie daardie geweste te siene kry nie - ek moet nog daar uitkom! Namaqua / Richtersveld / Witsand / Kgalagadi wag nog almal en vele meer.

    Ek sal aanhou probeer solank daar in my seile nog wind is, en ek hoop dat as ek op die probleem afkom dat dit ander mense moontlik ook eendag kan help. So vr is ek nog besig met toetslopies nadat ek die groot kapasitors en ho frekwensie transformator se soldeer laste oorgedoen het en voorlopig ("touch wood" (magtig hierdie Landy maak mens bygelowig)) wil dit voorkom of die 'limp mode' (nie die manlike probleem wat begin in middeljare nie) wat gebeur na 'n stamp in die pad dalk gekniehalter is. Net dalk - tyd sal leer. Die "non-start" is nog 'n probleem en ek begin wonder of dit nie 'n spesifieke komponent is wat besig is om te faal nie soos @RussellF genoem het. Maar daardie ondersoek sal ons ook gedoen kry hopelik hierdie naweek.

    PS. Die tak23bos4 is n sinspeel op 'n veld adres. My broer hulle het 'n dril sersant gehad met so suur vir humor wat die 'gaan haal die blaar op daardie boom' 'nee die ander een!' uitgebrei het met 'gaan soek op tak 23 in bos 4' wat niemand natuurlik enige idee gehad het oor nie, en ook te bang was om oor uit te vra - viir goeie rede natuurlik :-D
    Last edited by tak23bos4; 2020/01/15 at 01:14 PM.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    Ek sien die Engelsman loop darem, hy staan nie op sy plek nie. Jy moet maar bel as jy n sleep nodig het." title="Evil" border="">

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    Default Re: TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    thanks Casper
    Sal jou laat weet as die frustrasie net te veel raak
    Het darem nog net een keer van Lido hotel af tot by De Deur ge-idle - maar dit was nie lekker nie hoor

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    Default Re: TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    To the OP; Why not just borrow an ECU and then you will know if the problem definitely lies with the ECU?

    I'm not sure I'd trust an ecu with possible dry joints going forward.

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    Default Re: TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    Quote Originally Posted by NewLandy View Post
    To the OP; Why not just borrow an ECU and then you will know if the problem definitely lies with the ECU?
    I'm not keen on reprogramming someone's ECU's remote codes and then restoring it to order to return it - there is some costs to get that done (in my experience)
    But it does sound like an alternative route to investigate.
    I'm not sure I'd trust an ecu with possible dry joints going forward.
    I wouldn't be troubled since I'd rework all pins and then test for a few weeks to make sure all ok. The benefit however would be that many ECUs might be saved from being discarded and/or the prices charged by ECU refurbishers/repairers might be ratified to the point of becoming an option (I think they charge based on what the person with the issue's alternative costs are and not what it would cost to do the work) But I could be wrong...

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    Default Re: TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    Moved thread to better location

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    Default Re: TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    Quote Originally Posted by tak23bos4 View Post
    I'm not keen on reprogramming someone's ECU's remote codes and then restoring it to order to return it - there is some costs to get that done (in my experience)
    But it does sound like an alternative route to investigate.

    I wouldn't be troubled since I'd rework all pins and then test for a few weeks to make sure all ok. The benefit however would be that many ECUs might be saved from being discarded and/or the prices charged by ECU refurbishers/repairers might be ratified to the point of becoming an option (I think they charge based on what the person with the issue's alternative costs are and not what it would cost to do the work) But I could be wrong...
    The remote codes are stored in the BCU, not the ECU. It is really a 5 min job to program the BCU to match the ECU and vice versa when returning borrowed ECU, IRC its the "Learn Security code function"..For your purposes thats all that has to change, you can leave the injector codes as is , it wont have much effect and will confirm your ECU issue.

    I have a nanocom, if you get somebody with a ECU to switch out for a few days you may borrow my nanocom.

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    Default Re: TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    Hi Tak23bos4 Dankie vir jou interessante respons! Net om my integriteit bietjie te verdedig (en my eie gewete) - ek het darem vir die koper aan wie ek haar verkoop het mooi vertel van die probleem. En om my (en haar) eer bietjie te herstel - ek is regdeur Botswana CKGR en die Kaudom en 3 keer deur die Kaokoveld sonder enige probleme! Net 'n plesier! Niks is beter as die klank van 'n gesonde Td5 enjin nie. En niks beat die loutere plesier van sit op die dakrak van 'n Landy terwyl jy die sonsondergang aanskou met 'n glasie single malt nie!! But I digress! Ek het baie kopgekrap oor die oorsaak van die probleem. Dit het my voorgekom asof dit meestal in die winter gebeur - nadat sy nat geword het. Ek het dus vermoed dat dit iets te doen gehad het met water wat iewers in die electrics gekom het. Maar - die feit dat die limp mode dan tog deur 'n stamp (selfs 'n geringe stamp) veroorsaak word, het my laat besef dat 'n "los" elektriese komponent/konneksie IEWERS in die ekosisteem verantwoordelik is. Dit kan natuurlik binne die ECU (of ander circuit board?) wees. Ek het egter ook 'n moontlike los earth iewers vermoed, of 'n elektriese "loom" i.e. bundle van kabels wat iewers, waar dit deur 'n bulkhead gaan, dalk skaaf. Ek dink my volgende stap sou die vervanging van die bedrading tussen my TRC (throttle response control) en die ECU gewees het. But - that might still have been clutching at straws.... Ek moet se, myne het nooit geweier of gesukkel om op te start nie! Sterkte! En - NEVER GIVE UP!!

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    Default Re: TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    Quote Originally Posted by NewLandy View Post
    The remote codes are stored in the BCU, not the ECU. It is really a 5 min job to program the BCU to match the ECU and vice versa when returning borrowed ECU, IRC its the "Learn Security code function"..For your purposes thats all that has to change, you can leave the injector codes as is , it wont have much effect and will confirm your ECU issue.

    I have a nanocom, if you get somebody with a ECU to switch out for a few days you may borrow my nanocom.
    Thanks very much NewLandy - I really appreciate the info and the kind offer. Will let you know if I can find a ECU to test with

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    Default Re: TD5 ECU - dry joint suspected

    Just my 5c. When looking at circuit boards I find using my phones magnify function works better than a magnifying glass. Can see much clearer and the light/flash also helps to illuminate the circuit properly. iPhone X in my case.
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